Targeting Suspended Fish Outside of Deep Weed Line?

[Turtle Angler]

I've discovered a new pattern on my local lake that I'm really trying to utilize. As you can see in the included map, I fish a relatively small but deep glacial lake here in Wisconsin. Over the years, I've struggled to catch fish of any decent size outside of the pre-spawn window when they are up shallow. Recently I noticed that there is a narrow band of Green Cabbage (white-stem pondweed) growing in 14-18 feet of water on the edge of the lake's steep drop-off. The cabbage grows up to about 1 ft below the surface. This band extends circumferentially around the whole lake and not infrequently there are what I assume are predator fish on sonar on the outside edge in suspended at/cruising in 5-12 feet of water.

 

I'm wondering how you all would try to target these fish? I've thus far tried ripping a chatterbait through the weeds with mild success as well as positioning myself deeper and throwing a shaky head and dropshot back toward the weeds again with mild success. Thanks for any tips.

[gim]

Normally I would say a jerk bait for suspended fish but it sounds like there are too many weeds around for a lure with treble hooks.

 

I'd probably stick with a chatterbait to be honest if you are at least catching a few fish with it.

[Choporoz]

I've been told a number of times that I need to pull a crankbait parallel just outside the weedline.  I have a bunch of excuses as to why it hasn't worked for me, not least of which is my inability to position (and hold) my boat or kayak correctly.  I do a little better with a spinnerbait.   Sometimes a paddletail swimbait can do the trick.

[Turtle Angler]

3 minutes ago, gimruis said:

Normally I would say a jerk bait for suspended fish but it sounds like there are too many weeds around for a lure with treble hooks.

 

I'd probably stick with a chatterbait to be honest if you are at least catching a few fish with it.

 

Jerkbait is not a bad idea if I stay outside the weed edge. It's tough because the drop-offs are so steep and the contour lines are not very straight, so I can be sitting in that magical 14-18 ft of water and casting port will be 25 ft of water while casting starboard is 10 feet of water. Drift forward on a straigh line 25 yards and the depth is likely completely different.

 

Would you suggest at typical 5-8 ft-running jerkbait like a standard Vision 110 vs a deeper diving jerkbait?

3 minutes ago, Choporoz said:

I've been told a number of times that I need to pull a crankbait parallel just outside the weedline.  I have a bunch of excuses as to why it hasn't worked for me, not least of which is my inability to position (and hold) my boat or kayak correctly.  I do a little better with a spinnerbait.   Sometimes a paddletail swimbait can do the trick.

 

Lol, this is so true for me. How deep-running of a crankbait would you use in my situation? I'll also give a spinnerbait a try.

 

I've also gotten away from a swim jig the last few years in favor of a chatterbait, but I may try that as well.

[gim]

I would try a standard 110 sized version first and then work my way deeper if it doesn't produce any bites.  You'll probably need to snap it along at a higher pace this time of year being that the water is much warmer than early in the spring when the traditional pausing of a jerk bait is performed.

[Dwight Hottle]

Regarding the jerk bait try a regular 110 first & see if you have success. If not try a 110+1 or a deep diver lucky craft or rapala husky jerk or smithwick rogue. You always want to start shallow with suspending fish as they usually feed up. Then try deeper until you catch fish or the weeds become a problem. 
You could also try a top water bait over the weed tops. 

[FryDog62]

The suggestions for a jerk bait are very good. However, if weeds are a factor, try a 5 inch Caffeine Shad on a 4/0 Owner Twistlock Light hook - either weightless or 3/32 oz depending on depth.
 

Cast it out and let it swim on its own on semi-slack line for 4-5 seconds and/or until it makes contact with the weeds, then a couple twitches to bring it up again and longer pauses to let it do its self-swimming thing again. 
 

A hard jerkbait and steady cadence will get reaction bites, but the Caffeine Shad will draw out quality fish from the weedline like few other lures can do. When we had the cabin in Wisconsin, this was the #1 lure for both smallmouth and largemouth and no one else was doing it. 

[Turtle Angler]

2 minutes ago, FryDog62 said:

The suggestions for a jerk bait are very good. However, if weeds are a factor, try a 5 inch Caffeine Shad on a 4/0 Owner Twistlock Light hook - either weightless or 3/32 oz depending on depth.
 

Cast it out and let it swim on its own until it makes contact with the weeds, then a couple twitches to bring it up again and longer pauses to let it do its self-swimming thing again. 
 

A hard jerkbait and steady cadence will get reaction bites, but the Caffeine Shad will draw out quality fish from the weedline like few other lures can do. When we had the cabin in Wisconsin, this was the #1 lure for both smallmouth and largemouth and no one else was doing it. 

Thanks! What do you mean by “let it swim on its own”? Just reel it in? Let it fall? Something else?

[dodgeguy]

senko on outside weed edge or a yamatanuki. jerkbaits and spinnerbaits are good depending on their mood. deep cranks parallel to weeds are go especially with rock on outside edges.

[FryDog62]

5 hours ago, Turtle Angler said:

Thanks! What do you mean by “let it swim on its own”? Just reel it in? Let it fall? Something else?

First, you have to use that hook not just any wide gap. The 3/32 oz Owner is center weighted and keeps the plastic in a more horizontal swimming position.  The magic is the air bubble in the tail of the Caffeine Shad. It not only helps to keep it horizontal, but between that and the heavy salt content, it just undulates and swims forward slowly on its own.  
 

Very subtly, but after you cast it out let it do its thing on slack or semi-slack line for 4-5 seconds. It will usually swim a little, then slow down, change directions and swim awhile on its own again. Then give it 1 or 2 quick twitches, it will dart/rise and start its spiral/swimming action again. 
 

Sometimes you work it fast, other times fairly slow. Get it as close to the weedline as you can or until it makes contact and keep working it back.  Many strikes happen when it’s free swimming, so have slack in your line but not too much as you may have to set the hook quickly. 

[Reel]

42 minutes ago, FryDog62 said:

The suggestions for a jerk bait are very good. However, if weeds are a factor, try a 5 inch Caffeine Shad on a 4/0 Owner Twistlock Light hook - either weightless or 3/32 oz depending on depth.
 

Cast it out and let it swim on its own for 4-5 seconds and/or until it makes contact with the weeds, then a couple twitches to bring it up again and longer pauses to let it do its self-swimming thing again. 
 

A hard jerkbait and steady cadence will get reaction bites, but the Caffeine Shad will draw out quality fish from the weedline like few other lures can do. When we had the cabin in Wisconsin, this was the #1 lure for both smallmouth and largemouth and no one else was doing it. 

I use the same technique and it works really well-  A soft jerkbait close to grass , that hovers and glides, 10 feet down, not on the bottom, ... delicious !

 

I use Mustad Power Lock Spring hooks because you  can slide the weight and put it where you want to get that sliding action.

[Turtle Angler]

37 minutes ago, FryDog62 said:

First, you have to use that hook not just any wide gap. The 3/32 oz Owner is center weighted and keeps the plastic in a more horizontal swimming position.  The magic is in the air bubble in the tail of the Caffeine Shad. It not only helps to keeps it horizontal, but between that and the heavy salt content, it just undulates and swims forward slowly in its own.  
 

Very subtly, but after you cast it out let it do its thing on slack or semi-slack line for 4-5 seconds. It will usually swim a little, then slow down, change directions and swim awhile in its own again. Then give it 1 or 2 quick twitches, it will dart/rise and start its spiral/swimming action again. 
 

Sometimes you work it fast, other times fairly slow. Get it as close to the weedline as you can or until it makes contact and keep working it back.  Many strikes happen when it’s free swimming, so have slack in your line but not too much as you may have to set the hook quickly. 

Great stuff, FryDog62! I already have a belly-weighted (1/8 oz) 4/0 hook that seems like a decent starting hook for this. What kind of rod do you think is ideal for this technique?

16 minutes ago, Reel said:

I use the same technique and it works really well-  A soft jerkbait close to grass , that hovers and glides, 10 feet down, not on the bottom, ... delicious !

 

I use Mustad Power Lock Spring hooks because you  can slide the weight and put it where you want to get that sliding action.

What's your desired weight of hook for this technique?

[Bankc]

You've got two good options, and one bad one, as far as I'm concerned.  The two good options are fish inside the weeds with anything you can pull cleanly through.  This includes topwaters and anything that'll run shallow enough not to get down into the weeds.  Don't forget T-rigs and jigs as well as your chatterbait.  And soft swimbaits with the hook buried.  Or try a lipless and just rip it through. 

 

Option two is fish something like a crankbait or maybe umbrella rig just outside the weed line.  I'd use a heavy braid for this, as you'll likely get hung up a lot and need to rip it free.  The idea is to draw out the bass hiding in along the edge of the weed line. 

 

The bad option, in my opinion, would be to specifically target the suspended fish you see on your sonar just outside the weeds.  In my experience, these fish are sleeping and unless you're casting a net, you're not gonna catch them.  I'll catch one every once in a long while, but my time is usually better spent elsewhere. 

[Bird]

I spend a week every year on a lake similar to that lake " steep drops " except much deeper.

I've had great success with a wacky rigged finesse worm on a 1/16 head.

The idea is the bait with it's slow decent fluttering in the strike zone for a longer period induces a lot of bites.

Not directly in the grass but just off the edge.

[FryDog62]

53 minutes ago, Turtle Angler said:

Great stuff, FryDog62! I already have a belly-weighted (1/8 oz) 4/0 hook that seems like a decent starting hook for this. What kind of rod do you think is ideal for this technique?

What's your desired weight of hook for this technique?

I’ve tried other hooks and some are ok and some so-so. Some have too wide of a gap and the plastic seems to sag in the middle, and swimming action and hook up ratio sometimes suffer. The Owner seems just the right gap and although it’s a “Light” hook, I have never bent one out even when hooking pike/muskies or fishing heavy vegetation in Florida.
 

If I’m fishing outside weed edges or any depth at all, I use the 3/32 oz 4/0 hook… if I’m fishing shallow and/or skipping docks (Caffeine Shad skips extremely well) then it’s the weightless hook.  The 4/0 aligns perfectly with the 5 inch Caffeine Shad.
 

As far as rod, I think a medium fast or extra fast works well, a medium heavy might be too much. I actually use a 7 ft Daiwa Tatula Elite Ehrler rod which is a Medium/Medium Heavy extra fast with 12 fluorocarbon. The Tatula SV reel is great for skipping purposes. 
 

I would not recommend a moderate or parabolic rod, a friend of mine uses that and seems he either can’t react to quick strikes and is also unable to skip the lure very well. 
 

If you’ve got $270 to shell out, the new Splittail rod from ALX looks about perfect.  Although a ML it’s a plus closer to medium. 

[Turtle Angler]

9 minutes ago, FryDog62 said:

As far as rod, I think a medium fast or extra fast works well, a medium heavy might be too much. I actually use a 7 ft Daiwa Tatula Elite Ehrler rod which is a Medium/Medium Heavy extra fast with 12 fluorocarbon. The Tatula SV reel is great for skipping purposes. 
 

I would not recommend a moderate or parabolic rod, a friend of mine uses that and seems he either can’t react to quick strikes and is also unable to skip the lure very well. 
 

 

Perfect. I have a Dobyns Champion XP 734 with a Shimano Curado DC that should work great 

[FryDog62]

7 minutes ago, Turtle Angler said:

Perfect. I have a Dobyns Champion XP 734 with a Shimano Curado DC that should work great 

Experiment, may have to move down a notch in power from a 734… closer to a true medium.  

[casts_by_fly]

3 hours ago, Turtle Angler said:

 

Jerkbait is not a bad idea if I stay outside the weed edge. It's tough because the drop-offs are so steep and the contour lines are not very straight, so I can be sitting in that magical 14-18 ft of water and casting port will be 25 ft of water while casting starboard is 10 feet of water. Drift forward on a straigh line 25 yards and the depth is likely completely different.

 

Would you suggest at typical 5-8 ft-running jerkbait like a standard Vision 110 vs a deeper diving jerkbait?

 

Lol, this is so true for me. How deep-running of a crankbait would you use in my situation? I'll also give a spinnerbait a try.

 

I've also gotten away from a swim jig the last few years in favor of a chatterbait, but I may try that as well.

 

I've got a similar pond here- 30 acres, 35' deep glacial.  Weeds grow out to about 25' bottom depth and anything less than 15' they are to the surface.  last year I threw a DT16 in 20' of water and just skimmed the top of the grass to catch some.

 

[softwateronly]

1 hour ago, FryDog62 said:

Experiment, may have to move down a notch in power from a 734… closer to a true medium.  

This might be true, but the 734 is worth trying in my opinion.

 

@Turtle Angler

Some outlying winners for me in very similar water;

 

Heavy swim jig (1/2-1oz) w/ a 4-5" paddle tail.  I set up in the deep water, cast 5-10yds into the weeds preferably the bottom is the depth they are suspending at on the outside edge.  I swim it with reel bumps when it can get through.  When I hang it, I shake it with increasing force till it pops free.  Do this till the boat, I'm after the fish that are eating panfish, and they tend to be the big girls up north.  5 power Dobyns is one of my faves.

 

5/8oz preacher jig.  Set up in deep water, and in my mind's eye, I'm trying to pendulum/tight line/ surf it down thru the weed tops as they descend down the break.  When it lands, it's probably still in some weeds, I quickly lift up and reel as fast as possible 2-3 turns and repeat the glide.  Usually, this breaks free of the weeds, but @WRB told me about a cps spring and piece of trick worm over the hook point to help stay weedless.  This gets hammered with weight, the most tell tale tick, or there's just weight when you go to reel.  4 power loomis mbr action is my fave.  I've also had good luck late summer doing this with a 7" flutter spoon though I tend to work it faster to stay higher in the column.

 

1/2oz jig.  Fish it downhill as well, and I usually forgo my dragging and work it with double pops upward.  Things are best when I hang up in the weeds often.  I shake and shake till I can pop it.  Basically, stroking a jig in the cover instead of open water.

 

1/8oz 4-5" jig worm.  This is more finesse and needs a small hook to be able to pop free of the weeds, a #1 or #2 works best for me.  It's basically a slightly larger ned presentation.  I'm usually more of a 45 degree or parallel to the deep edge.  This year I've moved away from this technique toward the next one...

 

jighead minnow, mid strolling shake retrieve that is also downhill.  4-5" straight tail fluke style bait.  Two tone colors seem to be best; ie top green bottom clear, etc.  Owner range rollers and Gammy horizon heads have been my favorites.  Something in the 1.8g-3.5g, #2-1/0 open hook.  Between the small hook, light weight, and constant shaking this is surprisingly weedless.  With a slow retrieve but vigorous shaking it will dance over their heads, slowly descending, rolling back and forth, like a scrounger in suspended slow motion.  I've also been playing around with a large version, mostly retrieving uphill, though both work.  This is a 6-7" jerky J or spunk shad on a 5.2g horizon 2/0 LG head.  I cast 15-20yds past the weedline, give it about half the slack it needs to hit bottom, then start shaking after 5-8 seconds.  Once on bottom, I continuously shake as I slowly reel in.  If I hang, I keep shaking and pull hard thru, it's better than 50/50 that I'm still weed free.  If the shake weight feels different a couple hard snaps can free it and or trigger a bite.  A 6'9 M/F, 6'10 M/RF, and a 7'8 M/RF have been my best 4-5" combos, and a 6'6 MH/F has been the best with the 6-7".  You want a tip that can reverberate enough to not tire you out on the shaking.

 

I'm basically fishing electronically blind, so I can't say how they're positioned prior to my casts.  But I catch a lot of decent fish like this.  I really need precision and feel, so I do best when anchored.  Often I cycle through the techniques in one spot.  The swim jig and hair jig will attract the active feeders, and the jighead minnow seems to entice the lazier ones.  Good luck!

 

scott

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Turtle Angler]

20 minutes ago, softwateronly said:

This might be true, but the 734 is worth trying in my opinion.

 

@Turtle Angler

Some outlying winners for me in very similar water;

 

Heavy swim jig (1/2-1oz) w/ a 4-5" paddle tail.  I set up in the deep water, cast 5-10yds into the weeds preferably the bottom is the depth they are suspending at on the outside edge.  I swim it with reel bumps when it can get through.  When I hang it, I shake it with increasing force till it pops free.  Do this till the boat, I'm after the fish that are eating panfish, and they tend to be the big girls up north.  5 power Dobyns is one of my faves.

 

5/8oz preacher jig.  Set up in deep water, and in my mind's eye, I'm trying to pendulum/tight line/ surf it down thru the weed tops as they descend down the break.  When it lands, it's probably still in some weeds, I quickly lift up and reel as fast as possible 2-3 turns and repeat the glide.  Usually, this breaks free of the weeds, but @WRB told me about a cps spring and piece of trick worm over the hook point to help stay weedless.  This gets hammered with weight, the most tell tale tick, or there's just weight when you go to reel.  4 power loomis mbr action is my fave.  I've also had good luck late summer doing this with a 7" flutter spoon though I tend to work it faster to stay higher in the column.

 

1/2oz jig.  Fish it downhill as well, and I usually forgo my dragging and work it with double pops upward.  Things are best when I hang up in the weeds often.  I shake and shake till I can pop it.  Basically, stroking a jig in the cover instead of open water.

 

1/8oz 4-5" jig worm.  This is more finesse and needs a small hook to be able to pop free of the weeds, a #1 or #2 works best for me.  It's basically a slightly larger ned presentation.  I'm usually more of a 45 degree or parallel to the deep edge.  This year I've moved away from this technique toward the next one...

 

jighead minnow, mid strolling shake retrieve that is also downhill.  4-5" straight tail fluke style bait.  Two tone colors seem to be best; ie top green bottom clear, etc.  Owner range rollers and Gammy horizon heads have been my favorites.  Something in the 1.8g-3.5g, #2-1/0 open hook.  Between the small hook, light weight, and constant shaking this is surprisingly weedless.  With a slow retrieve but vigorous shaking it will dance over their heads, slowly descending, rolling back and forth, like a scrounger in suspended slow motion.  I've also been playing around with a large version, mostly retrieving uphill, though both work.  This is a 6-7" jerky J or spunk shad on a 5.2g horizon 2/0 LG head.  I cast 15-20yds past the weedline, give it about half the slack it needs to hit bottom, then start shaking after 5-8 seconds.  Once on bottom, I continuously shake as I slowly reel in.  If I hang, I keep shaking and pull hard thru, it's better than 50/50 that I'm still weed free.  If the shake weight feels different a couple hard snaps can free it and or trigger a bite.  A 6'9 M/F, 6'10 M/RF, and a 7'8 M/RF have been my best 4-5" combos, and a 6'6 MH/F has been the best with the 6-7".  You want a tip that can reverberate enough to not tire you out on the shaking.

 

I'm basically fishing electronically blind, so I can't say how they're positioned prior to my casts.  But I catch a lot of decent fish like this.  I really need precision and feel, so I do best when anchored.  Often I cycle through the techniques in one spot.  The swim jig and hair jig will attract the active feeders, and the jighead minnow seems to entice the lazier ones.  Good luck!

 

scott

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great stuff, Scott! I'll be trying most/all of those techniques.

 

 

So I just went out and tried to the Caffeine Shad technique. It's definitely a pattern! Caught 8 fish (7 bass, 1 pike) in about 40 minutes. That death spiral/tail action on the fall on slack line is amazing. The problem is that none were of any size (my lake is exclusively largemouth, no smallmouth). I wish StrikeKing made a 6-inch Caffeine Shad...

 

Anyone know of a 6" fluke option from another company that has the same tail action?

[softwateronly]

30 minutes ago, Turtle Angler said:

Great stuff, Scott! I'll be trying most/all of those techniques.

 

 

So I just went out and tried to the Caffeine Shad technique. It's definitely a pattern! Caught 8 fish (7 bass, 1 pike) in about 40 minutes. That death spiral/tail action on the fall on slack line is amazing. The problem is that none were of any size (my lake is exclusively largemouth, no smallmouth). I wish StrikeKing made a 6-inch Caffeine Shad...

 

Anyone know of a 6" fluke option from another company that has the same tail action?

The JDM world is full of this it seems.  The Deps Sakamata shad death spiral is the best i've found.  Hard part is finding a sakamata shad available for sale.  The 7" is definitely worth it.  3lbers have no problem demolishing it.  OSP dolive stick and fat stick have great horizontal fall with shimmy and get up to 6".  My wallet hurts.

 

scott

 

[FryDog62]

3 hours ago, FryDog62 said:

I’ve tried other hooks and some are ok and some so-so. Some have too wide of a gap and the plastic seems to sag in the middle, and swimming action and hook up ratio sometimes suffer. The Owner seems just the right gap and although it’s a “Light” hook, I have never bent one out even when hooking pike/muskies or fishing heavy vegetation in Florida.
 

If I’m fishing outside weed edges or any depth at all, I use the 3/32 oz 4/0 hook… if I’m fishing shallow and/or skipping docks (Caffeine Shad skips extremely well) then it’s the weightless hook.  The 4/0 aligns perfectly with the 5 inch Caffeine Shad.
 

As far as rod, I think a medium fast or extra fast works well, a medium heavy might be too much. I actually use a 7 ft Daiwa Tatula Elite Ehrler rod which is a Medium/Medium Heavy extra fast with 12 fluorocarbon. The Tatula SV reel is great for skipping purposes. 
 

I would not recommend a moderate or parabolic rod, a friend of mine uses that and seems he either can’t react to quick strikes and is also unable to skip the lure very well. 
 

If you’ve got $270 to shell out, the new Splittail rod from ALX looks about perfect.  Although a ML it’s a plus closer to medium. 

BTW - Owner hooks 30% off on TW right now ~

[Reel]

4 hours ago, Turtle Angler said:

Great stuff, FryDog62! I already have a belly-weighted (1/8 oz) 4/0 hook that seems like a decent starting hook for this. What kind of rod do you think is ideal for this technique?

What's your desired weight of hook for this technique?

I use Mustad Power Lock with the spring in size 5/0 with a 1/8 oz weight.  I use 5 inch baits like flukes and others in the same size.

 

I use spinning tackle because I seem to get more of that planing action with the rod down.  I use an MH 6 foot 8  foot rod with a large spinning reel and 20 pound braid with a 10 pound leader.

[JackstrawIII]

11 hours ago, Choporoz said:

I do a little better with a spinnerbait.

That was going to be my answer. Slow rolled spinner bait or swim bait along the edges of the weeds. 

[softwateronly]

I got to looking if you hadn't seen it...

 

https://www.tackledirect.com/strike-king-kvd-mcs7-magnum-caffeine-shad-lure.html

 

scott