BFS: Line Choice Isn't a Simple Thing to Figure Out

[Big Hands]

Verbosity and details are my blessing as well as my curse. If they are not your thing I understand.

 

I was reading another thread here about one angler's BFS-ish/Finesse line choice dilemma, and although the thought of glomming my situation onto his thread crossed my mind, I decided not to complicate their thread with my issues. So. . . .

 

I now have three BFS casting reels and have been enjoying this style of fishing, but as with many things, when things get toward the extremes, things can get complicated more than straight vanilla middle of the road gear.

 

I started with a Curado BFS casting reel and thought fifteen pound braid would be a smart choice, so I picked up a spool of Smackdown 15 lb braid and was off to the races. Or, so I thought. With me at the controls, I was having issues, especially with line dig after boating a fish, so I abandoned braid and tried some 7 lb Daiwa fluorocarbon line that worked much better for me than the Smackdown braid. 

 

Lately, I have simply reverted to the devil I know, which is 6 lb monofilament. It's not perfect, but I make it work for what I do. There is a bit more to it than I would prefer. I am also finding that, on a long cast (even with a 1/8 ounce weight), when I have the rod tip up higher than horizontal, the weight of the monofilament will often drag the bait towards me. I am theorizing that it is the weight of the monofilament (and perhaps any weight from the water that the monofilament has absorbed) that is causing this.

 

In my perfect world, I would be able to use braid (which weighs less than monofilament) with a fluorocarbon leader to maximize sensitivity, still have a relatively low degree of stretch, and would not have the tendency of dragging the bait towards me once I stop moving the rod and/or turning the reel handle. It wouldn't get line dig, and the knot would flow through the guides without hanging up (my two biggest issues with braid to fluorocarbon on my BFS setups). . . . In my perfect world.

 

My perfect world might only exist in my head. Or there might be a solution that requires more understanding of the tools and materials I am working with that would allow me to more effectively use the right materials with the tools I have, or get the right tools for the job.

 

I noticed that @bulldog1935 mentioned that it would be in our best interest to think about braid in terms of line diameter rather than 'xx' lbs test as that would allow for better accuracy and consistency when comparing lines. . . . At least that is my interpretation of what he suggested and that seems like a logical first step so we are comparing apples to apples. I might even be willing to have a (PE-lbs test-line diameter in mm and inches) comparison chart tattooed on my arm so i can refer to it quickly and easily.

 

I noticed that 15 lbs Smackdown has a claimed line diameter of .235 mm, whereas 15 lbs Power Pro has a claimed line diameter of .190 mm (20 lbs Power Pro has a claimed diameter of .230 mm). I have also discovered that Shimano owns Power Pro, and in the specs for the Curado BFS reel, the line capacity refers to Power Pro by name and states that the line capacity is 45 yards of 15 lbs Power Pro braid.

 

Part of me is also wondering if the line lay characteristics of the reels I am using work best with certain types and sizes of line. 

 

I would love to have 1,000 yard spools of all the different braids neatly arranged in my super-secret underground lair, but such is not my lot in life and it these days, it would cost a small fortune in time and money to conduct my own independent investigation into the secrets and tricks of the BFS world. So, I am trying the next best thing I know to do and that is to try to find shortcuts by tapping into the collective BFS wisdom and experience of my meticulous BR angling friends in order to separate the fly poop from the pepper so to speak. 

[bulldog1935]

@Big Hands - here's what doesn't sound right to me.  You're getting line dig on 0.23-mm dia braid with a factory-BFS reel that should already have increased LW pitch for wide line lay.  

BTW, I did begin with 600-yd spools of 832 when I began using braid.  

I fish that diameter on deep-spool Super Duty using 20-lb mono backing for a built-up spool arbor.  

 

Maybe you're not properly tensioning your line when you load it.  

Here's how I always load my lines - reel secure on a rod in a clamp rod holder; line through the 2 guides closest to the reel; line through a phone book with an adjustable weight; source spool on an axle in a vise.  

  

I can walk away from this and come back to it, and the line still has proper tension.  

 

As far as line differences, Jun Sonada used to recommend never use a coated braid on a baitcaster, for the reason that soft coatings make the braid more susceptible to line dig - this put Power Pro at the top of his list.  He also used to divide his PE Braid Spectra into two categories, Coated and Non-coated.  He can't do that any more in Japan, because they only sell coated braids now.  So he's adjusted to recommend hard-coated braids for use on BFS.  

One of the first coated braids Jun recommended was Yamatoyo Resin Sheller, which I found the coating didn't hold up, especially compared to most YGK braids, and Duel X-wire stood out as one of the first-best hard-coated braids - I just replaced a hard-fished 3-year-old X-wire spool with Varivas Si-X.  

I think Varivas wins across the board on braid coatings, though their hardest coating, Si-X, is still pretty expensive.  However, every one of my salt reels that needs new line gets Si-X, and can find good deals if you're already shopping in Japan and can add it into a cart with other items you need.  

Where I'm stacking spools, I still have old pieces of larger-diameter 832 for backing.  

 

What you gain with braid - no stretch, huge breaking strength, less drag through the water, and of course, increased cast distance at light end.  

... almost left out the most important thing, Totally Limp, NO MEMORY - this sent me to 100% braid, except on loaner tackle.  

[dodgeguy]

I would stay with fluorocarbon. Are you using a shallow pool?Shallow spool equals less digging. Somehow I can't picture braid with bfs. I hate leaders more than I dislike fluorocarbon line.

[BayouSlide]

My three BFS setups (Shimano Curado BCF reels) run 8# Sunline Sniper. Simplicity itself and never any problems.

[FishTank]

I use Sunline Sniper Invisible 5lb. So far it's been good line. I have it 3 of my set ups.

 

On a side note, I prefer braid to leader on light spinning gear. 

[PhishLI]

9 hours ago, Big Hands said:

I started with a Curado BFS casting reel and thought fifteen pound braid would be a smart choice, so I picked up a spool of Smackdown 15 lb braid and was off to the races. Or, so I thought. With me at the controls, I was having issues, especially with line dig after boating a fish, so I abandoned braid

Did you load the entire spool with braid? I reckon you could get about 300' of 15lb PP on that spool, which isn't really practical as you'll rarely throw anything other than a transfer weighted hard bait much farther than 100'-110' on a standard issue shorter BFS rod. BFS plastics, quite a bit less. With that, I opted for 110' of 15lb PP SS braid mainline to 6' fluoro leader. Got a few hard charging pickeral so far, and with no dig in. I got the SLX BFS specifically because I wanted to use straight fluoro, but found it troublesome at the time, so I switched over to braid and I'm much happier. However, the air temps were much colder then, so that might have made the fluoro not as well behaved as it might be. I'll try it again once the nighttime temps stop dipping below 60.

[newapti5]

I am not a BFS expert, but IMO 15lb braid is a bit too much for BFS reels. Heck, I mostly used 20lb braids on regular baitcasters. I have an Alphas Air with 10lb Smackdown, an Revo LTX with 10lb Berkley X9, and an Aldebaran BFS with 8lb Sunline Xplasma Asegai. All of them are used with 6-8lb fluoro leaders.  I cast them with 2-3 gram lures for trout fishing, and I don't recall any serious dig-in problems. 

Like others have mentioned, maybe the winding tension is not high enough when loading the line? Or you set the drag too high? 

[ghost]

I think I know why the braided line dig in the spool. Seems like you are spooling braided line to max spool amount. Don't spool the braid to the max, but 1/2 to 3/4 spooled. 

 

I had the same issue with my Curado BFS reel and from a BFS FB site found out that less is more when it comes to spooling with braided line.

 

I've used 15 lb Power Pro and 10 lb Power Pro in original and Super8Slick, 8 strand. and Bass Pro Shops XPS 8 strand. I do notice that the the 8 strand braid is quieter when reeling in than original Power Pro 4 strand.

[PhishLI]

1 hour ago, newapti5 said:

I am not a BFS expert, but IMO 15lb braid is a bit too much for BFS reels.

I don't necessarily disagree, but there are certain realities I have to deal with like heavy weeds. I trust 15lb here but not any less than that. Leaving a fish with a bait stuck in its face disturbs me. Aside from that, I'm really fishing the upper end, or BFS+.

[Big Hands]

12 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

Maybe you're not properly tensioning your line when you load it.  

Here's how I always load my lines - reel secure on a rod in a clamp rod holder; line through the 2 guides closest to the reel; line through a phone book with an adjustable weight; source spool on an axle in a vise.  

 

Initially filling the spool, I usually hold a rag over the line and pinch it between my thumb and forefinger to apply tension. I think the problems might begin when I actually fish. Retrieving line while fishing, I am not applying pressure to the line. Then, I get bit, set the hook, reel the fish in and this is when the 'reel' fun begins. I go to make my next cast and the line has dug in (probably from setting the hook). 

 

6 lbs mono gives me no such issues. Smackdown, whatever it is, is very supple to say the least. I have no idea if it is coated or not (doesn't seem like it, but what do I know?).

 

8 hours ago, dodgeguy said:

I would stay with fluorocarbon. Are you using a shallow pool? Shallow spool equals less digging.

 

3 hours ago, newapti5 said:

Like others have mentioned, maybe the winding tension is not high enough when loading the line?

 

Shimano Curado BFS has a very shallow spool. I can cast far enough to see a little bare spool or close to it. It truly has a capacity of 45 yards of 15 lb braid (Smackdown) at most. The other two BFS reels I have are the KastKing Zephyr BFS and the Kestrel BFS, which have similarly shallow spools.

 

3 hours ago, ghost said:

I had the same issue with my Curado BFS reel and from a BFS FB site found out that less is more when it comes to spooling with braided line.

 

I'm willing to try it.

 

2 hours ago, PhishLI said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but there are certain realities I have to deal with like heavy weeds. I trust 15lb here but not any less than that. Leaving a fish with a bait stuck in its face disturbs me. Aside from that, I'm really fishing the upper end, or BFS+.

 

I really feel like the Curado BFS is more of a BFS-ish reel than true BFS. I agree that I never feel good about breaking off a fish and leaving a hook in 'em.

 

5 hours ago, FishTank said:

I prefer braid to leader on light spinning gear. 

 

I have five spinning combos with 10 # braid with 6-8 lbs fluorocarbon leader, but I like fishing Texas rigs and shakeyheads on casting gear.

 

 

[softwateronly]

2 hours ago, Big Hands said:

 

 I think the problems might begin when I actually fish. Retrieving line while fishing, I am not applying pressure to the line. Then, I get bit, set the hook, reel the fish in and this is when the 'reel' fun begins. I go to make my next cast and the line has dug in (probably from setting the hook). 

 

That tracks with my braid use.  I pull some line out and pinch the line with my thumb and forefinger post cast and pre retrieve and reel to get to semi slack, then start my retrieve.  It's almost unconscious at this point, and serves me well on dig and loop knots, but I fish braid as a mainline for most everything.  Training myself to keep some tension allows for hassle free fishing, mostly.  

 

scott

[redmeansdistortion]

As @bulldog1935 was saying, proper tension is required when spooling thread line or dig-in can rear its head.  I use a Daiichi Seiko line recycler which has a knob to adjust tension.  I use my spring scale and set it for 2lb, just as if I were setting my drag.  The Daiichi Seiko is a nice tool and runs about $35 to $50 depending on where you get it, or you can get the knock-off version from AliExpress to your door for $20.  Once upon a time when I was less mindful of the tension used to spool a reel, I was getting dig-in with anything less than 0.235mm line.  It wasn't bad dig-in, but enough to where I'd have a little "bump" every so often when casting.

 

Another thing to think about is the line itself.  Power Pro is a 4 carrier line which means it isn't very round, but more a square shape which will give more potential to hang up on itself.  An 8 carrier or better would help remediate this since it is more round and smooth.  Regardless of the number of carriers, line stiffness should also be taken into consideration.  Stiffer lines aren't going to dig in as easily as the more limp stuff.  There are some lines I do not use on a baitcast reel simply because they are too limp, those get used on spinning reels where the line doesn't feed straight into the spool.  Daiwa J-Braid is the perfect example of this.  It's a fine line, but the thin diameter stuff is a no go for BFS for me.

[bulldog1935]

I take exception with pretty much all of the above that @Big Hands pulled out of post contexts. 

I built BFS-mod frogger and surf reel both fishing PE#2 in YGK WXP1, which has 45-lb breaking strength.  Again, we lose context talking about braid test instead of braid diameter.  I fish down to PE#1 in surf micro-jigging, which does count as a "normal BFS" niche, though an unusual BFS-CT reel. 

  

 

I filll all my shallow spools to max capacity, but I make sure the stacked line beneath is dig-proof.  If you do this properly, you can't fish a line dig.  If your system is working, it ain't broke.  But if it's not working, you need to look for something different.  

I also didn't consider braid before 832, so 8-strand, round, coated braid is the only braid I've ever fished.  The reason- I saw too many wind-knot catastrophies w/ my friends fishing yellow power pro on their Penn spinners.  

 

The only time I've ever experienced line dig was on 4200SS and SpiderWire copolymer - my daughter was catching giant sheepshead on the flats, which turn into UPS trucks trying to get back to deep water.  The SpiderWire, in its first and last fishing trip, extruded to half its diameter and sucked deep inside the spinning spool, shutting down my daughter's day - that's ok, we brought home a meal of schoolie specs.  That was 2010, btw.  

 

 

Also, backlash is so far from my memory, the only time I think about it is initially setting up a reel, finding the point of incipient backlash to start my brake set-up.  

But if backlash is something you think about, you probably shouldn't be fishing threadline braid on BFS reel. 

[msgf91]

I feel like the odd one out. I use 4 lb mono or FC with Light rods. With UL I have been using 2 lb trilene XL and recently switched to Daiwa Samurai Fluoro. I also saw on digitaka that the JDM Fluoro comes in different ratings like 2.5, 3, and 3.5 lb I might try it out when I order my next reel. As long as you don't burn the knot 2 lb can handle a lot. I think I might be a bit of a thrill seeker because it's a huge rush when you hook a good size fish with 2 lb FC. 

2 lb Daiwa Samurai Fluoro on a SS Air. I removed the pin for the drag clicker and I think it made the drag even smoother. But it could just be my imagination. 

[Big Hands]

2 hours ago, redmeansdistortion said:

As @bulldog1935 was saying, proper tension is required when spooling thread line or dig-in can rear its head.  I use a Daiichi Seiko line recycler which has a knob to adjust tension.  I use my spring scale and set it for 2lb, just as if I were setting my drag.  The Daiichi Seiko is a nice tool and runs about $35 to $50 depending on where you get it, or you can get the knock-off version from AliExpress to your door for $20. 

 

I recently picked a line spooling device that has a way to adjust tension. I also have a force gauge that I used to employ when adjusting door closers in a previous life. Sounds like I could use those two tools together for spooling line.

 

2 hours ago, redmeansdistortion said:

Once upon a time when I was less mindful of the tension used to spool a reel, I was getting dig-in with anything less than 0.235mm line.  It wasn't bad dig-in, but enough to where I'd have a little "bump" every so often when casting.

 

That is the issue I was initially having with Smackdown, and the 'bumps' were sometimes little, and other times, not-so-little, and the reason I abandoned my BFS/braid experiment until I could figure it out.

 

2 hours ago, redmeansdistortion said:

Another thing to think about is the line itself.  Power Pro is a 4 carrier line which means it isn't very round, but more a square shape which will give more potential to hang up on itself. 

 

Nice of Shimano to (not) acknowledge this when they specifically use the trade name POWERPRO in the specs for the Curado BFS (yes, I am being sarcastic here).

 

3 hours ago, redmeansdistortion said:

An 8 carrier or better would help remediate this since it is more round and smooth.  Regardless of the number of carriers, line stiffness should also be taken into consideration.  Stiffer lines aren't going to dig in as easily as the more limp stuff.  There are some lines I do not use on a baitcast reel simply because they are too limp, those get used on spinning reels where the line doesn't feed straight into the spool.  Daiwa J-Braid is the perfect example of this.  It's a fine line, but the thin diameter stuff is a no go for BFS for me.

 

PowerPro and J-Braid are the two braids I use most on my spinning reels, so although not perfect, it's hard to know that there are better solutions out there without being willing to fork out a lot of money and time to try all of the options available for both reel types.

 

2 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

I take exception with pretty much all of the above that @Big Hands pulled out of post contexts. 

 

Thank you for being willing to provide useful feedback. I am here to learn as I have obviously been doing things in a way that has made braid untenable for me on BFS rigs.

 

2 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

Again, we lose context talking about braid test instead of braid diameter. 

 

I meant to include a disclaimer regarding my reference to braid and test strength being that I referred to it in that way, but I was only doing so for line I have used , and intend to convert to line diameter or PE going forward. That is why I included this quip in my OP (I should have made that clear):

 

19 hours ago, Big Hands said:

I might even be willing to have a (PE-lbs test-line diameter in mm and inches) comparison chart tattooed on my arm so i can refer to it quickly and easily.

 

2 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

I filll all my shallow spools to max capacity, but I make sure the stacked line beneath is dig-proof.  If you do this properly, you can't fish a line dig.  If your system is working, it ain't broke.  But if it's not working, you need to look for something different.  

 

That is why I am here, hat in hand, looking for solutions.

 

2 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

I also didn't consider braid before 832, so 8-strand, round, coated braid is the only braid I've ever fished.  The reason- I saw too many wind-knot catastrophies w/ my friends fishing yellow power pro on their Penn spinners.  

 

This is useful information, and maybe worthy of it's own 'thread'. . .

 

2 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

Also, backlash is so far from my memory, the only time I think about it is initially setting up a reel, finding the point of incipient backlash to start my brake set-up.  

But if backlash is something you think about, you probably shouldn't be fishing threadline braid on BFS reel. 

 

I'm going to have to mull this one over. Backlash seems like one of those ever present facts of life inherent to any baitcasting reel. I can cast most of my reels most of the time without backlashing, but if I have a moment when I forget about casting certain baits into the wind or I'm not mindful to make adjustments when the weight of a bait changes significantly (on a BFS combo, that can be a 1/16 ounce change that suddenly becomes more challenging). If you're saying that you are able to set up a reel, and then get maximum distance and then not be concerned again about backlash, then I applaud that, and that is what I am always hoping to achieve. We all have to start somewhere and be willing to go through the learning process to get there.

 

Thank you to both of you for taking the time to respond thoughtfully.

[bulldog1935]

@Big Hands The solution is having 100% thumb in your pocket (more accurately, a mm from your spool).  Even if you're not using thumb, keeping it so close you feel the "fuzzies" of incipient backlash and can react.  If you're using your thumb right, it's always the final elevation on your cast distance, so it should already be there to adjust spool speed as needed.  

 

40 years ago, I was casting this weightless (of course no end tension) and my forward centrifugal cast PO'd two different guides, because I consistently outdistanced their weightless spinning cast (while they were trying to correct my cast error).  The physics of all of this has always been intuitive for me, but my thumb has been educated through experience.  

Whatever it is, I can cast it.  If you want some serious thumb skill, play with an antique Meek or Talbot:  

Or you can do like @TnRiver46 and cast an old Ambassadeur with all the LW parts removed.  

 

If it takes 100% thumb and casts 1/8 oz into next week, it makes me giggle.  If I take the same reel and modify it for BFS-threadline w/ mag brake and no thumb, bringing working weight below 2 g, so much the better.  

 

Honestly, I only remember 2 backlashes - of course I know there were more in 50 years - the first time I cast my neighbor's Ambassadeur and swore I would never backlash again.  Second was April 2018 when I had a single line wrap on my rod tip (plus casting into wind).  Plugged in my back-up reel and fished a great morning.  

[Fishing_Rod]

Greetings All,

Thank You to each of you for the helpful and interesting contributions on this thread. Good information to know especially as I am only just beginning to develop an understanding of bait cast reel operations and use. Yes, a relative new guy at this along with BFS too. I trying to develop the ability to cast those lighter weight bait packages using either the BFS or a traditional bait cast configuration. So far I'm doing, OK. I'm at that learning phase where there is a very deliberate and diligent approach most of the time.

 

I still have those occasional "moments". The other weekend when the wind wasn't blowing at such a crazy level, I managed to get on the water and use the BFS for a bit. Things were going reasonably well as the spring activity level is quite high. Then during a moment of indiscretion I set up for a low angle side cast hoping to put the soft plastic in the right spot next to an over hanging tree limb. Nope! Not going to happen when you manage to snag the bait on the end of your paddle.

Oh bother... Just calmly set it aside, I'll fix it later. I'll just use the other fishing rigs available.

During this "learning" phase I'm building a familiarity using mono. At some point when my comfort level supports it, I'll explore braid. Till that time I'm taking notes on the information from the group. Be well and Cheers!

 

[bulldog1935]

@Fishing_Rod after 45 years, evaluating what you do with your thumb is just hard as describing it, because the muscle memory has become a reflex.  

I get those nasty bumps all the time (try practicing skip casting under shrubs in your back yard).  

The result is always a full-thumb-clamp on the spool.  

I'm sure somewhere in the past, I got the backlash, too, but the automatic math is something like, "this isn't going to work, stop, start over will be a better result"

 

[Start Over] > [Follow Through]

[Fishing_Rod]

Hi @bulldog1935 and et al.,

Yes, do it again, only better, right?

 

I'm getting it sorted out. Now I just make sure to tuck in the paddle rather than having it just laying across my lap. Live and learn. Oh, so ready for the weekend to get here as I'm stuck dealing with document purgatory...

 

Be well and Cheers!

[bulldog1935]

if you don't backlash, you get lotsa free tries.  

[TOXIC]

It’s posts like this that make me glad my only consideration is what lb test mono I want to spool.  😂😎🤣

[bulldog1935]

me too

if I had had been schtupping w/ a backlash, wouldn't have cast to this jumping bait - 28" speckled trout visit your boat about 1/ 25 years.  

[Motoboss]

On my three BFS reels, Curado SLX, I use 10# Power Pro and a 3’ fluro leader on the worm rig only. When filling a spool completely full while running it through a wet towel, cleaning the line as well as applying tension and guiding it to assure an even wrap as possible.

Haven’t had any issues ,,,but then again haven’t caught anything much over a couple pounds on the bfs rigs so not sure what a 6 pounder would do. But pretty confident with proper drag it will work out fine.

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

I think I've seen for certain bfs shallow spools the use of stretchy lines fc or mono is restricted- braid only. There a chance it could cause deformation cause the spool so thin and the fc tightens after being stretched.

[Lead Head]

@Big Hands

a lot of good advice for you so far, but keep in mind that the TX rigs and shakey heads you are using often introduce slack into your spool as you work them back in. I often have to either strip line, or make a dead cast and pinch line while reeling it in to tighten the line back up when using bottom contact and thin braid.