Titanium Guides

[Lucky Craft Man]

I was thinking about purchasing a rod with Titanium Guides.  I would use the rod for frog fishing.  I though that the titanium guides would stand up tp the abuse of fishing heavy slop with braided line.  If anyone has used them, please let me know what you think.  Thanks.

[Raul]

You are overcomplicating things that aren 't so, good quality modern guides found in good quality modern rods are made to withstand anything thrown at them with modern lines specially if guides are Fuji guides. Don 't think about the guides, think about the type of rod you need: Extra fast action / MH or H action, 6'6" or more in length with 9 or more inches or rear handle and plenty of backbone so you can muscle fish out of the thick stuff wether they want or not.

[Lucky Craft Man]

The rod I am looking at is 7' long, Heavy power, fast action, but for $80 more, I can get titanium guides.  So I was wondring if this was worth it.

[Siebert Outdoors]

I hate to admit it, but Raul is right. ;D

I've got 3 bcr's and 1 bsr with those recoil guides.  No problems at all.  I throw 30lb braid on the 855 for heavy jiggin or frogs mainly.  I have not experienced any complications at all.  The braid on recoil guides is noisy but I think it sound pretty cool when you cast.  

[Raul]

The rod I am looking at is 7' long, Heavy power, fast action, but for $80 more, I can get titanium guides. So I was wondring if this was worth it.

If what you are looking for is a techique/bait specific rod then get that: FGR863C

[flechero]

Hold on guys... before we talk him out of this, lets be sure we know what he is talking about.  

Are we talking Fuji Ti frames with SiC inserts (or AmTak Ti with Nanolite rings) or Titanium nitride coated rings or jusr REC recoil guides???  There is a big difference between those and honestly I might pay the difference depending on the rod and what the "standard" guides were and which Ti guides we are talking about.

You are overcomplicating things that aren 't so, good quality modern guides found in good quality modern rods are made to withstand anything thrown at them...

But so are good quality reels and you seem to be able to justify a fleet of exotics, right?  

I'm as much of a taclke junkie as any of you guys but I also realize that sometimes there is a difference.  We could all catch fish on a $50 wal-mart combo, but most of us don't...

If anyone has used them, please let me know what you think.

I have a few rods with the Fuji Ti framed SiC guides.   I also have a frog blank on order and it will also have them on it.  Why?  Because they are incredibly light and tough...   I like them on the heavier rods but actually prefer Alconites on the other stuff.

[Siebert Outdoors]

I should have asked this in the first post, Fletchero brought up some excellent points.  Leave it to a rod builder

What rods are we looking at?

[Raul]

I 'm pretty shure he 's talking about Ti Recoil guides, not Ti coated guides.

[Guest DavidGreen]

Happy Holidays!

Personally I would save the $80.

Hardloy, Alconites, they all will stand up to braids. I cannot see spending $80 for guides because they are supposed to be lighter. Especially when the weight is so minuscule that the average angler wouldn't be able to tell anyway.

Just my .02¢

Tight Lines!!!  

[MickD]

I agree with reelmech.  You will never see the advantage of spending $80.  I've been making some rods recently and weighing all the components on a postal scale.  The difference between Ti framed guides and stainless is almost indetectible.  Use a good quality guide from the major manufacturers, and if you want a little reassurance for braid, put a Si C or nanolite tiptop on the end of the rod.  It takes the abuse, the rest of the guides take very little.

If you are talking about Recoil guides, I know little about them, but they might make sense if you are very tough on the guides, and tend to tear them off.  I don't.

[flechero]

You will never see the advantage of spending $80

I cannot see spending $80 for guides because they are supposed to be lighter

I would bet that in 80%-90% of the cases, you guys are right... however, that still leaves 10%-20%. Weight is only one factor... you also must consider strength, durability, corrosion resistance and finish. I agree that $80 is a little steep but that's a percieved value and probably not too far off of the retail price. However, his original question did not consider the price difference.

I've been making some rods recently and weighing all the components on a postal scale. The difference between Ti framed guides and stainless is almost indetectible.

Yeah, what's a gram or two in the big scheme of things, right?

Here's something for you to try...

Take one of your rods with or without a reel on it and then balance it (tape lead weights on the butt until it balances) at the reel on a fulcrum. Now, tape a penny (2.5 grams after 1982) to the tip top and re-balance the rod... How much weight was required to compensate for the penny? I just did this in the garage to get a base line comparison. I Took an MBR784 (MH 6'6") and balanced at the reel seat hood and with one little penny, I had to add exactly 3/4 oz of lead to re-balance!! Now try it with a 7' rod if you used a 6'6" rod the first time... it gets worse. And if you have ever added lead or tungsten to a rod butt to balance it, 3/4 oz is a considerable difference and is certainly noticable in pure weight when fishing all day. And since a frog rod is something I think most people would use for other techniques also, I would certainly consider Ti frames, if they are within your budget.

You see, tiny amounts of weight out on the rod make big differences back at the butt. Add to that, the other factors (strength, durability, corrosion resistance, finish) and I would argue that for a certain percentage of people and rods that titanium does in fact make sense. In fact, considering the abuse factor, I would be more likely to use Ti on a rod like this for strength and durability than weight savings. I consider myself pretty gentle on rods, and even I knock the occasional insert out... but I haven't done it on Ti frames yet... and haven't bent any down yet. They are noticable stronger to me.

DanekM,

I'm not picking on you so please don't take any of this personally, your post was just perfect to illustrate the point I wanted to make.

I'll loop back to cost for one final comment. It has long been said (in reference to expensive rods) that small gains in sensitivity or weight reduction are disproportionately larger (more expensive) as you move up... this thread is just another example of that concept. Many people can't see the value in high $ rods, some can... it's all personal preference.

And if anyone is wondering, No, I don't get kickbacks from the chimp.  

[Lucky Craft Man]

To be more specific, I am looking at the Cabelas XML 7' Heavy action rod (which is on sale for $99.99) or the Cabelas XML Ti 7' Heavy action rod (sold for $179.99), which has the Titanium Recoil guides.  This rod will be used for fishing frogs in the slop, carolina rigs, and for lighter swimbaits (like storms wild eye).  Someone mentioned the G Loomis frog rod, which I liked, but was wondering how it would be for swimbaits.  The Cabelas Rods are rated up to 2-1/4 oz lures, while the G Loomis Frog Rod is rated up to 1 oz.  I am a big fan of Cabelas XML rods and I have many of them.  I was wondering if sepnding the extra money for the XML Ti is worth it.  Thanks for any advice I receive.  

[MickD]

Re: I had to add exactly 3/4 oz of lead to re-balance!

and tiny amounts of weight out on the rod make big differences back at the butt.

If you start weighing the guides and checking the differences, you will find   the weight difference between good quality stainless steel frame single foot guides and titanium frame single foot guides is of the order of a few hundreths of an ounce.  The  blanks have a larger impact on the feel of the rod, by far.  Note that I'm not talking about the kind of guides you find on Ugli Sticks or cheap rods, I'm talking about the difference between good Fuji guides and titanium framed Fuji or Amtech titanium/nanolite guides.

You will probably never find differences in guide sets that will come anywhere close to 3/4 ounce, unless you are talking some heavy salt water rods.  Keep in mind that the biggest guides are closest to the butt making the small differences in the biggest guides less important.  If the 30mm  guide were on the end of the rod, then it probably would be a different story.

If you want the ultimate, go with titanium.  If I can get a good deal on them, I do.  But I still maintain it is essentially overkill.  I would rather go up $80 on a blank or rod than spend $80 for titanium guides.  

[flechero]

I'm talking about the difference between good Fuji guides and titanium framed Fuji or Amtech titanium/nanolite guides.

Ok, then check out these weights... (these are from other builders on RBO using gun powder scales and or lab balance beams, claimed to be accurate to .001 grain or .0001 gram)

A CLAG7 weighs 3.9 grains. A BLAG7 weighs 3.7 grains. A LSG7 weighs 3.1 grains. A TLSG7 weighs 2.4 grains. A TLSG 6 weighs 1.9 grains.

A very noticable difference even on the small guides.

Single foot spin Fuji TYSG/American NIA

Size 20 1.75 / 2.03

Size 16 1.15 / 1.29

Size 12 0.70 / 0.75

Size 10 0.46 / 0.56

Size 8 0.28 / 0.37

Single foot fly Fuji TLSG/American NIF

Size 6 0.12 / 0.21

All weights measured in grams on a laboratory balance accurate to 0.0001 gram.

Just using the size 6 fly guides, you are looking at the better part of a gram over the rod... almost 1/2 a penny. And that's between Fuji and AmTak Titanium frames...

The blanks have a larger impact on the feel of the rod, by far.

Agreed but we are talking about a different set of guides on the same blank.

You will probably never find differences in guide sets that will come anywhere close to 3/4 ounce,

I think the numbers above speak for themselves.

And here is a spinning example just to show the extreme. Imagine the difference with other guides... Alconites are some of the lightest non-titanium guides made!

Titainium frame SIC - 30-16-10-8L-7-7-6-6-6- #6 tiptop = 107.5 grains

Black Frame Alconite - 30-16-10-8L-7-7-6-6-6-#6 tiptop = 158 grains = about 47% heavier

Difference 3.272 grams- remember that the original 3/4 oz came from 2.5 grams of tip weight...

To deny the difference is noticable would be irresponsible, to say that you don't agree that there is $80 worth of value is perfectly fine.

To those of us that balance rods, these differences are much bigger and more valuable...

To the original poster, sorry for the rant, but I think it does give you some more detail on the original question.

[MickD]

Re:A CLAG7 weighs 3.9 grains. A BLAG7 weighs 3.7 grains. A LSG7 weighs 3.1 grains. A TLSG7 weighs 2.4 grains. A TLSG 6 weighs 1.9 grains.

and since a grain = .002285 ounce, the difference is a max of 1.5 grains or about .0035 ounces.  3 1/2 1000's of an ounce!

The difference between two blanks of different graphites is easily .25-.5 ounce, or about 100-200 grains.  

While the percentage difference between the guides mentioned is arithmatically significant, it would take the princess with the pea under 10 mattresses to feel the difference.  It is difficult to believe the difference is functionally significant.

I still maintain that $80 will be better spent on better graphite than on the insignificant difference in mass between the better and the best (for mass) guides.  And I think that was sort of what the original question was about-whether titanium guides for $80 extra made sense.

As you said, just my opinion.  But the only way to tell is to build up two identical rods with the different guides, and hope that you wound the guides identically, finished them identically, had no differences in the cork or other handle material, and the blanks were identical.  Then fish them.  Not a bad idea, because I expect you would have two terrific rods instead of just one.  All in the name of science!

regards, Mick

[flechero]

Mick,

I think it's obvious we aren't going to agree on the value of the Ti guides and that's ok.  In the example of fuji vs amtak ti guides being about a gram different for the set... that would translate into something between 1/4 and 1/2 oz difference in butt weight to balance it out.  My perception of significant and yours are just different.  Since I balance out some of my rods to 45 degrees neutral in hand, I like the idea of not adding another lead weight to the butt...  I do feel it.

I still maintain that $80 will be better spent on better graphite than on the insignificant difference in mass between the better and the best (for mass) guides.  And I think that was sort of what the original question was about-whether titanium guides for $80 extra made sense.

I don't disagree with you on blanks but he doesn't build rods and already said he was buying the XML or XML TI rod so the only variable was going to be the guides, a different blank wasn't an option.  So our disagreement is whether another $80 is a good value for them

and since a grain = .002285 ounce, the difference is a max of 1.5 grains or about .0035 ounces.  3 1/2 1000's of an ounce!

Yes and no... that difference is only on one single the tlsg 7, the larger the guides the greater the difference and then a factor of x # of guides.  It's not the # of grains that is shocking, it's the effect of those when levered out... just as the penny needed 3/4 oz to balance out.  

But the only way to tell is to build up two identical rods with the different guides, and hope that you wound the guides identically, finished them identically, had no differences in the cork or other handle material, and the blanks were identical.

I've done it with the same rod, I taped up and marked guide locations with a pencil... taped on weights to balance and then redid it with the Ti frames and again checked for balance, there was a significant difference.  I just used the same tape strips for the 2nd set of guides so the weight was consistant.  I never thought I was going to debate my findings on the internet so I didn't bother weighing the actual difference in added lead.  ...lol

You have had me thinking a lot for a day off of work!  ...lol  

Best,

Keith

[vtbassin]

Thanks for the interesting weight information Keith.  

The first rod I re-built I took off the factory guides and replaced them with Alconites. I also removed the front grip.  The rod felt much lighter in hand when finished.  I did not weigh it.  I have used Alconites on all of the rods I have built.  (5 total :) big deal right?  Now I think I will give some thought to the Titainium guides for my next project.  Flechero's physics lesson is right on.  The more weight you put out at the end of that 7 foot lever arm the more counter weight needs to be added at the end of the handle if you want to balance.

;D "How much am I willing to spend?" ;D is something we must decide for ourselves.  ;D But all of the different points of view I get to see here make it a good place to spend some time.  ;D

:)Merry Christmas

George