Kayaks and Livescope - Done Deal

[Koz]

Last year I fished some MLF Phoenix Series events as a co-angler and while it was mostly fun and interesting, I also found it frustrating not controlling my own destiny on the water. So this winter I bought an Old Town Sportsman Autopilot with the plan to fish two Bassmaster Kayak Series events (Lake Murray and Lake Eufaula) and a handful of Bass Nation events. I'll still fish 2-3 local MLF events as well.

 

But as I gear up for this season and check out what other competitors are doing, it seems that just about everyone is running some sort of forward facing sonar. Heck, a lot of guys are running TWO FFS units on their kayaks!

 

This post isn't to debate the merits or the morality of FFS. It's here and it's here to stay. I'd venture to say that almost every boat in the Bassmaster Elite and the MLF Bass Pro Tour are running FFS. But what I want to know is how many of you kayak guys are running FFS?

 

I have no illusions (or delusions) of giving up my day job and making a living off of fishing. I do this for fun and for PR for my hotel. And the fact is that I'll be 60 years old this year and I want to do stuff like this while I'm still in good health. But I'd also like to be competitive out there and that's going to be tough, especially because I have never fished most of these lakes before.

 

And of course, it's quite an investment. Going with the older Garmin Livescope and a new head unit alone is about $2,500, then another few hundred for the transducer mount, at least another couple of hundred for wiring and through the hull wiring mounts, then the mounting for the new head unit. I have more than enough LIFPO batteries to power everything, so I don't need to invest more there.

 

I'm not complaining about the money, just pointing out that it's yet another investment (Kayak Monkey?). By the time I total up the kayak, electronics, trailer, and equipment I'm thinking that maybe I should have just bought a Tracker boat instead! (Not really, I do enjoy the kayak life).

 

So, back to the topic at hand. Are some of you guys, especially kayak tournament anglers, taking the plunge and putting FFS on your kayaks? If so, are you happy with your decision to do that?

[casts_by_fly]

I am. Helix 9 and mega live. I put it in a year ago so I’m still learning. I’m comfortable with it but not an expert yet. I don’t fish tournaments, I just fish for fun. I like it. I wouldn’t say it’s changed my life yet, but I do use it. I think as I learn more I’ll use it better and more. Most of last year I used it to see a live image of the cover and structure below and in front of me. A few times I used it to target fish I could see on the screen (which mostly ended up being perch). 

 

hummingbird had a rebate going at the time, but your numbers are roughly right for me. If you want to go lvs32 and a 93uhd I think you could get away at $2k all in. I had a really great bonus (the first in my professional life like that) so I splurged on myself. I also sold my helix 7 for a couple hundred bucks to recoup some cash. Like Daubs said in his post about “buying the boat now”, I bought the ‘boat’ now. 

[Koz]

12 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

I am. Helix 9 and mega live. I put it in a year ago so I’m still learning.

 

 From what I've seen, to get the most out of it there's a decent sized learning curve not only on reading the electronics, but also understanding what the fish are really doing.

 

I think that if I do splurge and get it I would keep my Helix 7 onboard for the mapping (I have Lakemaster Premium) and down imaging and side imaging.

 

With that, I'd move the units off the rail. I've seen some folks run a bar across the width of the kayak and attach the units so they are right in front of you up near the trolling motor. But since I like to sit and fish I think they would get in my way. 

 

I thought about somehow mounting them lower, just off the deck, but I'm not sure if that's feasible.

[casts_by_fly]

11 minutes ago, Koz said:

 From what I've seen, to get the most out of it there's a decent sized learning curve not only on reading the electronics, but also understanding what the fish are really doing.

for sure. With anything new there is a learning curve. The pros make the look easy but they have been doing it 5 days a week for 4 years now. I’ve spent a few outings when the fish weren’t cooperating or maybe I wasn’t motivated to figure them out to play with the electronics and figure IT out. Some trips I turn it on and forget about it to focus on the fish. 
 

 

11 minutes ago, Koz said:

 I think that if I do splurge and get it I would keep my Helix 7 onboard for the mapping (I have Lakemaster Premium) and down imaging and side imaging.

 

With that, I'd move the units off the rail. I've seen some folks run a bar across the width of the kayak and attach the units so they are right in front of you up near the trolling motor. But since I like to sit and fish I think they would get in my way. 

 

I thought about somehow mounting them lower, just off the deck, but I'm not sure if that's feasible.

I thought about that. I had a helix 7that I thought about keeping for side imaging and mapping to dedicate the helix 9 to live imaging. There was no point. The helix 9 has three presets.  Mine are set to live, side plus nav, and side/di/2d.  The rest are a couple button presses away. I never need to see live imaging with anything other than navigation (which is only occasionally).   I don’t use live while motoring full speed. That’s what side is for. I don’t have a scenario where I need two things on two different units at the same time. 
 

also, if you pull in two units plus live imaging you now also need a black box or networking hub of some type. The helix 7 won’t take live imaging. Not sure which model you have or if it’s an ‘n’ model.  If not then you can’t network them. If you’re not going to network them, then you’re running a double setup. Not impossible just more complicated. 

 

[Susky River Rat]

Kristine Fischer said how almost all the anglers in the series are running FFS. She also said that her kayak rig is 19,500. Mind blowing what kayak anglers are spending on something that doesn’t have a gas motor on it. If that’s what you enjoy have at it. 

[Koz]

8 hours ago, casts_by_fly said:

for sure. With anything new there is a learning curve. The pros make the look easy but they have been doing it 5 days a week for 4 years now. I’ve spent a few outings when the fish weren’t cooperating or maybe I wasn’t motivated to figure them out to play with the electronics and figure IT out. Some trips I turn it on and forget about it to focus on the fish. 
 

 

I thought about that. I had a helix 7that I thought about keeping for side imaging and mapping to dedicate the helix 9 to live imaging. There was no point. The helix 9 has three presets.  Mine are set to live, side plus nav, and side/di/2d.  The rest are a couple button presses away. I never need to see live imaging with anything other than navigation (which is only occasionally).   I don’t use live while motoring full speed. That’s what side is for. I don’t have a scenario where I need two things on two different units at the same time. 
 

also, if you pull in two units plus live imaging you now also need a black box or networking hub of some type. The helix 7 won’t take live imaging. Not sure which model you have or if it’s an ‘n’ model.  If not then you can’t network them. If you’re not going to network them, then you’re running a double setup. Not impossible just more complicated. 

 

It would be a dual setup as my Helix 7 does not support live imaging. The fact is, when I bought my Helix I never dreamed that I would be considering live imaging.

 

That was a mistake. Heck, that’s been the story of my kayak fishing - not planning a fully upgradable path, from the kayak itself to the accessories and electronics.

 

Learn from my mistakes, fellow anglers, and save yourself a bunch of money.

 

 

[FryDog62]

Koz, I'm in your exact boat... aka kayak AP120. Similar age, same ambitions... I had been planning on my first Kayak Bassmaster tournament at Lake Murray and maybe one other. Life happens and we moved 2000 miles and I started a new consulting role Jan 1 so doesn't look like the plan at least for this year. 

 

Yes, I took the Livescope plunge last year. I had it on my bass boat before moving and couldn't imagine exploring new water on my kayak without it. I have a Garmin 93x and a Fishing Specialties mount. The side imaging for the Garmin transducer I have wasn’t as good as my Helix 7 so I have both set up.  Hard to beat Humminbird SI in my opinion... and I believe Livescope+ (which is generation 3 technology to be superior to Mega Live which is Gen1). 

 

I really don't like the side mount electronics so I DIY'd my own center mount for about $80. I couldn't be happier with it - its light, sits low and out of the way and is incredibly sturdy. The acid test on a center mount is if you could fall on it (it happens) and not bend/break.  This passes that test and other aftermarket options I've seen I'm not sure (no way on the Hobie rail mount but maybe on the Sasquatch bar). 

 

And yes, the kayak monkey is real... 

[gim]

4 hours ago, Susky River Rat said:

almost all the anglers in the series are running FFS. She also said that her kayak rig is 19,500. Mind blowing what kayak anglers are spending on something that doesn’t have a gas motor on it.

That is mind boggling.

 

But you gotta keep up with the Jones's.

 

In a tournament or Elite Kayak series, I could see it.  Not for the average weekend warrior though.  You might as well get a boat if you're gonna spend that.

[DaubsNU1]

Go for it @Koz!! I'm still learning my Helix 9's in the new boat. Someday I hope to add FFS. 

 

Had Garmin in my old Tin Boat, but moved to Humminbird for the new boat. 

[Susky River Rat]

@gimruis obviously  she is fishing the big tournaments. That’s half of what my boat cost out the door. I have have about $1600 wrapped up in graphs and $3500 in a TM. I know most people are spending way more than $1600 in one graph. She said her kayak alone was 6500. I know it happens in all things where something starts out cheap and fun than gets expensive and serious. 

[Koz]

2 minutes ago, Susky River Rat said:

@gimruis obviously  she is fishing the big tournaments. That’s half of what my boat cost out the door. I have have about $1600 wrapped up in graphs and $3500 in a TM. I know most people are spending way more than $1600 in one graph. She said her kayak alone was 6500. I know it happens in all things where something starts out cheap and fun than gets expensive and serious. 

 

She's also a well known angler and has sponsors that help foot part of the bill. She deserves every penny of that as she works hard and promotes the sport. She's also a very good angler.

 

I don't see her signed up for Bassmaster at Lake Murray, but so far there are 203 entries. I bet there's close to 300 by tournament time.

1 hour ago, FryDog62 said:

Koz, I'm in your exact boat... aka kayak AP120. Similar age, same ambitions... I had been planning on my first Kayak Bassmaster tournament at Lake Murray and maybe one other.

 

That's too bad that you wont be there. We could have gone out to dinner and told lies about our fishing escapades!

 

Do you stand and fish most of the time? I imagine that if you're seated the console units get in the way.

[casts_by_fly]

2 hours ago, Koz said:

It would be a dual setup as my Helix 7 does not support live imaging. The fact is, when I bought my Helix I never dreamed that I would be considering live imaging.

 

That was a mistake. Heck, that’s been the story of my kayak fishing - not planning a fully upgradable path, from the kayak itself to the accessories and electronics.

 

Learn from my mistakes, fellow anglers, and save yourself a bunch of money.

 

 

 

Well aware the Helix 7 doesn't support live imaging.  Been there, done that.  I got a good 2 years out of my helix 7 and I had no intentions of upgrading it.  It was maybe a little small for split screening, but it is a great form factor for a kayak- not too big and not too small.  I never intended to get live imaging but I had the opportunity so I took it.

 

my thought process and advice to anyone building a kayak is to first understand what your needs and wants are.  If you're only ever going to drop it into puddle ponds for 2 hours as a time, aka just enough to get off the bank with no intention to ever upgrade, then you don't need to spend for an autopilot or pro angler.  If you want to fish big water, tournaments, or do anything odd then you need to be thinking about that ahead of time.  If you don't know what you need or want at the start, then do things in an upgradable way.

 

 

5 hours ago, Susky River Rat said:

Kristine Fischer said how almost all the anglers in the series are running FFS. She also said that her kayak rig is 19,500. Mind blowing what kayak anglers are spending on something that doesn’t have a gas motor on it. If that’s what you enjoy have at it. 

 

27 minutes ago, Susky River Rat said:

@gimruis obviously  she is fishing the big tournaments. That’s half of what my boat cost out the door. I have have about $1600 wrapped up in graphs and $3500 in a TM. I know most people are spending way more than $1600 in one graph. She said her kayak alone was 6500. I know it happens in all things where something starts out cheap and fun than gets expensive and serious. 

 

Any idea what her setup is that gets to $20k?  I imagine that has to be a pro angler with a torqueedo/bixby (or similar) on the back and an Xi3 on the front.  Then a pair of solix level graphs with 360 and live imaging.  I think that might get you close.  There will be $1500-$2k worth of lithiums supporting all of that.

[Susky River Rat]

@Koz I have the utmost respect for her and her fishing skill. I would never take that away from any angler who deserves it as she does.  My jaw just dropped when she said how much she has into her kayak.  There is people that have more than that wrapped up into theirs. I was thinking around 10k not double that. 

[Fishingmickey]

Hi Koz,

     I've been doing the Kayak tournament thing for awhile.  This will be my 10th season.  I have been running Live scope for about three years now. I shopped around pretty hard. I got my first LVS 32 unit from Tackle Warehouse using the gift card that you can buy at 10% off.  Nobody has or had any sales on Live Scope at the time.  I have upgraded the head twice and LVS transducer once (32 to 34) since. I went with the 93 SV originally, then 93 SV UHD and now I have the 943XSV.  They discontinued that unit and it was on sale from West Marine.

     I've found the GPS store to be a good source for Garmin as well.  If you want to chew the fat about it sometime, pm me your number and we can cuss and discuss.

Fishingmickey

 

[Susky River Rat]

@casts_by_fly she said her hobie is 6500 the trailer was 2500 so there is half the cost. She does have FFS. What else I have no clue. It was just in a recent podcast she did.

[Fishingmickey]

Not sure, but I think she's running either the Torqueedo 1103 or the NK180 on the back. Looking at 3k either way in motors.  She uses foot steering while standing.

FM

[Koz]

27 minutes ago, Susky River Rat said:

@Koz I have the utmost respect for her and her fishing skill. I would never take that away from any angler who deserves it as she does.  My jaw just dropped when she said how much she has into her kayak.  There is people that have more than that wrapped up into theirs. I was thinking around 10k not double that. 

Sorry man, I was not implying that you showed any disrespect. I was trying to get across how much I admire her - and that I'm probably a little jealous.

 

[FryDog62]

6 hours ago, Koz said:

Do you stand and fish most of the time? I imagine that if you're seated the console units get in the way.

I'm a combination of both sit/stand but probably sit 2/3 of the time. And that's exactly why I built the center mount for my kayak. Side mounted electronics definitely got in the way for me and I needed a new solution.  I really like the mount I have because it sits down low and out of the way, yet has great visibility.

 

Honestly, if the Sasquatch bar were available when I needed one I probably would have bought that. But as I look at it, it sits up another 3-4 inches higher than the one that I built. That would be a legit concern for me, but at the same time I haven't heard anyone that has one say that its a problem, because its so much better than a side mount. 

 

As far as pulling the motor up to clear weeds, the center mount is not in the way either... 

7 hours ago, gimruis said:

In a tournament or Elite Kayak series, I could see it.  Not for the average weekend warrior though.  You might as well get a boat if you're gonna spend that.

I mostly agree, but... while I miss my bass boat often, there are some advantages of having just a motorized kayak. I can get into some areas other traditional boaters can't and secondly I can go back and forth between freshwater and salt and not worry about ruining my boat. 

[Susky River Rat]

@Koz it’s quite alright. I know there are people who think she gets stuff handed to her. I am not one of those people. I also think it’s neat she has fished some of the areas I have.

[gim]

17 minutes ago, Susky River Rat said:

I know there are people who think she gets stuff handed to her.

 

Why would someone think that?  If she's on the Elite Kayak tour, its earned, is it not?  I assume their events have to be qualified for and every participant has to meet those standards just the same.

 

I've seen her videos on youtube but anyone on youtube is also looking for clicks, likes, and subscribers.  That's how they keep their sponsors.  That's not anything new.

[Susky River Rat]

@gimruis jealously. Excuses. The list goes on. 
 

I understand the whole YouTube thing. Sadly that’s the way you have to make a living for the most part as a pro angler. 

[immortl]

So my PA14 is likely the closest I'll come to a bass boat in my lifetime so I went all in.  I haven't added up the costs, but yeah, I'm easily hitting the $15k mark if not more.  In my case, I want to be able to haul the kayak while I have a 40' 5th wheel RV hooked up.  I have a roof rack design in mind and my brother took welding classes and I'm learning.  We have picked up all the welding gear, so this spring/summer we'll work on fabricating the roof rack for the kayak.  I have no interest in hauling around double trailers.  When the trailer isn't hooked up, I use the pickup bed.  My goal is to wander around to some of these great fishing lakes I read about and see on TV and fish them myself, staying at them for a few weeks or months at a time.  We were full time RVing before my wife passed and I would like to continue in that vein, with more of a fishing and shooting focus.

 

I have Active Target 2 on my PA14 and I am still in the early learning stages but I really like it.  Currently I run the HDS Pro 10" head unit (should have went 12") on the left rail which works well when sitting.  When standing though, I wish it was in front of me at my feet/knees.  With that in mind I foresee a future addition of another screen on a cross bar.  I'm crazy enough to be considering the 16" Lowrance screen for the increased 1920x1080 screen resolution. 

 

I did recently pick up the Dugout Dashboard Graph mount in anticipation of adding another head unit up front.  I have some cross bars and mounts on hand that I could rig up, but the Dashboard mount seems to be the easy button for the PA14 while not interfering with the front hatch nor the pedals.  All this said, my immediate discretionary funds are likely to be allocated to gopher hunting and a range finding rifle scope, so the 2nd screen may wait another year or so.  In the meantime, I'm loving my FFS set up and am working on learning it on my local ponds and lakes.  Like someone mentioned above, many times the fish I'm targeting turn out to be perch.  Really need to work on differentiating the species based on schooling behavior and whatnot.

[Fishingmickey]

34 minutes ago, gimruis said:

 

Why would someone think that?  If she's on the Elite Kayak tour, its earned, is it not?  I assume their events have to be qualified for and every participant has to meet those standards.

 Gimrus,

     No qualification needed to fish the BASS national kayak series. Just pay your entry money and dues.  To fish the Kayak Classic you have to qualify through the tournaments.

[FryDog62]

7 hours ago, Susky River Rat said:

Kristine Fischer said how almost all the anglers in the series are running FFS. She also said that her kayak rig is 19,500. Mind blowing what kayak anglers are spending on something that doesn’t have a gas motor on it. If that’s what you enjoy have at it. 

I wonder if that includes her trailer as well. OTW trailers can run another $3-5k.  I went the cheaper route but still spent $1k for a freeway-grade trailer....

[Susky River Rat]

@FryDog62 that price was including the trailer. It was roughly like $2500 she said.