New Electronics restricted Bass Tournament in the works ?

[gim]

13 minutes ago, gulfcaptain said:

Those young anglers who excel at electronics fished way before they had them.  Walked banks of parks,  fished behind other people and excelled in their passion. I've seen people have ffs that couldn't catch a fish with it if it were wide open. I will stand up for those that are young and beating the pants off the older generation  not only with electronics but by doing the hard work.

 

I don't want to sound disrespectful, but you're also way off too.  For every person you describe, there's also the angler that didn't walk banks of parks, fish behind others, or excel in their passion.  You're only seeing half the demographic because that's all you want to see.  I know anglers that sucked at fishing for most of their adult lives (except when fishing in Canada) and now they're killing it on amateur walleye tours and slaying slabs through the ice because they've literally mastered one recent item of technology.

 

I'll go ahead and stand up for anglers who put in the time, effort, and built their knowledge base without mastering a video game style piece of technology.  God forbid people should become good at something the hard way nowadays.

 

 

[TnRiver46]

Hey @gimruis, kyoya Fujita grew up fishing constantly….. from the bank

[813basstard]

24 minutes ago, gulfcaptain said:

Have you fished ffs? I do and I can tell you it has a place and a time.  I don't want to sound disrespectful but you're way off. Those young anglers who excel at electronics fished way before they had them.  Walked banks of parks,  fished behind other people and excelled in their passion. I've seen people have ffs that couldn't catch a fish with it if it were wide open. I will stand up for those that are young and beating the pants off the older generation  not only with electronics but by doing the hard work. One thing I have to say is" a winner will always congratulate a winner when he's been beat, but a looser will always complain about why he lost and blame someone else or something else for their short comings". So over most discounting the hard work of young anglers to get to that level and putting them down.  It's disrespectful. And I can understand why those that use it get heated.  

 

Glenn I apologize if I get taken wrong, just standing up for that young generation of talent that so many put down or discount them. 

I like this guy…he’s, he’s our type of guy. 
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I don’t have ffs but will get it, until then you can find me way way up in the bushes catching those fish all ffs boys have chased off. I’ll be swatting flies, retying, flipping flopping, cussing when one gets me caught up in the stuff and I can’t get him out, push poling fool

[Bankc]

Fishing with an FFS still takes a lot of skill.  It's not like it catches fish for you.  And if everyone has one, then it's not an unfair advantage.  Trying to change the rules to suit your style isn't competition.  In no industry can anyone afford to get good at something and then decide to not keep up with the times and changes in technology.  Professional fishing isn't any different.  We all have to learn and adapt over our lifetimes.  It's the way life has always been.  

That being said, I'd still like to see them get rid of some of the technology in professional fishing.  It's like professional baseball.  Sure, they'd hit more home runs if they allowed metal bats.  But sometimes making the pros do things the hard way makes it even more impressive when they accomplish those amazing feats.  Like the NBA's three-point line being further back, or the black tees on those crazy hard pro golf courses.  It makes the pros seem even more mythical that they can still do what they do with all those handicaps thrown against them.  

[gulfcaptain]

1 minute ago, gimruis said:

 

I don't want to sound disrespectful, but you're also way off too.  For every person you describe, there's also the angler that didn't walk banks of parks, fish behind others, or excel in their passion.  You're only seeing half the demographic because that's all you want to see.  I know anglers that sucked at fishing for most of their adult lives (except when fishing in Canada) and now they're killing it on amateur walleye tours and slaying slabs through the ice because they've literally mastered one recent item of technology.

 

I'll go ahead and stand up for anglers who put in the time, effort, and built their knowledge base without mastering a video game style piece of technology.  God forbid people should become good at something the hard way nowadays.

 

 

You pointed out specific uses. And those are guys NOT fishing for bass and in tournaments throughout the country.  See what you miss is they are doing work to find those fish and then catch them. How did they find them? Did they just put the trolling motor down and the fish are on the screen? No. They did their homework, they located multiple places and patterns. I'm sticking up for the young generation of bass fisherman. Those that in the bass community want *next to their name because they happened to use ffs as part of their strategy to catch fish(which is what you are trying to do). It excels in the cooler months and in deep  water applications,  but not beating the bank, fishing heavy grass, cover, etc.  To say someone who makes it to the "elite" level of bass fishing can't fish without ffs us what's disrespectful. Especially when those kids are in their early 20s. It shows how much drive and passion those kiss have. They absorb every bit of information they can.  They didn't get that good just because of ffs. They already were "that good" but then taking the time to learn ffs made them that much better. Hate on the guys that figured out how to ice fish with it? Why....hate on the guys that understand how to put it to use walleye fishing? Why? They probably have success at times but not everytime. I can tell you I use mine a lot in the early spring, but once they are up on the bank and shallow it's a tool I use to locate edges in the grass or a piece of cover I don't wanna run over the top of.   The jealousy has to stop, the putting down of someone who is successful in fishing because of what he's doing or using. I never complained when most I fished with had spotlock trolling motors and could fish a worm slower and more effectively then me because I had to keep myself in place.  Should we have banned those trolling motors because it let someone sit on a point in the wind that wouldn't be able to catch a fish if they had to fight their trolling motor and the wind?  Ban chartplotters because now you can see all the breaks on lakes and find ledges where you used to have to go out and find them. Should we discount those guys that use both of those from the ones that didn't?  Only difference  now is everyone can voice their opinions good or bad on social media. So if you don't like ffs and against all of the tech, take off the graphs, take off the shallow water anchors,  take off the spotlock trolling motor,  get yourself a 12v 45lb cable pedal, a flasher and go fishing.  I will respect your outrage on modern technology.  And also get rid of those DC reels all that auto breaking that let's you cast without backlashing because it discounts those that learned how before all that.  See all that sounds stupid doesn't it. Kinda like the argument about ffs.

[gim]

29 minutes ago, gulfcaptain said:

So if you don't like ffs and against all of the tech, take off the graphs, take off the shallow water anchors,  take off the spotlock trolling motor,  get yourself a 12v 45lb cable pedal, a flasher and go fishing.  I will respect your outrage on modern technology.  And also get rid of those DC reels all that auto breaking that let's you cast without backlashing because it discounts those that learned how before all that.  See all that sounds stupid doesn't it. Kinda like the argument about ffs.

Ironic you should mention these items because most of them are how I still fish.  I don't have a DC reel or spot lock (GASP).  My bow mount is still a cable drive.  Hard to imagine I'm still using 5 year old technology, but I am.  I could go out and put together a $15,000 electronics setup tomorrow if I wanted to.  I have zero interest in fishing that way.  I stare at a screen enough as it is.

 

I'm actually not against using live sonar.  But I think there needs to be limitations.  @Bankc response earlier was a good post that I agreed with.  Outboards have HP limitations, boats have length limitations, bodies of water have boundary limitations.  That's all I'm saying here.

[gulfcaptain]

18 minutes ago, gimruis said:

 

I'm actually not against using live sonar.  But I think there needs to be limitations.  @Bankc response earlier was a good post that I agreed with.  Outboards have HP limitations, boats have length limitations, bodies of water have boundary limitations.  That's all I'm saying here.

But if you look most have 1 or 2 units. HP is for safety reasons, and limitations due to waters or other safety factors.  There is a huge limiting factor on ffs, the fish. I can have them all around the boat, but I still have to catch them. If I choose to fish that way and they don't bite,  it's kinda like guys bed fishing and risking it in hopes that a fish will still be there and if so will bite.  Only thing it has helped is those guys be more efficient at that level then they already were. Those who are complaining about it won't ever reach that level not because of ffs, but because they can't.  It's incredibly hard to be that consistent all the time and those that do don't do it because of ONE piece of technology.  

[WRB]

I bumped up this topic in the Marine Electronics forum posted 10/14/2021 or over 3 years ago before this topic became hot discussion, worth reading imo.

My statement was this technology is a game changer didn’t take much fore sight to make.

Knowing exactly where the bass are located at what depth plus “seeing” their reaction to your lure is something we never had before outside of bed fishing. Bed bass are not feeding or suspended, they are guarding the nest. 

Tournament anglers are mostly skilled bass anglers that know  the lakes they fish well. Knowing exactly where the bass are located and their activity level make catching the bass a lot easier and that is exactly what FFS sonar Live Scope does.

For tournament angler pre fishing you can use your time locating bass without catching them, big advantage over anglers guessing where the bass are located.

FFS doesn’t guarantee catching bass but it saves time and time is a critical factor for tournament anglers.

My opinion is this if you tournament fish buy and learn this technology to be competitive. It’s your choice not a rules committee.

Tom

 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

Not sure how much bank beating an 18 yr old Trey Mckinney had before qualifying for the Elite series last year.    He would have been 13-14yrs old when FFS came out.   

 

I still remember when it took dudes decades of learning techniques and time on water to make the top of the pro world.      Now the experienced guys are giving way to rather inexperienced guys who are wizz kids on the scope.   The scope trumps all other techniques, the decades of mastering techniques is rendered quite useless in the face of a talented scoper.    This isn't my words alone, this is the opinion of long time Elite series pros who say it.     Listen to guys like Matt Herron and Greg Hackney.  

[gulfcaptain]

26 minutes ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

Not sure how much bank beating an 18 yr old Trey Mckinney had before qualifying for the Elite series last year.    He would have been 13-14yrs old when FFS came out.   

    

Does it matter? He qualified.   Remember when a young kid named Jacob Wheeler won the Forest Wood Cup....stop judging these young anglers by their age and respect the accomplishment they made. There are dinosaurs in the Elite series that would NEVER be able to requalify through the opens. They are there they might make a top 40 cut but aren't as good as a lot of young anglers.  Those kids still have to go out and fish as hard as a Hackney or a Christie who both went back and requalified through the open format. Congratulate these young ambassadors to our sport and stop hating on them. They still have to catch them and if they can be a tech wiz, learn ALL the information they need to find and put it together over a 3 day tournament against some of the best, they shouldn't be discounted against because of their age. Guess what they are better then then some of us, fish harder then most of us, and are driven more then most of us.  That kid at 18 worked his butt off through the opens, respect that and don't discount it.  

[Woody B]

7 hours ago, Bankc said:

something other than attracting sponsors to fund these floating laboratories.   

 

 

The electronics are a drop in the bucket money wise compared to the rest of a modern Bass boat.   A 250 horse engine is ~$25,000.   It would be pretty much impossible to fit $25K worth of Live Scope/FFS/Mega 360 on a boat.   

[rgasr63]

@gulfcaptain if I came off as disrespectful to the next generation then I haven't communicated properly. I apologize for that. My issue is it can make a rookie look like a seasoned professional. And I feel like it levels the playing field between a rookie and a pro. That is all I am trying to say. 

[mcipinkie]

Here's my $0.02. 

 

I'm not going to get into the FFS debate.  I have one.  I've fished almost 70 years without it.  I can go either way, but I like mine and enjoy fishing with it.

 

This circuit, as I understand it, is doomed to fail, if it hasn't already.  If Randy ain't coming, it's dead.  Half joking, but to succeed this circuit will need some cred.  Randy would bring some.  A few others with Randy's credentials also.

 

$5,000 to enter, 200 boat field, no sponsors, no practice, no 360, no FFS, no GPS.  Not happening.  Most people that can afford the $5K have sponsors of some sort.  That's why they can afford the $5K.  They already have the electronics and have some skill at using them.  Most won't go back 5 - 10 years and fish without.  I could, but wouldn't like it except on lakes that I've fished for a long time.

 

I'd also be concerned about dropping $5K in a circuit with no credentials.  A lot of guys on the west coast did.

 

I would like see a circuit, at least in my area that doesn't allow.  Assuming all else OK, I might fish it.  I wouldn't pay $5k to enter.  A circuit that is similar in cost to some our existing local circuits might draw enough boats to be economically viable.  Then there would be choice, and we could see who will put their money,and their butts, where their mouths are.

 

 

[TnRiver46]

Rumor has it Trey McKinney fishes longer hours than anybody, apparently he is quite driven 

[mcipinkie]

PS: 

 

Whenever I hear the words "Non - Profit", I lock up my credit cards and wallet.  Should this circuit ever happen, which I doubt, someone will put some money in their pocket other than the competitors.

 

You'd be surprised how much you have to pay a tournament director at a 200 boat, $1M derby.

[gulfcaptain]

2 hours ago, rgasr63 said:

@gulfcaptain if I came off as disrespectful to the next generation then I haven't communicated properly. I apologize for that. My issue is it can make a rookie look like a seasoned professional. And I feel like it levels the playing field between a rookie and a pro. That is all I am trying to say. 

They are ALL pros. And understandable, l didn't want to come across wrong as well. Just saying those kids need  our support.  They made it on their own decision making which put them at the top of the field. And with that theory above, wouldn't the veteran who knows so much more be just as good with ffs? I mean he has all that information,  experience,  wisdom. Why isn't he catching them with his ffs which he has on his boat? Level field no, some kids are hammers. They strive to be the best and put long hrs in on the water to be that proficient.  It's not ffs, it's the guy fishing.  It's always the guy fishing who makes the right choices. Everything else is a tool.  

[AlabamaSpothunter]

3 minutes ago, gulfcaptain said:

And with that theory above, wouldn't the veteran who knows so much more be just as good with ffs? I mean he has all that information,  experience,  wisdom. Why isn't he catching them with his ffs which he has on his boat? 

Nobody is debating that FFS isn't a learned/perfected technique similar to any other technique of yesteryear like flipping with Denny or cranking with Fritts. 

 

The old guys simply got caught off guard, many of them have or are doing better jobs at adapting it in their games.     They're still way behind the curve, and young minds will always be faster learners of new tech, a tale as old as tech itself.   

 

Arguably the single best FFS user on the planet was installing cable/fishing from a 14ft jon boat when he installed a job for a guy who worked with Garmin, and he got a prototype Garmin LVS32 unit.   The rest is history.   He essentially had one of the first units, and put in way more work before anybody even really knew about the tech.    I have little doubt if Josh Jones wanted to compete at the highest level of Bass fishing he would do so quite successfully because he has the single most important tool or technique mastered that's relevant for the game today.   He dominated Crappie derbies with it for a couple years.   

 

I mean there's really no reason to debate or argue this topic, it's fundamentally changed the game on the professional level.   Hate it, love it can be debated, but the fact that it can erase the need for decades of on the water experience is clearly evidenced already in its infancy of usage.     

 

For the record, Trey Mckinney would fish circles around me, and I wasn't diminishing his incredible feat at such a young age.    

[TnRiver46]

Is this the pyramid scheme of tournament trails ? 

[volzfan59]

20 hours ago, gimruis said:

Ironic you should mention these items because most of them are how I still fish.  I don't have a DC reel or spot lock (GASP).  My bow mount is still a cable drive.  Hard to imagine I'm still using 5 year old technology, but I am.  I could go out and put together a $15,000 electronics setup tomorrow if I wanted to.  I have zero interest in fishing that way.  I stare at a screen enough as it is.

 

I'm actually not against using live sonar.  But I think there needs to be limitations.  @Bankc response earlier was a good post that I agreed with.  Outboards have HP limitations, boats have length limitations, bodies of water have boundary limitations.  That's all I'm saying here.

I'm with @gimruis 100%. Don't have FFS, as of now I don't need it to catch bass. Can I afford it, sure can but I won't buy it. Like I've said before, if it gets to the point that I have to buy FFS to catch bass, I'll have one heck of a bass fishing yard sale. As always, to each his own.

 

 

[TnRiver46]

Randy says you can’t catch any fish without it @volzfan59 😂 

 

wonder if he realizes how many livescopes he has sold inadvertently 

[TOXIC]

Buddy has it on his boat.  Fished with it yesterday.  Bottom and water column was alive with fish.  I saw them.  They would follow baits, they would ignore baits, they would shy away from baits.  The one thing they wouldn’t do…..bite baits.  We threw everything we had.  Caught very few and some of the ones we caught we were just beating the bank.  I don’t know what that proves, maybe that it’s not magic but we have used it to hone in on schools out in open water and we’re able to watch them bite. 

[TnRiver46]

Thats the way the 2023 bassmaster classic went here, the winner said he saw 100 SMB inspect his lure but only got 2 keepers on final day 

[greentrout]

"Forward-shooting sonar makes the common winter pattern a blast to fish; you can visually track your lure and actually watch the fish react to it". 

 

Source: BASSMASTER magazine page 59 January/February 2024. Bass fisherman Justin Hamner from the article Day on the Lake Justin Hamner Winter

[gim]

9 hours ago, volzfan59 said:

if it gets to the point that I have to buy FFS to catch bass, I'll have one heck of a bass fishing yard sale.

You let us all know when that yard sale occurs so we can make a nice haul off your stuff. 

[rgasr63]

What will happen with co- anglers? Now there is a need for 2 ffs on a boat sometimes?