Rod components 101

[snowplow]

Hey guys and gals. It's easy to picture how a better blank is more sensitive, light and stronger. Please help me understand how cheap to premium reel seats effect things? Is it just finding a shape you like or is there more?

 

Same thing with guides. They get pretty spendy. I get they are stronger and lighter, but how much are we talking? Is this something normal people can even notice?

 

Thank you!

[MickD]

For seats it's just a matter of personal preference, although I would stick with the major brands, not some mystery thing from Ebay.  I like metal hoods-sooner or later plastic seems to break.  

 

As for guides we seem to be in a trend that we have to have the most expensive guides/hottest whatever on the market.  I have NEVER had a guide groove.  Tip tops , yes.  I use SIC tiptops to prevent this, but any of the current guides will work just fine with any line, including braid.

 

Can normal people notice?  On very light tipped finesse rods the difference between stainless steel and titanium can make a "feelable" difference, but if you keep the size down (like size 4.5 Fuji KB's and KT's for runners), the difference is so small that I doubt anyone will notice the difference.

 

But if you go big on that type of rod the weight of the guides will affect the recovery speed and sensitivity to the point you will feel it. 

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

Use the smallest, lightest guides that will pass connections and stand up to the use.  This preserves the blanks inherent qualities. Quality guides are more corrosion resistant. Titanium is  best choice for salt water if budget allows.  Fuji Alconite are my go to. High quality reasonable price. 

[snowplow]

Thank you!

[spoonplugger1]

Who said they were stronger? Every reel seat is held on by something, if that bond fails does the rest matter? I have been fishing for 65+ years and I have never seen any reel seat from any source or material fail due to a normal fishing load, how much force do you think the seats are under? Whatever you imagine it's probably way less, the same for the strain you think your guide train is really under. What we feel is because we are fishing holding the short end of a lever, the fish, line, and components are feeling the actual load, we are feeling the load times the length in a straight line from the tip top position to your hand at the lever fulcrum.  There were tests done on bass rods and their components, where the rod were put under strain until the rod failed, at no time did the strain on any one guide exceed 5 lbs. the little short single foot guides you have near your rod tip can hold over 20 lbs. without deflecting, let alone being damaged or failing, that said just how much force do you think it would take to destroy the reel seat? We don't know, even blanks that that fail at 61.8 lbs. of load always fail because a tip top was destroyed some way or even pulled off, or the blank blew up. Sounds to me the components aren't prone to failure. If something is twice as strong when the other is more than good enough, is the money well spent, did we actually have a problem in the first place?

[Chris Catignani]

On 12/18/2023 at 3:56 PM, MickD said:

...  I like metal hoods-sooner or later plastic seems to break.  ...

 

@spoonplugger1 I think @MickD is talking about the hoods.
They can and will break when you overtighten them.
I actually fixed one once by cutting a piece of a Coke can and glueing it back under the hood.

[MickD]

Yes, I was talking about hoods.  The newer plastic hoods have a very thick section, so maybe they will hold up fine, but the older ones were proportioned like metal hoods, and often would break.  Most plastics don't last forever, contrary to what some people think.  

[spoonplugger1]

My forever is 40+ years and counting, not a bad run in my book. Got my money's worth and then some. If I had to replace tomorrow, so what, I'm a rod builder.

[Munkin]

Lighter and more sensitive blanks are more fragile. Everything is a trade off so in general I like Fuji Alconite guides and a SIC tip. In 18+ years I have never had an Alconite guide fail. The reason for the titanium SIC tips is Co-Anglers have stepped on too many tips.

 

Allen

[corey90]

just becouse a component is a bit heavier doesnt mean it will couse the blank to be any less or more sensitive, Its about the quality of the material and how its made. For guides i like the fuji titaniumframe guides but will not put anything less than the cc gunmetal stainless steel frame sic guide and what everone says get the smallest guides you can get away with.

 

[Alex from GA]

I personally am a light weight fanatic and use Mudhole SSR or PacBay Minima guides with #5 running guides.  Freshwater and inshore and haven't had a problem except for tip tops.  

[snowplow]

Awesome guys. 

 

So I'm looking for some big picture thinking here. Obviously the guides are a source of friction to the line. But they are also the source of the line interacting with the rod along with the real seat I suppose. 

 

Are more guides better? With more guides there would be more friction. Although I don't know if that would amount to a hill of beans, but also with more guides. Are you getting more input into the blank? Just curious.

[Chris Catignani]

I dont think more guides are better...but I think the length and action of the rod will determine how many guides you need.
Typically you would want the line to follow the blank when its in a bent position and not create too large an angle from guide to guide.

For example...in say a seven foot rod:
For a medium action rod you may have the first 5 guides from the tip: 10,11,12,13,14 covering 60 cm.

For an extra fast tip you may have the same 5 guides from the tip: 8,9,10,11,12 covering 50 cm.

Eventually having 1 more guide for the extra fast rod...so it just depends....and not everyone looks at it the same.

As for casting distance (friction) and sensitivity...some others may have a lot to say about that...I just take it as it is.
 

[MickD]

I almost invariably use more guides than the traditional rules of thumb, and usually one more than Fuji's software recommends (spin.)  I almost always am casting farther than my boatmates, so I don't think it significantly costs distance.  I do it to get a better looking stress test on spin and to keep the line from crossing the blank under stress with guide-on-top baitcasters with micros.  

 

The friction of the guide/line interface has to be very low except possibly for the first guide on spin.  Out on the rod there is nothing loading the line against the guides on the cast.  

[KCFinesse]

I'm a big fan of light guides for sensitivity (I like the #5 and #4 minimas). But the benefits of lightweight components is about placement too.

 

I don't see benefits in a lot of the light weight or skeleton type seats... On casting set ups I think ecsm seats with a good fit are hard to beat (there are a lot of otherwise uncomfortable options available!) Minimizing the use of arbors (maximizing solid contact between seat and the blank) and minimizing the amount of material in front of the reel seat are my preferences; I usually go without a foregrip and place hook keepers in between split grips. I think a lot of this is personal preference, but a solid component assembly always helps.

 

-Jared

[Munkin]

Look into the Fuji KR guide concept. When I first saw it I thought it was weird looking but it works. 

 

Allen

[snowplow]

Wow such great info. You guys just make me keep thinking of new things to ask. 

 

Are the MHX blanks that are available at mud hole northwest composite x ray blanks? Are they privately labeled for mudhole or is it a coincidence (M-mud, H-hole, X-xray)?

[MikeK]

Not the same.  MHX blanks are designed by Mud Hole and manufactured overseas.

[spoonplugger1]

Once upon a time there was a rod designer named Todd Vivian who had a very successful career at Lamiglas, he loaded up everything and moved to Florida to work at Mudhole. There was a very successful rod building company called Custom Tackle, one day he sold his business and moved to Florida and started working for Mudhole who by the way also had bought his company. All this happened at pretty much the same time, and it just happened that the MHX line came out after the fact. Coincidence?

[spoonplugger1]

Material wise, the carbon in the High end MHX blanks is similar to the carbon in the Rainshadow Immortal series, a well known and respected carbon that has been in use for decades. The high end carbons used at NFC are many generations superior.

[1984isNOW]

@spoonplugger1 I'm starting to wonder, seeing all these scattered puzzle pieces across multiple platforms, are you sponsored by NFC 😉

 

Always appreciate the history lessons brother

 

@KCFinesse I like the way you think bro, I'm in that build to maximize performance camp too. You'll never see a ln unnecessary wrap in front of my reel seat.

 

What are you doing instead of a foregrip? I'm pretty much just putting a layer of epoxy over the exposed arbor if there is one.

[KCFinesse]

On 1/20/2024 at 11:32 AM, Kites R4 Skyfishing said:

What are you doing instead of a foregrip? I'm pretty much just putting a layer of epoxy over the exposed arbor if there is one.

I usually just use a winding check- my favorites are the Forecast 'No Fore Grip' checks in either rubber or aluminum.

 

-Jared

[spoonplugger1]

Kites R-4, The only shop that sponsored me was back in 1981, they sold motorcycles and it wasn't much of a sponsorship. I liked Shikari SHX blanks back in the day, still have a few around, the Lamiglas XMG50 blanks when they were available, have some St. Croix SCV rods I'm fond of, but right now I don't see anyone out there that isn't setting on their laurels and doing much other than NFC. A US company, and at least they are trying to do business in a world market.

[1984isNOW]

On 1/25/2024 at 5:39 PM, spoonplugger1 said:

 Shikari

I think it was Rick Clunn that I recently heard talking about Shikari blanks from back in the day.

 

Who used to operate Shikari?

 

Morton was Allstar right?

 

How would you compare the actions of the Croix/Rodgeeks to NFC?

 

What about the different levels of NFC (SM,IM...) to Croix (SCIII, SCIV...)?

 

 

[MickD]

Asking to compare actions between different blank makers, especially ones with a lot of blanks, is not realistic.  Any blank maker can get any action and any power in any material.

 

The question about different grades of materials is more clear cut.  I've developed a method of checking the natural frequency of rods and blanks with an Android device, very easy, and it almost invariably shows that the higher the grade of material, the higher the True Natural Frequency will be and the faster the recovery from deflection.  Not all agree, but I believe that this is an indication of sensitivity , too.  If two blanks of the same length, power, and action have different True Natural Frequencies then I belive the higher TNF blank will have faster recovery from deflection and likely higher sensitivity (ability to feel a bite).  Theoretically, faster recovery should mean longer casts.

 

One can see the drop in TNF as he adds guides, so lighter the better on guides, especially out away from the butt.  I use Fuji KB's and KT's for running guides, often in titanium, most often in size 4.