Bates Hundo

[redmeansdistortion]

10 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

Perhaps you're old enough to remember when buying anything from the conquered Imperial Japanese was a sin? Cars made from recycled beer cans? Now they're held in the same regard as Sweden or Germany. BTW, I "liked" your post.

Oh yeah I am lol.  My grandparents are probably turning in their graves because I drive a Subaru and have a bunch of JDM gear.  I live in the home of the Big 3.  The factories even make employees park their foreign cars in lots at the far reaches of the facilities.  Those that are driving anything German, Japanese, Korean, or Italian have a long walk to the door.  If you park a foreign vehicle in the other lots, it stands a good chance of being vandalized. 

[PhishLI]

5 minutes ago, Hella Bread said:

it while pushing the image and branding it was designed and produced somewhere else.  It’s an honesty thing at the end of the day.

My point is that you have no idea whether Daiwa or Shimano use specific parts for their reels sourced from China. I'd bet anything that they do, and this isn't disclosed either. I know this is the norm because I've consulted for brands operating in the ultra high end markets. Strangely, these choices aren't always price driven. Some things aren't produced domestically because the talent no longer exists in the home country to do so, and that includes Germany. If not for NDAs, the stories I could tell.

[Hella Bread]

22 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

There are a few companies bench-building reels in the US

https://irtreels.com/

https://www.seigler.fish/collections/conventional-fishing-reels

 

My opinion, Bates has made a suave marketing effort to ride their coattails.  

Idk what it is about the saltwater conventional side of the market but yeah you’re more likely to see companies producing and assembling their own designs.  Accurate also comes to mind.  But little chance of that happening with the low pro market which i think is due to the amount of molded parts used in the average low pro today.  Molds and tooling become dummy expensive quick which is something I have first hand experience with.  

[bulldog1935]

@redmeansdistortion Japan bicycles and components were anathema in the 70s (world leader in the 80s - by the end of the decade had to move the industry to Taiwan because of home labor cost and falling USD).  

But anyone with a brain in the 70s swapped their Campy rear derailler for SunTour Cyclone.  Campagnolo was the last hold-out to copy SunTour's expired derailleur patent, waiting until '88 - par for the course, Shimano copied it in '80, 2y before the patent expired.  On the right is Campy's SunTour copy, which is all anyone makes currently.  

 

back on topic to answer a specific question, map of Daiwa suppliers, which includes China.  

[Hella Bread]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:08 AM, PhishLI said:

My point is that you have no idea whether Daiwa or Shimano use specific parts for their reels sourced from China. I'd bet anything that they do, and this isn't disclosed either. I know this is the norm because I've consulted for brands operating in the ultra high end markets. Strangely, these choices aren't always price driven. Some things aren't produced domestically because the talent no longer exists in the home country to do so, and that includes Germany. If not for NDAs, the stories I could tell.

actually japan specifically has pretty strict country of origin labeling laws that japanese companies have to follow and all major parts (bearings, gears, roller clutches etc (basically everything outside of screws, o rings and washers) have been clearly labeled where it was made and by what company if it was a sourced part like bearings.

it’s actually so strict the bag the part is packed in is labeled “printed in X” separate from the label on the part itself stating where it was made for my shimano parts 

[Hella Bread]

9 minutes ago, Hella Bread said:

actually japan specifically has pretty strict country of origin labeling laws that japanese companies have to follow and all major parts (bearings, gears, roller clutches etc (basically everything outside of screws, o rings and washers) have been clearly labeled where it was made and by what company if it was a sourced part like bearings.

it’s actually so strict the bag the part is packed in is labeled “printed in X” separate from the label on the part itself stating where it was made for my shimano parts 

+ This point is moot bc daiwa/shimano own their overseas plants which means total control from the top down in terms of production and the engineering side vs with an oem contracted reel a lot of the non sexy internal bits no one likes to talk about bc it’s boring ultimately can make or break a reel and you’re at the mercy of that oems quality and engineering since you’re gonna be sharing parts with the rest of the models in said oems catalog

[bulldog1935]

(Daiwa does not own all their offshore manufacturing - e.g., Tica, Doyo - and many China and Korea rod companies - e.g., Valleyhill, Whiplash Factory, NS Black Hole - aiming at Japan for their prime market, try harder, offering higher quality for the price point).  

 

Reigning this in for perspective.  

What you're getting in a Bates reel is their spool and dual brake, with a low-profile reel built around it.  Very likely more attention to the assembly and better Q/C than typical Express site reels.  The thing to watch is replacement on the sold-out reel batches, and the thing to question is future support.  

 

The mark on the right - the lightning bolt - does require 100% Japan production

[Hella Bread]

29 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

back on topic to answer a specific question, map of Daiwa suppliers, which includes China

goes back to the point of “I/most people could care less where it was made if the product is good just don’t lie about it” which I think is a reasonable stance

4 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

(Daiwa does not own all their offshore manufacturing - e.g., Tica, Doyo - and many China and Korea rod companies - e.g., Valleyhill, Whiplash Factory, NS Black Hole - aiming at Japan for their prime market try harder, offering higher quality for the price point).  

Reigning this in for perspective.  

What you're getting in a Bates reel is their spool and dual brake, with a low-profile reel built around it.  Very likely more attention to the assembly and better Q/C than typical Express site reels.  

I shoulda been more specific I was referring to the reel manufacturing plants, (thailand and japan) not including obvious sourced parts like bearings, screws washers etc they have a much greater amount of control over compared to a start up company designing a reel with an oem.  When you get into the greater scope of the globeride supply chain and which components they own/have stake in it gets muddy real fast bc of how many diff industries they’re involved in.  Like daiwa having a high ene streetwear clothing line for some reason.

[Hella Bread]

24 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

The mark on the right - the lightning bolt - does require 100% Japan production

unrelated note how are legit design rods they been piquing my interest along with raid japan

[redmeansdistortion]

50 minutes ago, Hella Bread said:

Like daiwa having a high ene streetwear clothing line 

They also make some really nice golf clubs.

[bulldog1935]

The Legit Design Wild Side is among the best travel casting multipiece rods offered.  

 

It comes in a Meiho box (rod inside a sock, inside a neoprene zipper case) and fits in a bike half-frame bag, e.g. opportunity fishing in Laguna Atascosa

 

[softwateronly]

1 hour ago, PhishLI said:

My point is that you have no idea whether Daiwa or Shimano use specific parts for their reels sourced from China. I'd bet anything that they do, and this isn't disclosed either. I know this is the norm because I've consulted for brands operating in the ultra high end markets. Strangely, these choices aren't always price driven. Some things aren't produced domestically because the talent no longer exists in the home country to do so, and that includes Germany. If not for NDAs, the stories I could tell.

 

Completely non fishing related, but I imagine the changes afoot in the next 10 years with the pulling apart of the global manufacturing base due to political reasons is going to fill up your story cache even more.  Fun times.

 

scott

[KP Duty]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:43 AM, bulldog1935 said:

The Legit Design Wild Side is among the best travel casting multipiece rods offered.  

 

It all fits in a Meiho box and in a bike half-frame bag, e.g. opportunity fishing in Laguna Atascosa

 

Bulldog you sexy B.  Socks match the bike 'for the boardwalk ladies'.

[bulldog1935]

@KP Duty

The 15-l front bag stashes a 15-l Ice Mule and a 6-pack.  

You'd think we've done this before.  

Building bikes is the only thing more fun than tinkering reels and rigging kayaks.  

[dodgeguy]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:17 AM, bulldog1935 said:

@redmeansdistortion Japan bicycles and components were anathema in the 70s (world leader in the 80s - by the end of the decade had to move the industry to Taiwan because of home labor cost).  

But anyone with a brain in the 70s swapped their Campy rear derailler for SunTour Cyclone (Campagnolo was the last hold-out to copy SunTour's expired derailleur patent, waiting until '88 - par for the course, Shimano copied it in '80, 2y before the patent expired)

 

back on topic to answer a specific question, map of Daiwa suppliers, which includes China.  

Sorry dude but super record was miles above suntour. You just had to know how to shift.im not saying suntour was bad but it wouldn't last near what campy did. Suntour was awesome at it's price point but I still would have picked dura ace over suntour.

[Eric 26]

12 minutes ago, dodgeguy said:

😆🤣 I’m laughing as I know absolutely nothing about bicycles except what I’ve learned from @bulldog1935 and I will say his bicycle collection is as impressive as his rod and reel collection 😉

Edited December 24, 2023 by Eric 26
Added content

[garroyo130]

Back to the Bates. I don't even have high end reels but I think I'm at a point where the only improvement I still seek is casting related (control, distance). I'm perfectly content with the drag and smoothness I have now, even at the $200 price range. This Bates seems to have a generic brake system. 

 

And for that reason ... I'm out, sharks. 

 

[TXBass]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:40 PM, Hella Bread said:

Hello Bates owner here. 

I thought i would clear some things up since several here have zero clue what they are talking about. Not 1 single time have we ever claimed to make the reels in the USA. Infact, we spell it very clear on our website we do not. 2nd we 100% engineer our reels form ground up right her in TX USA this is our design our IP. 

 

Ill explain manufacturing for any who care to know how it works. Ford does not make the leather the tires nor the electronics in their vehicle in fact do not not physically make a single piece. The engineer and spec the vehicle and every part then outsource the individual companies to make parts for them and they do the assembly.

 

We have outsourced the awesome team at Loongze to design a brake system for our reel the Hundo, and they are 100% the best in the business at it. Loongze uses bates frames on their reels the spell that our on their website also. We own the patents and decide who we want to sell our frames to. We hold a joint patent on the Matrix braking system 

 

We are a easy phone call away to answer questions but please dont make things up about something you know nothing about, 

 

[TXBass]

On 10/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, uno said:

They are made in Korea. Buy one and let us know, I'm pretty curious how one piece aluminum frame = 5 ounces. 

100% not made in Korea. 100% designed in the USA and sourced globally assembled in PRC. 

[garroyo130]

1 minute ago, TXBass said:

assembled in PRC. 

 

Made in China

[TXBass]

Assembled in China.

[garroyo130]

k

[TXBass]

Its ok Garroyo it can be a little confusing and many manufactures never explain, Big difference in made and assembled, If i brought all my Indvidual pieces of a reel from around the globe and assembled them in the USA legally in the USA i cannot say the product is made in the USA only assembled. Same thing goes for PRC we bring all products in globally its not made there its assembled there. 

[garroyo130]

what is your relation to the company?

[TXBass]

Gil i am the owner operator. Not here to promote my brand just clearing up the mis information on this forum