Old Town Autopilot dual motor setup?

[Zcoker]

On 6/4/2024 at 9:49 PM, Koz said:

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I’ve been looking at various ways to get more top speed in my AP120. There’s no way I would put two motors on it, plus that is illegal with many your.

 

One thing of note - when I fished the Bassmaster series at Guntersville there were a lot of anglers with lighter plastic kayaks that were getting 8 - 9 mph with their setups.

 

Meanwhile, I had swapped out my standard prop for a Weedless Wedge prop and I was getting only 3.1 mph.

 

I've heard of guys going the air plane prop route for better top end speed. That weedless wedge prop cuts the speed. The factory power prop is about as good as it gets for the best of both worlds. I have the same motor on my OT. As a side note: the power connector on mine gave out, a common problem with the AP. Before it gave out, the speed and torque got lower and lower. So other issues might be lurking. 

[Jeffrey Walker]

Yes it's true, i read that as well the airplane prop def increases speed. However, it also appears to be terrible in weeds, so i've decided against it.  

[casts_by_fly]

all of these things are true.  the RC prop will give you ~0.3-0.4 over the power prop.  The weedless wedge will drop you the same amount.  The RC prop only needs 1 tiny weed strand to incapacitate it.  Its only okay in rocky lakes with no grass.  Also have to be careful clipping it against rocks as it chips and breaks a lot easier than the minn kota props.  The weedless wedge is dynamite in weeds.  With it and the ninja blade I don't worry about getting junked in.  Curly pondweed is tricky because it wraps the nosecone so much but anything else is fine.  From may until September I pretty much only use the wedge prop.  The standard prop is a good compromise and works great for the most part.  Some lakes and some times of year I'll throw it on before I leave the house because the weeds aren't high  or I'm not fishing around them.  In that case I'll take the extra speed, but not go to the RC prop because there's still a chance to see some weeds here or there.  I carry all three on the boat every trip so that I always have a spare prop on hand.  I also will swap the prop on the water if I've made a bad choice.

[FryDog62]

On 6/4/2024 at 9:49 PM, Koz said:

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I’ve been looking at various ways to get more top speed in my AP120. There’s no way I would put two motors on it, plus that is illegal with many your.

 

One thing of note - when I fished the Bassmaster series at Guntersville there were a lot of anglers with lighter plastic kayaks that were getting 8 - 9 mph with their setups.

 

Meanwhile, I had swapped out my standard prop for a Weedless Wedge prop and I was getting only 3.1 mph.

I asked a similar speed question on the FB Autopilot group page recently, and if/when an AP 2.0 is released - would it have a bigger motor (pounds thrust)? The responses were basically no, that even a 60 or 80 lb thrust motor would only increase speed by .1-.2 mph.

Apparently some have tried it with an 80 lb somehow configured to fit the kayak. They say the hull design is for stability and will never be significantly faster even if you go up in power. 
 

For the recreational angler I think 3.5-4.0 and spot-lock is plenty. But I hear you, when it comes to tournaments - getting to the prime spots first can make all the difference. I think it could become tough for Old Town to compete against other brands that go twice as fast.  
 

Maybe someday a different (second) tournament hull altogether with a larger power source/motor?  Would be nice to look into the future, it won’t be the same 5 years from now IMO. 

[Koz]

1 hour ago, FryDog62 said:

I asked a similar speed question on the FB Autopilot group page recently, and if/when an AP 2.0 is released - would it have a bigger motor (pounds thrust)? The responses were basically no, that even a 60 or 80 lb thrust motor would only increase speed by .1-.2 mph.

Apparently some have tried it with an 80 lb somehow configured to fit the kayak. They say the hull design is for stability and will never be significantly faster even if you go up in power. 
 

For the recreational angler I think 3.5-4.0 and spot-lock is plenty. But I hear you, when it comes to tournaments - getting to the prime spots first can make all the difference. I think it could become tough for Old Town to compete against other brands that go twice as fast.  
 

Maybe someday a different (second) tournament hull altogether with a larger power source/motor?  Would be nice to look into the future, it won’t be the same 5 years from now IMO. 

 

Speed will have to come from the hull design and/or decreasing weight. The Bassmaster Kayak Series limits motors to 3HP and 155 foot pounds of thrust. I’m sure the Hobie series has similar regulations.

[FryDog62]

2 hours ago, Koz said:

 

Speed will have to come from the hull design and/or decreasing weight. The Bassmaster Kayak Series limits motors to 3HP and 155 foot pounds of thrust. I’m sure the Hobie series has similar regulations.

Part of me would like to see OT come out with a 155 lb thrust kayak motor for the Autopilot!  Of course I'd probably need a 300 AH lithium battery too ~ 

[MN Fisher]

2 minutes ago, FryDog62 said:

Part of me would like to see OT come out with a 155 lb thrust kayak motor for the Autopilot!

Chris is like

[Jeffrey Walker]

I don't think i buy this whole hull design stuff. If you threw a 5hp on there and if the plastic could support it,  that thing is going a lot faster.  I don't care what the hull design is.  The issue is the plastic boat - not the hull.  
 

id bet money that in the not too distant future, motorized kayaks will be going 6-8mph.

 

Actuakly now that i think of it, the EPDL from old town gets 6mph from a E-bike type of system.  I'm pretty sure that hull is probably very similar if not exactly the same as the autopilot. 

[Koz]

3 hours ago, Jeffrey Walker said:

I don't think i buy this whole hull design stuff. If you threw a 5hp on there and if the plastic could support it,  that thing is going a lot faster.  I don't care what the hull design is.  The issue is the plastic boat - not the hull.  
 

id bet money that in the not too distant future, motorized kayaks will be going 6-8mph.

 

Actuakly now that i think of it, the EPDL from old town gets 6mph from a E-bike type of system.  I'm pretty sure that hull is probably very similar if not exactly the same as the autopilot. 

The hull design and the weight of the craft play a huge role in speed. The fluid dynamics are similar to the aerodynamics that we see in race cars.

 

Lighter weight, narrower kayaks are already getting 8-9 mph on Torqeedo motors.

 

Weight is a big factor in my own kayak speed, but I choose to run with two 100ah lifepo batteries.

[Zcoker]

17 hours ago, Koz said:

 

Speed will have to come from the hull design and/or decreasing weight. 

 

Decreasing weight is a BIG factor. I've seen so many yaks loaded...and I mean loaded with all kinds of stuff, stuff that's hardly used or there just in case or there just to look pretty. Thinning out the heard, going as light as possible, all can make more of a difference than a prop change as it relates to speed and maneuverability. Probably about the best one can do with these current OT hulls. Other weight savings like carbon fiber oar and lithium batteries although costly can also play a roll. One by one, things can be picked off or simplified or lightened up, resulting in more efficiency all the way around. 

[FryDog62]

2 minutes ago, Zcoker said:

 

Decreasing weight is a BIG factor. I've seen so many yaks loaded...and I mean loaded with all kinds of stuff, stuff that's hardly used or there just in case or there just to look pretty. Thinning out the heard, going as light as possible, all can make more of a difference than a prop change as it relates to speed and maneuverability. Probably about the best one can do with these current OT hulls. Other weight savings like carbon fiber oar although costly can also play a roll. One by one, things can be picked off or simplified or lightened up, resulting in more efficiency all the way around. 

No doubt weight is a factor… but after I added the big 16x16 yak tackle box, 8 rods, 2 gps units/livescope, lunch/cooler, net, I’ve only dropped from 4.1 to 3.8 mph. 
 

[Zcoker]

15 minutes ago, FryDog62 said:

No doubt weight is a factor… but after I added the big 16x16 yak tackle box, 8 rods, 2 gps units/livescope, lunch/cooler, net, I’ve only dropped from 4.1 to 3.8 mph. 
 

Yep, the margin with speed is very low either way. I went the light and efficient route in my OT and do about 5mph with a good wind at my back. I'm sure if I loaded it down like you I'd drop into the three's. 

[Koz]

19 minutes ago, FryDog62 said:

No doubt weight is a factor… but after I added the big 16x16 yak tackle box, 8 rods, 2 gps units/livescope, lunch/cooler, net, I’ve only dropped from 4.1 to 3.8 mph. 
 

I have close to 60 pounds in batteries alone. I may swap out one of the 100ah batteries for a 36ah or 50ah to save some weight. 

 

The second battery runs my lights, livescope, and two other transducers and head units. But on tournament days it also serves as a backup for the trolling motor so I can run longer at top speed. I dread being 9 miles out and running down the trolling motor.

[casts_by_fly]

48 minutes ago, FryDog62 said:

No doubt weight is a factor… but after I added the big 16x16 yak tackle box, 8 rods, 2 gps units/livescope, lunch/cooler, net, I’ve only dropped from 4.1 to 3.8 mph. 
 

 

That's about the same for me.  Year on year I've added a little more here and there.  The first runs in the boat (March 2021) I just had the motor, 80 AH Lithium, helix 7, and me.  I think I had one rod maybe and 2-3 lures.  I was getting a consistent 4.0-4.1 mph on the power prop.  Fast forward to this year and I was getting a consistent 3.6 mph.  I thought for sure my brushes were burned out so I replaced them (they didn't look too bad).  Speed change?  nope.  Still consistently 3.6.  The past few trips I've left the Helix 9 and live mount in the truck.  I've taken a 3700 box or two out.  I've personally slimmed down 10 lb.  Now I'm back to 3.7 consistently and touching 3.8.  Next trip is the finesse trip and I'll lighten up another 15 lb.  I think the AP is sensitive to nose weight in particular.  I notice it when I am leaning forward adjusting the helix when on a run.  I'll drop 0.1-0.3 mph as the nose is digging down.  Then when I sit back I can pick it back up.  

11 hours ago, Jeffrey Walker said:

I don't think i buy this whole hull design stuff. If you threw a 5hp on there and if the plastic could support it,  that thing is going a lot faster.  I don't care what the hull design is.  The issue is the plastic boat - not the hull.  
 

id bet money that in the not too distant future, motorized kayaks will be going 6-8mph.

 

Actuakly now that i think of it, the EPDL from old town gets 6mph from a E-bike type of system.  I'm pretty sure that hull is probably very similar if not exactly the same as the autopilot. 

 

Speed vs propulsion is an exponential relationship, i.e. to double your speed you need 4x the propulsion for a given design and speed.  For a different boat and a higher speed you need 8x the propulsion for 2x the speed.  Eventually you hit the point of minimal gains for ANY increase in power.

 

Similar, brushed electric motors have limits.  The prop has limits.  A brushed electric motor can only take so many amps and turn so many RPMs before you start burning things up.  A prop will start to slip in the water and you need a bigger prop (which doesn't fit in the AP hole).  

 

All of those factors are in play for the AP with the standard motor.  Increasing it to a 55 lb 12V brushed bottom motor would probably get 0.2 mph, maybe 0.4.  The prop would be limiting at that point.  Same if you went up to an 80 lb 24V.  As you see on yours, going brushless on the back with a different prop design gives a lot more power.  But, you're putting down triple the power for 50% more speed.  You're already running up the power/output curve.

 

The EPDL is the bigwater Hull design, not the sportsman design.  Its a lot more sleek in the water, sits a little shallower, and is no where near the drag.  Its been that way for a while (the bigwater) and is consistently ony of the fastest hulls in a fishing kayak for a given propulsion.

[Bankc]

I've seen those racing sailboats with hydrofoils.  I need to do something like that with my kayak.  I think that's the next step in kayak fishing. 

 

https://youtu.be/yUBwqBRgun8?feature=shared

[Zcoker]

This kinda conversation is all part of the evolution of factory motorized kayaks, imho. At first, here, like they are now, they're docile, not necessarily all out speed demons designed for tournaments. No, the designers had other intentions, a combination of many things. They're proprietary as well, which makes them harder to upgrade. Yet the aftermarket world will find a way, sooner or later, like it always does for just about everything. They'll have standalone packages for these yaks, upgrades to take them to the outer limits. As we motorize into the future, more and more companies will be offering fully motorized kayaks, some like the OT, others all out speed demons and tournament kings. I recall when I first bought my turbo Ford Ranger, having joined a forum, I sooner started seeing massive upgrades for this truck, not only from other manufactures but from Ford itself. Upgrades that turned it into an all out racing machine. Just a matter of time for these factory motorzized kayaks, which are gaining very high popularity. Old Town appears to be the pioneer of the fully motorized technology. So they are ahead of the game. 

[Fishingmickey]

21 hours ago, FryDog62 said:

Part of me would like to see OT come out with a 155 lb thrust kayak motor for the Autopilot!  Of course I'd probably need a 300 AH lithium battery too ~ 

Naw, just 36 volt and 50-75 AH would do it. 

FM

[John G1]

I just ordered a AP120 and am already researching for ways to augment the power. I like the $7 airplane prop upgrade, and may get around to trying that, but adding a stern motor; something with 85lbs of thrust seems like a really nice option too. Not sure I'll want or need the extra power after taking it out a few times, but it seems like these kayaks are so stable, that they can and should be able to safely handle a lot more speeed, versus cruising with just a center mounted 45lb thrust trolling motor.  Sure you can debate whether you want or even need more power, but I'd rather have too much power, than not enough. There is the added redundancy for safety to consider too, despite the added weight associated with a second 12v motor, powered by another 100ah battery.

How about using a kite or sail for added power. Has anyone tred that? 

[Zcoker]

23 hours ago, John G1 said:

How about using a kite or sail for added power. Has anyone tred that? 

 

 

Lol Like in the movie 'Waterworld' that kite that he ejected for more speed. Something along those lines, I presume....