The single best FFS conversation/debate I've heard.....Josh Jones on the Bilge Podcast

[gim]

11 minutes ago, LrgmouthShad said:

Yes lake study can be helpful. 

Tell you what helps me ahead of time, asking someone who has recently been there.  The lakes I fish are no secret, but they generally are not over loaded with constant fishing pressure.  I can usually communicate with someone or draw upon my recent outings before I go.

 

I rarely fish brand new water, but studying up on lake surveys, maps, etc would definitely be beneficial in that particular case.

[LrgmouthShad]

@gimruis ironically, as I am continuing to try to understand Stillhouse, I'm increasingly being pushed towards areas where more people are fishing. I'm looking for a better class of fish, and there came a point where I just had to take a step back, look at what I had been catching, and say to myself "That's not good enough." So I try new things and new areas. The new areas that I'm looking into share some common characteristics. One of which, coincidentally, is more anglers. I still have some spots mostly to myself. There's a whole region of the lake, in fact, that really doesn't get touched a lot but that's where I got the fish that went over 6.5. Which is "getting there" in terms of size. But back to the main point... I agree with you that other anglers often know what they are doing. I saw the same thing on Somerville, where everything that I knew about and thought I would have to myself, other people knew about too. It's okay. I'm coming to these spots based on my own study and I've still got some areas to myself.

[Dirtyeggroll]

4 hours ago, Catt said:

@Dirtyeggroll did you watch the video?

 

Both Josh & Chris stated you can simply turn the FFS on & ride around until you see fish. And yes they both agreed once you find em you still gotta catch em. 

 

FFS has eliminated the hunt, one no longer needs to understand structure, weather effects, bass behavior, just turn it on & go.

 

Don't remember if it was Josh or Ben Milliken who stated once they launched their boat, they turn the unit on & ride around until they see fish they want to target. 

 

I seen videos of guys using cameras, that way they certain it bass.

Both Josh Jones and Ben Milliken have a vast amount of knowledge about fish behavior that predates FFS. So I don’t think their opinion about being able to just turn it on and find fish is all that relevant. Moreover, both of them have magnitudes more time in to using FFS than likely any of us will achieve.

I certainly cannot do this and while I am no pro, I have far more than the average amount of time thinking and planning about fishing. Maybe I am just bad at FFS.

 

 

now all of this doesn’t apply to crappie fishing. I’d never crappie fished more than from a dock and went for the first time this winter from my boat and caught a bunch using FFS. Maybe I could’ve done the same with 2D or DI but I think FFS probably helped.

 

Regarding tournaments… I’m not really a fan of them anyhow. I grew up fishing well into my 20’s not knowing a thing about competitive fishing and the more I know about it, the more I dislike it. So sure, bam FFS for tournaments.

[Catt]

4 minutes ago, Dirtyeggroll said:

So I don’t think their opinion about being able to just turn it on and find fish is all that relevant.

 

Why?

 

Everything else they said is relevant except that part?

[TnRiver46]

On 10/7/2023 at 10:24 AM, greentrout said:

Private waters, for some, with dues are the way to go. FFS is not fishing. It's harvesting.

That’s pretty funny. I bet if you give me FFS and tell me

to go catch something to eat, I’m guaranteed to come back empty handed. It ain’t easy 

 

I’ve been in a boat with livescope and I can’t read it to save my life, I catch fish much easier without it 

[Dirtyeggroll]

14 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

Why?

 

Everything else they said is relevant except that part?

I think I’m starting to get a bit off topic.

 

im getting outside of tournament fishing.

 

 

[TnRiver46]

You can’t wipe out crappies with a gill net, they will be just fine 

[Team9nine]

The population as a whole will be fine, but you will see the size structure on many of these lakes change dramatically, possibly to the point of irreparable harm. The crappie crowd was well ahead of the bass guys in adopting FFS, and to a much greater degree. Combine that with a harvest mentality, and fisheries will be changed - my guess is sooner, rather than later.

[TnRiver46]

I’m not on board with “irreplaceable,” we underestimate all wildlife especially r selected species versus k selected species 

 

im guessing people said the exact same type stuff when the first fish finders came out. All of a sudden they point forward and fish arent going to be able to handle it? Flashers are live 

[Team9nine]

Not ‘irreplaceable’, but ‘irreparable,’ to the point where the numbers of big fish won’t recover because severe enough restrictions on harvest won’t allow it (won’t be accepted by the public). Look at Minnesota’s history as an example of this, but for a slightly different reason.

 

And there is a big difference between flashers and FFS when it comes to the ability to individually target the largest crappie (or bass for that matter). It changed the entire game of professional crappie angling in just a matter of a few years. It’s not the “live” aspect as much as it is the definition and image created (interpretation). Night and day.

[TLHSS]

I live such a non-complicated life. I fish from the bank, cast a senko from my spinning rod and hope for the best. 😊

[gim]

1 hour ago, Team9nine said:

The population as a whole will be fine, but you will see the size structure on many of these lakes change dramatically, possibly to the point of irreparable harm.

I should have mentioned this in my initial post on crappie fishing.  The crappie anglers are not after 6 inchers - they want 10+ ones so they can eat em.  So really it's a specific parameter of the population they're after, which are coincidentally, the ones that spawn.  Reducing or eliminating the genetics of larger fish also creates a stunted population of panfish.  We've seen this for many years up here already with the lack of adult northern pike - we have many lakes that have an abundance of small, aggressive ones because the big ones were removed for too long.  And up here in the north, it also takes longer to replace sizable fish because for 5 months of the year they are locked under ice cubes and there is no growth.

[TnRiver46]

23 minutes ago, TLHSS said:

I live such a non-complicated life. I fish from the bank, cast a senko from my spinning rod and hope for the best. 😊

That can be surprisingly effective! Lots of people on here slay fish without depth finders at all 

[Tennessee Boy]

7 hours ago, Team9nine said:

This study basically concludes no difference between LIS and non-LIS users, but you can’t just take the outcome of a study as an absolute without paying particular attention to the study details and specific results.

I absolutely agree!   Controlled scientific studies simply provide evidence based on the methods used in the study.   One  small winter study in Kansas doesn’t prove anything.  It does provide evidence that getting FFS doesn’t immediately make a novice crappie fisherman any better.  FFS is clearly an important tool that makes you a better angler once you master it.   It’s a big step forward in technology but I don’t think it’s the biggest step we’ve ever seen.  It’s does make for dramatic/scary YouTube videos depending on how you feel about it.

[TnRiver46]

^+3!!

[Woody B]

I've got a bunch of comments, not directed at anyone in this thread and not intended to step on anyones toes.   I'm referring to live sonar/FFS/whatever as Active Target.  It's what I've got and IIRC it's what Josh Jones uses.   

 

First,  I suspect there's less than a dozen people in the World that could accomplish what Josh Jones has regardless of technology.  I haven't watched this or any or his videos, but I suspect this video is just for publicity.  He's charging an astronomical amount to take people fishing.   This video will probably just make more people hire him.   I'm guessing from earlier comments that the video mentions 80 something DD bass in 80 something trips.   If I were a millionaire I'd probably book a trip with him.   

 

Second, I don't know about Musky, or many other species but Bass are different than Crappie.   I'm not a Crappie fisherman (some people say I'm a crappy fisherman  LOL) but at the suggestion of a friend I bought an assortment of Crappie jigs to learn Active Target.   I could watch my bait, and the Crappie's reaction, then change colors, presentation ect until they bit.  After that I could pretty much catch the whole school.   Bass simply aren't like that, at least the ones around here.   One or two tries and they're gone. (except when they're spawning)   Small Spotted bass will hang around longer from more lures and presentations but catching 10 inch long spotted bass isn't going to ruin anything.   I did use it once to target a big catfish.  I could tell by how it acted (and it's size) it wasn't a Bass.  It would follow my crankbait, then my bladed jig, but circle back to the same spot under a dock.   I caught it with a wacky rig on my 7th or 8th cast.   I was going to cast stuff to it until it bit or left.    (only cat I've caught on plastic)

 

"Riding around" using Active Target to find bass simply isn't going to happen unless you're in a really small lake or area.   It's live sonar.  It doesn't work very good while moving much over 1mph.   Down imaging, and side imaging (which is historical data) works better when moving 3 to 5 mph.   I've used them riding around to find bass, then stopped and started looking on Active Target.   I have followed schools of bait fish with Active Target and waited for some action.   This "action" always happens near some type fish holding structure.   I've had more success just going to the structure instead of following bait fish around looking at a screen.    

 

Like others I believe live wells, boat flips to carpet, hero pictures ect harm more bass than anything else.  Of course if more are caught due to technology there will be more bass harmed.  If we really want to help preserve big bass populations we need to stop these things.   

 

I also can't help but notice that most or all of the people who are saying how easy Active Target makes it to catch bass have never used it.   Obviously I didn't buy it because it makes Bass harder to catch, but it's simply not magic.   I live in Grover NC.  I mostly fish Lake Wylie, but occasionally fish other nearby lakes.  Anyone on Bass Resource is welcome to come with me fishing to see this stuff in use.   I can drive the boat, run the trolling motor, and run the electronics or you can.   (any combination,  your choice)

 

I'd like to have Mega 360.  It's not live but still "forward facing"  I don't need that much stuff hanging off the front of my boat, or that many screens to look at.   I was torn between buying Active Target or Mega 360.  I already had Lowrance stuff.  That's why I choose Active Target.  

[Susky River Rat]

@Woody B I have never used it. From what JJ has said and what I see musky guys do they chase down the fish after it leaves that area. I have heard many pros say TM on full blast chasing fish down to cast at. 
 

For others who have said you can’t tell what a fish is JJ negates that too. He learned to tell the difference and with the tech getting better it’s going to get easier. He won’t cast at a fish he thinks is under 10lbs.  JJ also said they are learning to do it  through thicker and thicker cover. People are using it to flip shallow docks. 
 

there is a guy in my area who figured out live scope for musky a few years ago. He makes the hardest lakes that people couldn’t get them out of look like a joke. 
 

They also briefly state how bait sales are dropping in baits that aren’t as FFS friendly. 
 

If FFS is permitted why not permit jets and tunnel hull boats? The same reason they won’t ban FFS. It all comes down to money. The ban is all talk and I think that’s all it will ever be unless the states take it into their hands. 
 

I think we should allow drones with heat imaging for hunting. That way you just have to get close enough to shoot the game. It’s not 100% you’re going to shoot it right? To me that is the same argument with the FFS. 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

Cellular game cams aren't that far off from the hunting version of FFS.   

 

At this time only pest animals are allowed to be harvested with Night Vision or Thermal around here, and I've actually seen a drone thermal hog hunt in Texas lol.   

 

I think it's important for me to state that I'm not against FFS users, and given the opportunity would love to play with the tech for at least a few months.    I just know it's going to change the future of fishing, and already has.   I do think the tech could be restricted majorly in the future.   

 

Nice to see you watched the video, it's easy to weigh in on this topic without watching it as we all have opinions on this matter......the key for starting this thread is the very unique things said in that video, or at least I found them unique and eye opening.   

[Susky River Rat]

@AlabamaSpothunter I did watch it twice. i like making opinions on facts. Who better to get them from than one of the best in the game at FFS? I am not saying it’s not a skill. However, once that skill is mastered it truly is the game changer all us anti FFS guys fear.
 

JJ also said 10lb bass don’t excite him anymore. Could you imagine catching that many DD bass that it doesn’t make you shake at the knees anymore?
 

KVD briefly touched on it in one of the videos to. Saying how over the years he would have made way less casts or changed color/tech sooner. 

I also am not looking at it from the stand point of what others catch. I look at it simply from a stand point as you will be making fish for everyone harder and harder to catch. 
 

I wonder how it’s effecting peoples local weekly tournament at their lakes. This is a trickle effect down from the pros. People will be spending an extra 4K to win a few hundred  on a Tuesday night. Which If you have the money spend it. At the same time how is that driving people away knowing that’s the only way they stand a chance?

[Catt]

4 hours ago, Woody B said:

 

"Riding around" using Active Target to find bass simply isn't going to happen unless you're in a really small lake or area.

 

Interesting since that's exactly what Josh says he does. One video he started at the boat launch & caught a hawg at the launch. 

 

9 hours ago, TLHSS said:

I live such a non-complicated life. I fish from the bank, cast a senko from my spinning rod and hope for the best. 😊

 

You & me both 😉

 

I'm still doing quite well out a Jon boat with a little Helix 5.

[volzfan59]

What Josh Jones is saying is correct. I'm not a crappie angler, but my brother in law is a big time crappie guy. There are several crappie lakes, albeit smaller lake, that are being fished out by crappie anglers using FFS. Some unscrupulous crappie anglers go out in the morning and get a limit. They get their limit and go home only to return in the evening. I know that it's been going on, even prior to FFS. When I used to trout fish there were folks that did it too. It is unsustainable and will destroy some of our smaller lakes. Heck, there are guys using FFS to bluegill fish, the simplest of all fish to catch. Seen guys with $500.00, beat up jon boats with at least $1500.00 to $2000.00 worth of electronics. Not illegal, their life and their money.

 

The answer? I'm not sure. As far as  tournaments go, I'd be for allowing it during practice periods only and not during the tournament itself. That does absolutely nothing to help the sustainablility aspect though. I'm afraid that it may be to late, the toothpaste is out of the tube.

 

Speaking only for myself, I'm almost 100% a bass angler and don't need it and I don't want it. I do admit to sinking a cricket under a float from time to time. Can I afford FFS? Certainly can but I fish to enjoy God's creation now, the catching is simply an added bonus. I have two 7" Garmin's on my boat now, not FFS. All I use them for is water depth, water temp and bottom composition. If it ever gets to the point that I have to have FFS to catch fish, I'll sell my rig and move on.

[TOXIC]

Do I have a problem with it in tournaments? No.  Do I have a problem when it impacts the entire fishery? Definitely yes.  The problem is finding the nexus of those 2 comments.  If anything goes then why ban the A-Rig?  Why ban live bait? Why ban rods over 8ft? Slippery slope.  

[TnRiver46]

The one thing I think is funny about discussions limiting or banning FfS, no way they could enforce that in tournament or DNR. Tournaments can’t even enforce the rules they already have 

[LrgmouthShad]

@TnRiver46

[txchaser]

I was surprised at how few days he said he guided per year. I expected 200+, I heard 90. 

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I'm still waiting for the BR post that's along the lines of "OMG I got FFS, I caught 50 fish today and two dd's"