The single best FFS conversation/debate I've heard.....Josh Jones on the Bilge Podcast

[Susky River Rat]

@txchaser I don’t think that is a fair analogy. Out of all the people here how many live in an area that supports a fishable population of DD fish. You can’t catch what doesn’t swim in your water ways. Then how many continuously active members are there that do fish these waterways?

[txchaser]

That's a fair point, but my recollection of the 'got ffs' posts so far are more on the end of 'dang this is hard'

I'd like to think we could adjust mentally for locations that grow smaller fish.

 

My personal experiences were dang this is hard, but I can see how leaning into it could absolutely get you on fish that were otherwise tough to find or catch. But it'll take real time, and it isn't magic. Sometimes even more frustrating - I can see that fish, I know it's a bass, it's setup to eat, bite dangit!

 

I may have an unreasonable perspective on some of this since I'm in texas so there's monsters everywhere. 

 

I wonder if anyone has easy access to compare winning weights over the last three years - seems like there would be a big rise in winning (or top10?) and average weights if it was really.

 

 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

The SM Elite series derby weights up north have been smashed each successive year starting a few years ago.   

One guy broke the century belt on SLR a year or two ago, 3 did it this, and the only reason a 4th didn't was because he lost half a day with a broken boat.    

 

Ben Milliken almost broke the all time Opens record for a winning weight at Toledo Bend.

 

I barely follow the MLF but they were blowing out records scoping on Guntersville, and all the SM derbies up north as well.   

 

All that said, they're only as good as the fisheries they were at and that's not a constant factor for a three year period.   

 

You're 1000% right, it's not magic, but people who really try to learn it seem to learn it and go on to become vastly better anglers in terms of numbers/size. 

 

AOY winner Kyle Welcher is an awesome case study.......dude is an absolute hammer with zero electronics on the boat, but he said a few ago he saw the future and he spent all his free time learning to scope.   Flash forward to this year, and he scoped his way to AOY, because by his own words essentially, he had too.   If not him, somebody would use the tech to win as long as it's allowed.     

[Susky River Rat]

@txchaseri do not think anyone doesn’t think it’s a skill to learn. It is something that once you figure it out it can be magic josh jones is 100% example of that. 
 

fishing is getting harder. More people doing it more technology to find fish. I would think the people who have FFS figured out are having much better days than the people who don’t. 
 

I also would argue the person who fishes once  a week might not see that noticeable difference with FFS. A guy who fished 4-5 times a week will. 

[txchaser]

9 minutes ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

The SM Elite series derby weights up north have been smashed each successive year starting a few years ago.   

One guy broke the century belt on SLR a year or two ago, 3 did it this, and the only reason a 4th didn't was because he lost half a day with a broken boat.    

 

Ben Milliken almost broke the all time Opens record for a winning weight at Toledo Bend.

 

I barely follow the MLF but they were blowing out records scoping on Guntersville, and all the SM derbies up north as well.   

 

All that said, they're only as good as the fisheries they were at and that's not a constant factor for a three year period.   

 

You're 1000% right, it's not magic, but people who really try to learn it seem to learn it and go on to become vastly better anglers in terms of numbers/size. 

 

AOY winner Kyle Welcher is an awesome case study.......dude is an absolute hammer with zero electronics on the boat, but he said a few ago he saw the future and he spent all his free time learning to scope.   Flash forward to this year, and he scoped his way to AOY, because by his own words essentially, he had too.   If not him, somebody would use the tech to win as long as it's allowed.     

That's good data, thank you.

 

3 minutes ago, Darnold335 said:

 

I also would argue the person who fishes once  a week might not see that noticeable difference with FFS. A guy who fished 4-5 times a week will. 

100%

 

I think both of the above separate the implications of FFS in tournament fishing vs just in general, which I suppose was most of the original video's point.

[Susky River Rat]

@txchaser I do think over all it will be detrimental to the sport. Right now it’s more so at the pro ranks. The better your weekend warrior gets at it is when you will see the decline in the fisheries. I can tell you there is the unwritten rule “don’t fish for musky over 80 degree water temps” I can down right promise you the same people preaching it are still doing it. It will be the same way with pulling big bass out of deep water in the hot months. Which will be more prone  to dying. Which if we lose more and more big fish with good genes that will hurt the fisheries. 
 

It will raise/ is raising  the cost of the sport. More and more people think they need 20k worth of electronics on their boat. If they want to even be competitive in local tournaments. Some also buy into it’s the way I need to fish because pros do. 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

From now until the Spawn, all guys do in my local monkey hangouts is talk about seeing fish run away from their A-Rigs on the scope.   There's no doubt fish evolve, but when you got a dozen other options besides an A Rig including stuff like Hover Juggles, you learn to put the A Rig down, and use the fairy wand on them.  Milliken's video over the last few years have proven this.

He still catches them on big baits, but he is using the Hover Juggle a lot more to fool these wary big fish.  

[casts_by_fly]

10 hours ago, txchaser said:

That's a fair point, but my recollection of the 'got ffs' posts so far are more on the end of 'dang this is hard'

I'd like to think we could adjust mentally for locations that grow smaller fish.

 

My personal experiences were dang this is hard, but I can see how leaning into it could absolutely get you on fish that were otherwise tough to find or catch. But it'll take real time, and it isn't magic. Sometimes even more frustrating - I can see that fish, I know it's a bass, it's setup to eat, bite dangit!

 

 

10 hours ago, Darnold335 said:

I also would argue the person who fishes once  a week might not see that noticeable difference with FFS. A guy who fished 4-5 times a week will. 

 

 

As someone who has picked up FFS this year and fishes in a location that has smaller fish, I can tell you that (1) yes its hard and (2) fishing 4-5 times a week is probably necessary to get really good with it.  I had a down year for days spent on the water compared to the last two, so I definitely didn't get as much time with it as I wanted.  I think I've played with it now enough that I'm confident in how to set it up for various waters and conditions.  I can set it up to see my lure most of the time.  I've mostly figured out the cone of view (though being in a kayak makes that harder).  I've not watched a fish from spot, cast, bite, hookset yet.  I played with perch early in the season since they schooled and are semi aggressive about following lures.  I used FFS to give me an accurate picture of grass lines which is incredibly helpful.  I've seen fish on it that I'm certain were bass, but I couldn't convert them to catches.  I've also seen musky on it at one of my regular lakes which gives me some insight on how they go about their day.  

 

My goal in getting it was to have a real time view of what's under me.  I wasn't worried about watching fish eat my bait or even react to it.  I wanted to know if there were fish there or if I was wasting my time fishing where I was.  One season on now, I can see some of the benefits I was looking for and at the same time think I may expand the uses next year.  Its helped me confirm fish were in places I thought they'd be.  Whether they were eating or not, I know that my logic was sound for fishing there at that time.  As I said above, seeing weed lines in places that I'd have a hard time graphing over them or even if I could find them on side imaging keeping track of them while fishing is a big plus for FFS.  Being able to see 'something' on side or down imaging and then really picking it apart visually with FFS is really cool (though I can't say that it converted to fish numbers yet).

 

All in, its a tool that you need to learn how to use.  I think the pro's have it figured out.  If you don't you're behind the curve in most places (Okeechobee was won with it!).  I think the casual angler won't get to that level.  Darnold's comment about guys fishing 4-5 days a week is probably right.  I averaged a trip every week or so this year, but it was very clumpy and the trips were abbreviated.  I spent a lot of time getting FFS right at the start of the season and on slow days I'd put some time in, but a lot of the time I just wanted to go down the bank and catch a few fish in the limited time I had available.  If you're only fishing saturday mornings, chances are you're not going to put enough time into it to get really good.  Certainly not the majority of guys that have it which is almost certainly a minority if fishermen in the first place.

 

[Tennessee Boy]

10 hours ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

There's no doubt fish evolve, but when you got a dozen other options besides an A Rig including stuff like Hover Juggles, you learn to put the A Rig down, and use the fairy wand on them.

Have you heard the term “getting the school to fire”.  What you’re describing has been happening for years.  Take KVDs last win on Chickamauga.  He didn’t have live sonar, he did have 360.  He found a bunch of fish on a ledge and stayed on them for most of the tournament.  He threw different baits to try to get them to bite and he just stayed there until they started biting.  He didn’t have other fish to go to so he focused one the fish he had located.   Being able to watch them react might have helped but sometimes they don’t react.  Finding the fish in the first place was the real skill that he had that most weekends anglers don’t have.

[TOXIC]

Are we glossing over his statements about winning crappie tournaments on lakes he was never on or even prefished? Beating out locals who knew the water well. Plus the fact that he saw crappie lakes totally devastated from FFS? Do you not think that if the main quarry is largemouth or smallmouth, the same thing won’t happen? 

[Tennessee Boy]

Can someone tell me the name of a crappie fishery that has been totally devastated by FFS?  I want to look into it. 🙂

[casts_by_fly]

17 minutes ago, TOXIC said:

Are we glossing over his statements about winning crappie tournaments on lakes he was never on or even prefished? Beating out locals who knew the water well. Plus the fact that he saw crappie lakes totally devastated from FFS? Do you not think that if the main quarry is largemouth or smallmouth, the same thing won’t happen? 

 

I'm going to guess "not to the same extent".  With the way crappies school and then the school doesn't move with pressure, it makes them highly susceptible to FFS.  I think perch would be the same way.  When I played with the perch earlier this year they were really easy to see and find on FFS.  You could park right on top of them and they wouldn't move.  I didn't have the right baits to catch them (the smallest I had was a 3.8 keitech) but I'm sure I could have sat there and limited out.  I'm pretty sure I could go do it there now, sorting through the bigger and smaller fish to only take the bigger ones worth filleting (which happen to be the main breeders with perch).  I think with bass, they are less schooling overall and more apt to shut down or move off with pressure (spawning season aside, which is a whole nuther discussion worth having).  If it took KVD a full day to work through a school (even without FFS), I'm pretty sure your weekend warrior wouldn't spend the time to figure them out.

[TnRiver46]

2 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

Can someone tell me the name of a crappie fishery that has been totally devastated by FFS?  I want to look into it. 🙂

Hahaha! Thank you for that 

 

I watch all the bilge podcast and I thought this was boring crap they’ve already talked about so many times. 

[WRB]

A percentage of big bass are simply uncatchable using artificial lures, these fish will survive the impact of technology and pass on the genes.

You will know when that occurs!

Tom

[Susky River Rat]

@WRB you already have walleye and catfish guys throwing live bait down to fish. People will do it for bass too. Guys running trolling spreads for musky are using it while they troll to see ahead of them. 

[gim]

On 10/11/2023 at 9:49 PM, AlabamaSpothunter said:

The SM Elite series derby weights up north have been smashed each successive year starting a few years ago.   

One guy broke the century belt on SLR a year or two ago, 3 did it this, and the only reason a 4th didn't was because he lost half a day with a broken boat.    

 

Ben Milliken almost broke the all time Opens record for a winning weight at Toledo Bend.

 

I barely follow the MLF but they were blowing out records scoping on Guntersville, and all the SM derbies up north as well.   

 

All that said, they're only as good as the fisheries they were at and that's not a constant factor for a three year period.   

I think the most obvious examples are with the big smallmouth fisheries up north in midsummer.  And that's exactly part of the problem: they're held in midsummer when fish have moved to deeper water offshore.  Hold those tournaments a different time of year and the tactics/presentations will change dramatically.

 

I fish one of these large northern smallmouth waters every year a few times, and I purposefully target it in the spring during prespawn, or in the fall just as I did 2 days ago.  You know why?  Because the fish are not sitting on deeper off shore structure!  I can fish them in shallower water with a more aggressive approach.  Just the other day I was snapping a jerk bait or bumping a crank bait on rocks.  Its not only effective but its a heck of a lot more fun that sitting on a 25 foot hump staring at a screen with a drop shot.  Vertically fishing for smallmouth in the middle of summer over offshore structure is seriously the least entertaining form of bass fishing that exists.

 

If they keep scheduling these events in July or August up north, they can expect to continue to see the same tactics and results bear out.  You reap what you sow.

[Glenn]

And now B.A.S.S. has formed a committee to look into the future use of FFS:

https://www.bassresource.com/bass_fishing_123/FFS-Tournament-Rules-Review-101323.html

 

[gim]

1 hour ago, Glenn said:

And now B.A.S.S. has formed a committee to look into the future use of FFS:

https://www.bassresource.com/bass_fishing_123/FFS-Tournament-Rules-Review-101323.html

 

 

Somewhere, Kyoyo Fujita just said to himself "oh sh**" in Japanese.

[Susky River Rat]

@Glenn I do like that they are forming a committee to analyze this. Rather than do a knee jerk decision like the PMTT did and pull it mid season. I think it’s the right thing to do. You can’t please everyone including myself  with a choice that is made. I just hope this will truly shed the light on the matter.  

[A-Jay]

27 minutes ago, Glenn said:

And now B.A.S.S. has formed a committee to look into the future use of FFS:

https://www.bassresource.com/bass_fishing_123/FFS-Tournament-Rules-Review-101323.html

 

Very Interesting.

Really looking forward to seeing where B.A.S.S ends up on this one.

Did they just open the door ?

Or is it more like quoting Rick Nelson, late American Musician;

"you can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself".

A-Jay

 ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself

 

 

[TOXIC]

When there is a piece of equipment or technology that redefines the sport then I feel it’s definitely worth a look. 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

42 minutes ago, gimruis said:

 

Somewhere, Kyoyo Fujita just said to himself "oh sh**."

Joey Cifuentes and Patrick Walters are right there as well.....you can imagine a number of guys are quite nervous right now.   While others are praying it happens, and they have a fighting chance again.    IIrc in the video they say Walters was the first one to win a big derby on FFS.   

[LrgmouthShad]

This thread really finally has allowed everyone to get their thoughts out about the technology. We’ve had threads in the past but it seems recently that there’s more debate surrounding this technology than ever. So hats off to @AlabamaSpothunter for starting the discussion and as I said before it’ll be really interesting to see where things go from here 

[TnRiver46]

The first sentence said they would allow it in 2024 so I’d say kyoya will be just fine 

 

again, they couldn’t enforce a ban anyway 

[gim]

28 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

The first sentence said they would allow it in 2024 so I’d say kyoya will be just fine 

 

He's still sweating more than a cat on a tin roof.  You know he is.