The single best FFS conversation/debate I've heard.....Josh Jones on the Bilge Podcast

[Tennessee Boy]

So JJ wants to ban FFS in half the tournaments to allow the old guys to remain competitive.  While we’re at it, let’s make the NFL a touch football league.  That might make it possible to bring back Tom Brady, Payton Manning,  maybe even Joe Namath.  😆

 

If you want to compete at the highest level you have to be able to compete against competitors of all ages.  If you want to watch old guys fish,  do like golf and create a seniors league.

 

 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

It's a bit different than that, what they are saying is that the new guys can pretty much only use the screen, Fujita is a perfect example of this, and they used him as an example.    If he wasn't on a good scoping lake, he wasn't going to have a respectable finish, on the other hand, if FFS was in play, he was all but assured a top 10.  

 

They don't want the old guys there for sentimental value, they want them there to watch real savant technique focused anglers.   And while FFS usage is one of those types, it seems that the younger and younger a competitor is these days, the more he's a one trick pony on the scope.   

 

I think all fans can agree we shouldn't be reducing the number of exciting techniques being utilized by pros.   

[Tennessee Boy]

Greg Hackney sums up my opinion on this subject very well.

 

https://www.bassmaster.com/column/greg-hackney/you-dont-need-forward-facing-sonar/

[WRB]

I did post a thread on FFS a few years ago stating this technology is a game changer. Now the cat is out of the bag and FFS is dominating most tournaments with big bass catches concern is raising as it should.

My argument is related more of survival rates of big bass in live wells is poor from my own experience catching lots DD bass. I made up a 10’ stringer with SST D clip and 12 oz weight to keep the big bass in cool water before releasing her. IMO never put these special bass in a livewell is ideal.

With our iPhone cameras and accurate digital scales there isn’t a good reason to put big bass in a livewell for a weigh in.

Josh Jones advocating tournaments limiting use for 5O% of the event is hypocritical at best.  

Tom

[gim]

2 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

While we’re at it, let’s make the NFL a touch football league.  

NFL football was never touch football, ever, whereas bass fishing (and fishing in general) has been without live sonar for a very long time.  That's not a very good comparison.

[Dirtyeggroll]

Social media is 10,000x more detrimental to bass fishing than FFS.

 

Fishing used to be a fringe recreation. 
 

now you got every Justin Bieber wanting to make a YouTube video like clickbait Billy did and broadcasting his catch at all the local lakes.

 

For example, the molestation example of O. H. would have been magnitudes less bad not a Northerner made a video about. 60-lb bag.

 

When the fad of fishing passes, and it will, the impact of FFS will be much less.

 

[Tennessee Boy]

2 hours ago, gimruis said:

That's not a very good comparison.

It was not an argument,  that’s why it ended with a smiley face.  🙂
 

I’m okay with any technology limits on tournaments if there’s a demand for it.   Kayak tournaments don’t allow bass boats and are popular with people that don’t have or don’t want bass boats.  There are many people who think FFS should be banned so an FFS free league might do well.  If BASS wants to be that league,  then so be it.   However, if someone claims they can compete at the highest level,  I think they have to master the current technology or be able to beat those that have.  Offshore structure fishing got much easier as GPS, high definition maps,  and down imaging became available to anglers.  Those who mastered the new technology quickly caught up with those who had mastered the older techniques for finding offshore fish.  JJ said mastering FFS is not easy.  I’ve have it and agree.  It’s a valuable skill that makes you a better angler and that should be recognized.  Those who think it’s cheating tend to be those that don’t have it.  

[gim]

43 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

It’s a valuable skill that makes you a better angler and that should be recognized.  Those who think it’s cheating tend to be those that don’t have it.  

I don't think it's cheating.  But mounting 8 units and just scanning water is ridiculous.  No one should be fishing like that, period.

 

The bigger issue as it relates to fisheries is over harvest.  I don't think most of these pro gurus are using their live sonar knowledge or savvy to target bass and bring them home to eat.  But earlier in this thread I stated that ice anglers targeting panfish up here definitely are.  This is a more concerning problem right now than utilizing it in a competitive environment.

[Swamp Girl]

I think every bass fisher other than me should have TEN FFS units, as well as Aegis radar and helicopter pads aft. Their rigs will then be so big and heavy that I'll never see another boat on the backwoods ponds I fish. FWIW, I rarely see another boat as it is, but Aegis will seal the deal. 

[PhishLI]

In competition, this gear is steroids/ TRT, corked bats, loaded gloves, or whatever else you can think of that boosts outcomes artificially even if everyone is allowed to use it, and it's out of line with long standing tradition. It's only going become higher resolution going forward. What's next? Infrared? Satellite laser LIDAR? Why not? This newer stuff represents the best case for the proverbial asterisk next to any record. I'm a boxing/mma junkie, and while fitness regimens and rules have changed through the eras, the essence of the competition hasn't.

 

That said it doesn't affect me. I fish in shallow overgrown ponds with a no-boats policy 98% of the time, and the places I can boat fish in are so shallow that even a Striker 4 is basically useless. Personally, I have no dog in this fight other than it's making me care less about watching many tournaments, and I was watching them bell to bell up until recently.

 

Also, every place that gets pounded changes for the worse eventually unless it's loaded with Gobies or some other anomaly. Some people suggest that the fish will adapt. That isn't the case around here. Fishing pressure alone since the shutdown has crushed most of our spots with easy shore access. It's tougher than ever to get a bite.

[txchaser]

1 hour ago, PhishLI said:

What's next?

-360 degree live sonar rendered in a hologram off the front deck of the boat

-head-tracking AR glasses that move the scope with your head

-fish-tagging with tracking

-custom-trained AI lure and presentation suggestions based on what the FFS sees

-motorized lure that uses WIFI to the FFS unit to track the fish and get in front of them

 

 

 

Also, IMO boat flipping onto carpet and riding in livewells in tournaments probably puts more damage on the fish than extra pressure from FFS.

 

Anyone talked directly to TWPD brass to see if they are seeing any negative effect in Texas, at least beyond the social media effect on Ivey? 

[Pat Brown]

15 hours ago, LrgmouthShad said:

We know catch and release has a level of mortality associated with it. Once an angler becomes proficient with FFS, we’ve seen on tournament circuits and otherwise that the angler will catch more fish. 

 

There are a couple different things that I’m interested to see if they manifest.  The world is driven by incentives and if it gets harder to catch fish and larger ones on some bodies of water, marginally, more anglers will be driven away from the body of water. Like a market, demand and supply will balance out and there will be a new equilibrium created after the invent of FFS. 

 

There’s also some cover in lakes that makes FFS difficult to utilize. Will more fish reproduce in areas that are harder for anglers to reach or dissect? 
 

It’ll be really interesting. I’m just along for the ride

 

 

Bingo.

 

Lot of really good perspectives being offered here but another thing worth mentioning that they discussed:

 

A ban on live well technology in tournaments would actually make a lot more sense than banning FFS at this point.  When you catch a big fish it should be catch, weigh, release.  Get promo pics on the water and show catch recap clips on the big screen at weigh in for the top ten every day.

 

Boom, way less dead fish.

[Catt]

13 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

If you want to compete at the highest level you have to be able to compete against competitors of all ages

 

Competing against younger anglers is one thing competing against technology is another.

 

If you listened both Josh & Chris said FFS takes no skill to locate fish. Yes there's a level of skill required to catch the bass once located.

 

I know I'll catch backlash but to me it's like sitting in a little house up on piers, watching a feeder & calling it hunting!

 

In my opinion the hunt is more enjoyable than the kill. 

[Dirtyeggroll]

38 minutes ago, Catt said:

I know I'll catch backlash but to me it's like sitting in a little house up on piers, watching a feeder & calling it hunting!

 

@Catt this is not even close to the truth. As an experienced angler and that has been using FFS for about 3 years I can tell you that it doesn’t work like that at all. 95% of the time of you find fish with FFS most anglers won’t have any sort of idea what sort of fish they are. Just because you can see some marks moving around on the screen doesn’t mean you’ve found active fish or even the target species.

 

In most lakes if you point a live transducer into any portion of water you will see fish.

 

At least for bass fishing definitely takes skill to learn the behaviors of those fish and even to start in the areas that might be holding bass.

[Swamp Girl]

5 hours ago, Pat Brown said:

 

 

Bingo.

 

Lot of really good perspectives being offered here but another thing worth mentioning that they discussed:

 

A ban on live well technology in tournaments would actually make a lot more sense than banning FFS at this point.  When you catch a big fish it should be catch, weigh, release.  Get promo pics on the water and show catch recap clips on the big screen at weigh in for the top ten every day.

 

Boom, way less dead fish.

 

Pat (Sajak), I'd like to buy thirty likes for this post. Holding bass at weigh-ins turns these magnificent animals into props. 

 

#catchweighreleaserespectsthebeasts

[Catt]

@Dirtyeggroll did you watch the video?

 

Both Josh & Chris stated you can simply turn the FFS on & ride around until you see fish. And yes they both agreed once you find em you still gotta catch em. 

 

FFS has eliminated the hunt, one no longer needs to understand structure, weather effects, bass behavior, just turn it on & go.

 

Don't remember if it was Josh or Ben Milliken who stated once they launched their boat, they turn the unit on & ride around until they see fish they want to target. 

 

I seen videos of guys using cameras, that way they certain it bass.

[greentrout]

17 hours ago, Woody B said:

 

Have you ever fished with FFS?

No Sir. Live on the Gulf Coast. They are in use here. I'm not necessarily against technology but believe FFS pushes the envelope a little too far. That's all.

Old School

 

 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

@Dirtyeggroll did you watch the video?

 

Both Josh & Chris stated you can simply turn the FFS on & ride around until you see fish. And yes they both agreed once you find em you still gotta catch em. 

 

FFS has eliminated the hunt, one no longer needs to understand structure, weather effects, bass behavior, just turn it on & go.

 

Don't remember if it was Josh or Ben Milliken who stated once they launched their boat, they turn the unit on & ride around until they see fish they want to target. 

 

I seen videos of guys using cameras, that way they certain it bass.

I can't help but think a number of the replies in this thread come from those who didn't watch the video in it's entirety.   

 

I thought and said a lot of the things I've read in some of these replies, and that video changed my mind on many of those things.    

 

The weight JJ's opinion carries as being the most well known pioneer of the technology makes it's worth listening to closely imho.      

 

They all agree it's a skill, moreover it's a physical skill as much as anything....which is why it's a young man's game, not just because it's new fangled tech and older people struggle with tech traditionally.  

They talk about how long it takes to distinguish fish species, determine sizes, and get good and landing a cast on their head while the fish are moving and you're tracking the fish with the scope.

 

Ultimately though they say that when you can stare at a fish in real time, and continually present different presentations to it until it bites, that's not Bass fishing in the sense we've all known and loved it for decades and decades.   There simply isn't anywhere anymore for these fish to escape pressure.   

 

One derby angler spent his entire time learning how to scope fish, his entire game is built around FFS.  Fujita is a great example here.  

 

Another derby angler spent some time learning FFS but has a lifetime of fishing for Bass in the traditional non controversial methods.   Christie is a great example here, one of the first to get a win in part because of the tech, but since has been lapped by the young guys on the tech.    

 

If we go further in the FFS format in the future, Fujita will be considered the better Bass angler yet he pretty much only knows how to catch Bass one way, meanwhile Christie can catch them everyway under the sun.    

 

I'm trying to type out what the video laid out so well for the TL/DR crowd.  

 

[Tennessee Boy]

There is so much hype around FFS and much of it is coming from Josh Jones.   He talked about what FFS is doing to crappie fisheries.  Here’s the graphic from a two day scientific study that was done in Kansas with real every day crappie fishermen.  It shows crappie caught on the north and south side of the lake using or not using LIS (live imaging sonar).  The side of the lake mattered more than using FFS.  In pro tournaments I have no doubt that it’s having a bigger impact but in the real world it’s not as easy as it looks on YouTube.

 

 

 

Link to the study 

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ben-Neely/publication/364405993_Evaluating_effects_of_live-imaging_sonar_on_angler_catch_of_crappies_in_a_Kansas_impoundment/links/6362800e37878b3e8777a6ed/Evaluating-Effects-of-Live-Imaging-Sonar-on-Angler-Catch-of-Crappies-in-a-Kansas-Impoundment.pdf

 

[ElGuapo928]

I’m not too crazy about the idea of it……to me it ranks up there with those “high fence” hunts, wiping out trout lakes trolling cowbells, or even throwing dynamite in the water.

 

I don’t think it’s quite going to decimate fisheries, but I do think it should be banned from competition - if you don’t have the skills to find/catch fish without electronic intervention, then you should probably stay home and study up.

 

[LrgmouthShad]

@ElGuapo928 what is staying home and studying going to do for us? 😁

[Team9nine]

1 hour ago, Tennessee Boy said:

There is so much hype around FFS and much of it is coming from Josh Jones.   He talked about what FFS is doing to crappie fisheries.  Here’s the graphic from a two day scientific study that was done in Kansas with real every day crappie fishermen.  It shows crappie caught on the north and south side of the lake using or not using LIS (live imaging sonar).  The side of the lake mattered more than using FFS.  In pro tournaments I have no doubt that it’s having a bigger impact but in the real world it’s not as easy as it looks on YouTube.

 

This is why I said, there is room (for studies) to support arguments on both sides of the issue. This study basically concludes no difference between LIS and non-LIS users, but you can’t just take the outcome of a study as an absolute without paying particular attention to the study details and specific results. The study had several limitations and undefined criteria, which isn’t unusual. It also had an embarrassingly low catch (amount of data - IMO) on which to base conclusions on. But, at the general population level may be an accurate representation of what is occurring. 
 

I have no doubt that if a different study tried to replicate this experiment, but utilized persons with a wider (better defined) level of LIS experience, up to and including professional crappie anglers, you’d see a wildly different set of results. With avid users (but not professionals), my guess is LIS users would greatly outdistance non-LIS users, but size difference between the groups would be minimal. With professional crappie anglers, their size difference would be significantly greater, but the numbers caught between the groups likely wouldn’t be.

 

My guess is we’ll see some conflicting outcomes from future studies based on the difference in setup and input variables, then with targeted use by both sides to support their personal biases.

[LrgmouthShad]

@Team9nine, thank you. You type and think better than me

[ElGuapo928]

40 minutes ago, LrgmouthShad said:

@ElGuapo928 what is staying home and studying going to do for us? 😁

Always did me a lot of good, especially on unfamiliar lakes - looking over maps, aerial photos, and whatever information I can find. Even on lakes I’m familiar with I like to find different contour changes on the map and try them out on fun fishing days.
 

Just to clarify, on my home lake, the brush is so thick in the shallows that FFS is fundamentally useless - not much of a personal issue here.
 

[LrgmouthShad]

@ElGuapo928 ah okay I thought we were talking about studying about behavior. Yes lake study can be helpful.