The single best FFS conversation/debate I've heard.....Josh Jones on the Bilge Podcast

[AlabamaSpothunter]

Josh Jones and Milliken were the two that got me really wanting FFS, and really formed my opinion on it.   

 

The bombs that Josh Jones drops in this hour-long interview are absolutely eye opening!   The level of honesty is unlike anything you'll hear on the subject by true subject matter experts.   

 

He says studies have already been done......specifically talks about a particular state agency telling him some really worrying things.   

 

I honestly think every Bass angler, especially those who target trophy fish, and those that target fish deep or in the hot months down here in the South should listen to.   

 

My take away........I still want it just as bad, but this technology is on borrowed time in terms of how we see it's wide open usage.   When folks like Josh Jones say it's unsustainable, it's going to destroy fisheries, and he's already witnessed Crappie lakes entirely wiped out, it's only going to be a bigger and bigger deal.     I like Josh Jones even more now, what an honest no BS guy.  

 

  

 

[gim]

19 minutes ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

When folks like Josh Jones say it's unsustainable, it's going to destroy fisheries, and he's already witnessed Crappie lakes entirely wiped out, it's only going to be a bigger and bigger deal.   

I've been saying this for years in terms of crappie fishing.  Its not really an open water issue either.  The issue up here is the use of live sonar during ice fishing season!  Ice anglers used to have to manually look for schools of crappie (and bluegill sunfish and perch) the old fashioned way.  They would drill holes, fish, watch their flasher, and then move again.  Drill more holes, fish, etc.  Again and again, until they found active fish.  It was time consuming and hard work, especially if the ice was in poor shape and there was a decent amount of snow.  But the hard core ice guys did it, and if they stayed mobile, they caught fish.

 

Nowadays its not like that as much.  Live sonar has changed the way many of them ice fish because they can just drill one or two holes and "look around" amongst a much bigger area to see if there are any schools of panfish around.  Its greatly reduced the amount of time needed to locate fish under the ice.

 

Secondarily, the explosion in popularity of deluxe ice castles has also played a role here in the winter.  People park their rigs in one spot for weeks at a time and just sit in there drinking beer, watching satellite TV, playing cards, etc with lines down.  Its constant pressure.  The only saving grace here is the condition of the ice.  They can't get out there when the ice is in poor condition because they need to pull them out with full size trucks.  Last year was a godsend, the ice was not thick, it was full of slush and snow, so it greatly limited ice fishing pressure.  The only people out there were the die hards.

 

Almost 100 lakes here have had their daily bag limits drastically reduced for crappies and/or sunfish.  Many of them went from 10 crappie and 20 sunfish to 5 each or 10 combined.  There will be more of this coming down the pipe.  Panfish are rarely targeted for catch and release here.  They are primarily sought after to keep, unlike bass.  In general, ice fishing has more participants than the open water season too even though the ice fishing "season" is quite a bit shorter in length.  And people can use 2 lines in the winter, whereas in the open water season they are limited to one here.

[Pat Brown]

Yeah this was my favorite episode of the bilge to date.  Josh Jones is super super cool.  I also really like Chris Zaldain.  I think JJ offers a lot of pragmatism in this rather hot topic.

[Susky River Rat]

I found it interesting. It does confirm some of what the anti FFS guys have been saying. As much as I am anti FFS I do like his idea of half and half. I think being professional angler you should have to be well rounded.  Really any angler for that matter. 
 

At the pleasure fisherman unless the agencies create something nothing will change there. I can’t tell anyone they can’t. I just refuse to use it and it will give me a great excuse of why I suck. 

[Bankc]

I'm against it for tournaments, as I think it's starting to cross the line where the advantage over the fish makes it "unfair".  But I think it's obvious that as long as there is money to be made by allowing FFS in the pro fishing circuits, they will allow it to continue.  Those short-term endorsement dollars are worth way more to them than the long-term consequences the rest of us will have to face.  And as long as the big tournaments allow it, the people who govern the lakes and rivers will allow it because they don't want to miss out on those tournament dollars.  So regardless of what you think should or shouldn't happen, we all know how this story ends up.  People follow the money until the problem either becomes so big that it hurts the money, or people get used to the consequences and accept them as the new normal.  We tend not to do the "right thing" until there's money in it.  

 

So what happens now?  Our great grandkids might grow up watching fishing tournaments where they release a single bass into the lake and whoever catches it wins.  Or maybe the fish adapt and learn to thrive under these new conditions, and just won't bite anything when they hear a sonar ping.  Sonar could become a disadvantage.  Nature is resilient like that.  Or maybe global warming gets them long before FFS does, and this whole argument is moot.  Or maybe a nuclear war wipes out the human race in a single afternoon and the fish evolve to gain superpowers and super intelligence due to radioactive fallout we left behind.   Who knows?  

[Team9nine]

Watched this one a few days ago, shortly after it came out. I thought it was a very good discussion, as I share a similar opinion on a lot of the specific aspects discussed. I do take his comments on state agency studies with a grain of salt because of his past inflammatory remarks in that area. I’ve seen/read  a handful of studies put out by several states on the subject, most all showing no detrimental effects at this point. Further studies will surely be forthcoming, and it will be interesting to follow. It’s a much broader subject than it might appear at first glance, as @gimruis’s comments allude to, and there is room (for studies) to support arguments on both sides of the issue.

[gim]

I pointed this out a couple years ago and was razzed about it here, but I'll mention it again because there is some relevance to the topic.  The PMTT (top pro muskie circuit) banned the use of it this past season in events (they allowed it pre-fishing).  Back in 2022, one specific team mounted 8 units on their boat and just slowly went around scanning for muskies until they found one, then they repeatedly casted to it with a new lure until it bit.  They cleaned house in that event, catching 11 muskies in 2 days.  The second closest team only caught 3.  The PMTT banned live sonar after that event, and they also banned it during every event in 2023.  Muskies stick out like trucks on live sonar because of their size.  Whether they allow it for 2024 is TBD.

 

Muskies are not targeted for harvest, but this is another example of how it CAN be an enormous advantage in some cases.  This is directly from their website on the policy of live sonar.

 

Forward Facing "Live" Sonar

As many of you know, we have been researching the Forward Facing Sonar - Live Sonar and other like technology’s use during PMTT tournaments going forward. We not only requested feedback from the PMTT Trail Team members to give their opinions and views but gathered data and information, from across the fishing industry and beyond. We explored other tournaments, tournament circuits, other species and consulted with people throughout the fishing industry.

 

Everyone at the PMTT is always striving for what’s best for the PMTT, its anglers and the resource, even if the decisions made are not the popular one or the favored opinion and methods. After we compiled all of this information, we then viewed it from several different angles. It was weighed out as to the positives and negatives, its impact either way on the tournaments and playing devil’s advocate with the scenarios, cause and effects with each of these and how they could play out. 

 

While we were equally concerned with what the PMTT anglers wanted, this was also weighed out heavily as to if we are hearing from the vocal minority or the masses with these thoughts and opinions. Through this, we have concluded that going forward, the Forward Facing Sonar - Live Sonar and all other like technology, will not be allowed for use during PMTT tournaments. These will be banned from two hours before the start of the first day of the tournament, until the end of the last day of the tournament. 

 

This decision is for the 2023 PMTT season and not a permanent fixture in the PMTT as it will be re-evaluated throughout each season. 

 

We hope everyone is well and we look forward to seeing everyone on the water!.

 

Sincerely,

 

Tim Widlacki  

Tournament Director

[A-Jay]

Watched this one the other day as well. 

Can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

FFS will get better, become more affordable, recreational anglers will get better with it,

and lots of bank accounts will continue to swell.

It may be too little too late as far as 'regulation' goes. 

Over the recent course of history, seems anything (not just fishing related)

with similar characteristics and effect on the populous,

just goes wild, drives itself and changes the world.

In this case it's bass fishing.

Will it be a good thing ?  

Guess we'll find out, but I'm not confident.

So glad I lived & fished so much of my life before this stuff evolved.

Have to admit, this just makes me sad.

A-Jay

[Big Rick]

Exactly.  I don't currently or never will fish tournaments. I don't depend on the fish I catch to feed my family, whether by harvest or by winnings. So, I don't plan to own FFS. I know there are many arguments on both sides. My only point is this: I love the art of chasing green fish and trying to outwit them. That is the most rewarding aspect of bass fishing to me. When I put the right pieces of the puzzle in the right places and get on a pattern it makes my day. We, by nature, are hunters. And while I understand that FFS is a challenge in and of itself, I don't relish the thought of staring at a screen and pitching different baits at a target until it bites. That cheapens my experience. 

 

YMMV

[AlabamaSpothunter]

You could honestly see the sadness in JJ's face and tone at many points during the interview, pointing out how much he admired the guy on OH Ivie catching a teener with a big swimbait throwing in the blind vs. catching one off the screen.  

 

The saddest part of the whole video was when he said the novelty of catching DD on the scope has gotten old....he now only gets enjoyment seeing his clients catch DDs because of the tech.    180+ DDs, 95% on the scope, and he's tired of catching them that way.   That's a very telling statement to me.   

 

I finally kind of get it, this tech is stealing the magic from Bass fishing.   

[A-Jay]

I can admit to 'getting used to' catching a certain size of bass.

Good or bad it happens.

As for stealing the magic (good term btw), what bums me out is

that whether I choose to use it or not,

FFS will eventually effect MY fishing.

Especially as the numbers of plus size fish begin to dwindle

faster than they can replenish.

I get it though.

The world changes over time.

If we're 'lucky' to life long enough, we see it.

Last week on Lake Menderchuck, I watched 3 guys in a bass rig pull up 50 yds from me.

One guy was staring at the FFS and using his hand to point out casting directions for the other two.

I was fishing an 'edge' in 20 ft.

Their boat was in 80 feet of water.

I sat and ate my lunch while they casted furiously for 30 minutes.

Never did catch a bass but it was very entertaining.

By the end of the day, my antiquated rig helped me get 20 fish over 4lbs on a spinnerbait. 

I think there may still be some time for me up here before Armageddon. 

A-Jay

 

 

 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

Another really interesting thing he said is that even if the older guys wanted to be as effective as the 20-30 year olds coming up on it, they simply couldn't because of physical limitations.  

 

Another thing I didn't think about was how it's affecting lure and line sales for the worse, not that I'm so much concerned with Pure Fishing's bottom line, rather it's having consequences that are far less obvious on the surface.  

 

That was such an eye opening video on a subject I thought I had heard everything I wanted or needed to hear about on it.  

[Dwight Hottle]

There is probably now going to be new categories for record fish caught. Pre FFS & post FFS. We will all have to have new PB categories. Surely a PB caught before the use of FFS will carry more weight than a PB caught with the aid of FFS. It will be like the MLB home run records. The FFS records will have an asterisk next to them like the steroid records.  

[Bird]

84 DD bass in 1 year and less than 90 trips to the lake speaks volumes ?.

 

I doubt I've caught 84 5lb fish in 50 years of fishing.

 

[Seafury]

Personally, being youngish still I love new tech and live sonar is a god send!

 

I am looking forward to when I can afford to add it to my Garmin FF.

 

I can't tell you how many days I've been skunked and wasted hours and days and hundreds of dollars on gas to have a crappy day of no fish and no fun.

Many times I've debated giving up fishing because of it.

 

I am strictly catch and release (Unless I land a record someday) so I don't see a problem.

Just make all freshwater fish except catfish catch and release only, problem solved.

Or at most 1 keeper per species max.

 

None of our freshwater fisheries outside maybe the great lakes can handle a bunch of people harvesting, regardless of tech used or not.

The very idea we even still allow people to take fish home makes me mad when I think about it and all the times I've been skunked due to pressure and plain lack of fish due to depletion by others both lawfully and a metric ton unlawfully.

 

Live sonar is here to stay, and I could not be happier about it, just wish it was affordable for the common working man.

[greentrout]

Private waters, for some, with dues are the way to go. FFS is not fishing. It's harvesting.

[LrgmouthShad]

Well I’m 23 and hopefully I’ll be around to see how this all plays out. Should be pretty interesting. In the meantime as long as I’m catching good fish here and there, it’s all good. I still like being on big public lakes because it’s like a giant puzzle to me. I’ll do without FFS and I look forward to seeing what happens in the future!

[Drew03cmc]

19 hours ago, Seafury said:

Personally, being youngish still I love new tech and live sonar is a god send!

 

I am strictly catch and release (Unless I land a record someday) so I don't see a problem.

Just make all freshwater fish except catfish catch and release only, problem solved.

Or at most 1 keeper per species max.

 

None of our freshwater fisheries outside maybe the great lakes can handle a bunch of people harvesting, regardless of tech used or not.

The very idea we even still allow people to take fish home makes me mad when I think about it and all the times I've been skunked due to pressure and plain lack of fish due to depletion by others both lawfully and a metric ton unlawfully.

 

Reading your answer here says you are young without you saying you're young. 

 

How do you figure all freshwater fish being c&r to solve anything? It'll create more problems. Harvest is necessary or they stunt. 

 

People keeping fish makes you mad? Honestly, the fish aren't there solely for you. The law allows them to be kept, but harvest limits are for sustainability, not trophy fishing. If you struggle to catch fish without FFS, perhaps you should spend more time worrying about how fish behave and their patterns vs worrying about tech and sonar. 

[LrgmouthShad]

We know catch and release has a level of mortality associated with it. Once an angler becomes proficient with FFS, we’ve seen on tournament circuits and otherwise that the angler will catch more fish. 

 

There are a couple different things that I’m interested to see if they manifest.  The world is driven by incentives and if it gets harder to catch fish and larger ones on some bodies of water, marginally, more anglers will be driven away from the body of water. Like a market, demand and supply will balance out and there will be a new equilibrium created after the invent of FFS. 

 

There’s also some cover in lakes that makes FFS difficult to utilize. Will more fish reproduce in areas that are harder for anglers to reach or dissect? 
 

It’ll be really interesting. I’m just along for the ride

[Hogs_n_Logs]

18 hours ago, Seafury said:

Personally, being youngish still I love new tech and live sonar is a god send!

 

I am looking forward to when I can afford to add it to my Garmin FF.

 

I can't tell you how many days I've been skunked and wasted hours and days and hundreds of dollars on gas to have a crappy day of no fish and no fun.

Many times I've debated giving up fishing because of it.

 

I am strictly catch and release (Unless I land a record someday) so I don't see a problem.

Just make all freshwater fish except catfish catch and release only, problem solved.

Or at most 1 keeper per species max.

 

None of our freshwater fisheries outside maybe the great lakes can handle a bunch of people harvesting, regardless of tech used or not.

The very idea we even still allow people to take fish home makes me mad when I think about it and all the times I've been skunked due to pressure and plain lack of fish due to depletion by others both lawfully and a metric ton unlawfully.

 

Live sonar is here to stay, and I could not be happier about it, just wish it was affordable for the common working man.

 

If you are getting frustrated and have considering quitting cause of some slow days on the water,  and then blame your struggles on some perceived epidemic of meat fisherman harvesting tons of bass, and are rejoicing because you think FFS will now magically allow you to catch fish, I think you'll catch less fish than you think even if you get FFS and will be out of the sport shortly. 

 

I'm not trying to be a.....forgot how to use English especially if you're a relatively new fisherman, but I can't really comprehend this kind of mindset when it comes to angling and Bass angling specifically. I should say I dont really mind FFS use in general or in tournys. But the main differentiator with bass fishing is that bass(especially LMB) are such a versatile species that can live in and adapt to nearly any freshwater environment, and thus the methods and strategy to try and catch the most and biggest fish is always a puzzle and can vary wildly, even within one water system. Almost every other sports fish species out there is fairly one dimensional in comparison, they are almost alway going to to be in a certain area of the water depending on the season of the year and only a couple lures are extremely effective and necessary. Primarily using FFS essentially makes Bass fishing that kind of fishing, on the whole were it is overwhelmingly effective is open deeper water and using a few techinques, which is an extremely narrow subset of bass habitat(this is also the reason why I'm not really anti-FFS). Whats gonna happen if you fish on a clear natural lake were anything above the thermocline is thick vegetation? How about a river that has a max depth of 8ft and fish holding near the bank in thick submerged junk? Bass fishing is great to me cause you can catch them 40ft down in open water or in 1ft of water hiding under an old car fender depending on were you are, and either can be the most effective way to catch them. 

 

 

 

 

 

[LrgmouthShad]

Holy cow y’all are toasting this guy 😂

[AlabamaSpothunter]

 

45 minutes ago, LrgmouthShad said:

We know catch and release has a level of mortality associated with it. Once an angler becomes proficient with FFS, we’ve seen on tournament circuits and otherwise that the angler will catch more fish. 

 

There are a couple different things that I’m interested to see if they manifest.  The world is driven by incentives and if it gets harder to catch fish and larger ones on some bodies of water, marginally, more anglers will be driven away from the body of water. Like a market, demand and supply will balance out and there will be a new equilibrium created after the invent of FFS. 

 

There’s also some cover in lakes that makes FFS difficult to utilize. Will more fish reproduce in areas that are harder for anglers to reach or dissect? 
 

It’ll be really interesting. I’m just along for the ride

JJ in the video said there is nowhere safe for Bass anymore after he went to Florida and caught fish in a few feet of water in hydrilla.

 

Seminole and the big O on the Elite Series this year were won using FFS.   Only Elite event I remember not being won with it was the Sabine River.  

[Woody B]

5 hours ago, greentrout said:

Private waters, for some, with dues are the way to go. FFS is not fishing. It's harvesting.

 

Have you ever fished with FFS?

[LrgmouthShad]

Also more states should look at what Texas Parks and Wildlife is doing if they care about bass fishing. Not all states will. Many don’t have the same claim to fame as Texas does, too. I will never take for granted that I live in a state that cares so much about bass fishing. I did reach a decision point in my life of where to go next and I did select Texas so it’s not by chance.

[gim]

1 hour ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

Only Elite event I remember not being won with it was the Sabine River.  

That's because it was a dink fest.

 

"Aint no big bass in the Sabine." - Catt