Flaming Wires Between Graph & Battery (OUCH)

[AJ Hauser]

Good afternoon gentlemen. 

 

So... today was a thing... It rained on my way to the ramp. I fish out of a little jon boat and the batteries for my trolling motor & Garmin depth finder are separate but exposed to the elements. Never had an issue, and they get hooked up before launch. Today, when I hooked the alligator clips up between the small lithium battery and said depth finder, the freaking things started on fire. 

 

Full stop. 

 

I am not joking. 

 

I couldn't believe my eyes - I think there was a spark (it's not uncommon for the alligator clips to touch when I move them around and they might spark briefly) and it was definitely wet in the boat, but the battery was not soaked, the clips and the wires were in the truck on the ride over, but... man, have any of you guys ever had anything even remotely close to this happen to you!??? All of the sudden, freaking flames at two of the clips. 

 

So then I did the most logical thing and just reacted, grabbing both with my bare hands to unclip them. That flippin' hurt.

 

This all happened in the bottom of my boat, hidden from view as I was having a normal discussion with another angler at the launch at the same time. 

 

"Sure is beautiful out here," I said calmly, while simultaneously grabbing flaming alligator clips with my bare hands and trying not to wince as I slapped the fire out. 

 

... I have had one heck of a year. Ticks on my unmentionables. Giant nose infections. And now I have learned another area where I need to get educated and be safer. Please help. My wife & children are starting to worry (more than usual). 

 

You guys ever experience anything like this??

Any suggestions for improving my janky little setup?

 

(I still caught 8 bass before I got rained out, blisters and all... but it was getting nasty... decided to be safe the first sign of thunder and booked it.) 

 

Please and thank you, good sirs. BE SAFE OUT THERE!

 

Pic 1 = my dingy

Pic 2 = blisters

Pic 3 = connection(s)

Pic 4 = melted plastic

Pic 5 = consolation prize

Pic 4 & 5

[TnRiver46]

I’ve never had a lithium battery but I’ve had a tiny boat fire once or twice. Mine was always red wire touching black wire . Judging by the pic of your fingers, you had a little more significant blaze, mine was like a bic lighter sized flame 

[ElGuapo928]

At least the fish were biting and the damage is minimal!

 

Personally I’d lose the alligator clips - having been raised by an OCD-stricken electrician, I don’t like any electrical connection that isn’t solid. 

[Fishingmickey]

     You had a direct short. Note the melted red plastic on the black wire alligator clip.  You need to put in-line fuses (like on the Garmin) on the troller red wire. Easy peasy to find at the auto parts store. I suspect that it was your trolling motor connection and motor or wires were shorted. Wires heat up almost instantly, just like the controlled short in a cigarette lighter.

     The wires for the trolling motor look small and the alligator clips are way too small.  Bigger wire, bigger clips makes for less resistance.  When it happens instantly it's a short. If they get hot to the touch when in use. The wiring is too small. Think of it like a pipe, bigger pipe better the electron flow less loss through resistance (heating).

FM

[WRB]

Lithium batteries don’t do well when wet or moisture, problem in a marine environment or outside in the elements.

EV’s can and do catch fire weeks after the car was flooded.

Tom 

[MickD]

I believe fishingmickie is right on the dead short.  In order get that much heat there would have to be a dead short.  A fuse would not prevent the dead short; it would just go open before enough juice/heat developed to cause a fire.  But a dead short will blow the fuse.  

 

I've used a rig like you have fishing in Canada, but I used clips with plastic covers on them which helps prevent unwanted contact. 

[Fishing_Rod]

Greetings All,

Scary situation! Glad it didn't get too serious. Most electronics have in line fuses to protect from such a situation. Better the fuse blow than everything else burning. Some MFRs incorporate the fuse at the connection point, also as part of the connector too. Like in the case of a 12 VDC utility plug (aka cigarette lighter plug).

 

Please consider using some type of fuse protection for all the devices connected to any power source. As you saw how important it is to have those protections to prevent things from getting crazy in a very short time. Let's be careful out there! Be well and Cheers!

[flyfisher]

could have been worse.  What brand lithium battery just out of curiosity.

4 hours ago, WRB said:

Lithium batteries don’t do well when wet or moisture, problem in a marine environment or outside in the elements.

EV’s can and do catch fire weeks after the car was flooded.

Tom 

I don't think that is true anymore. Some of the older ones when they first came out were much less tolerant to moisture. My lithium batteries are sealed and fine in on my kayak.  I don't even have them in a box.  They are out of hte way of water but everything in a kayak gets water on it at some point and thankfully, no issues.

 

[WRB]

The last major hurricane created flooding and EV’s started catching fire up to weeks after the storm, still a problem.

So what do you think caused a dead short?

Tom

[Catt]

9 hours ago, flyfisher said:

I don't think that is true anymore. Some of the older ones when they first came out were much less tolerant to moisture

 

Absolutely still true ?

 

I experienced one yrs ago that actually caught the carpet on fire. 

[AJ Hauser]

OH CRAP I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING - 

 

4 days ago when I got home, I noticed rust on the terminals and the clips, so I sprayed some WD-40 on both and then wiped it clean. Is it possible that stuff seeped into the copper wire (that is what is in the alligator clips) and then when current was introduced or when the clips touched and sparked, that is what fired up??

 

I can't believe I didn't remember this, I was just cleaning up and saw some rust on another area and went to get the WD-40 and it hit me. 

 

Thoughts?

 

These are the batteries I use, and the graph is a Garmin Striker 9sv. The trolling motor is hooked straight to the larger battery posts: 

Small Mighty Max - Graph

Big Mighty Max - Trolling Motor

Alligator Clips for Graph Only

 

@WRB @Catt @flyfisher @Fishing_Rod @MickD @Fishingmickey @ElGuapo928 @TnRiver46 thank you guys so much for the help so far! I have learned a lot the hard way this year...

[Kirtley Howe]

Possible, but doubtful. The flammable compounds in WD-40 evaporate very quickly. It is a solvent, not a lubricant. Solvents tend to be very flammable when first exposed to air and heat/sparks, but then become pretty inert.  

[ElGuapo928]

5 hours ago, AJ Hauser said:

OH CRAP I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING - 

 

4 days ago when I got home, I noticed rust on the terminals and the clips, so I sprayed some WD-40 on both and then wiped it clean. Is it possible that stuff seeped into the copper wire (that is what is in the alligator clips) and then when current was introduced or when the clips touched and sparked, that is what fired up??

 

I can't believe I didn't remember this, I was just cleaning up and saw some rust on another area and went to get the WD-40 and it hit me. 

 

Thoughts?

 

These are the batteries I use, and the graph is a Garmin Striker 9sv. The trolling motor is hooked straight to the larger battery posts: 

Small Mighty Max - Graph

Big Mighty Max - Trolling Motor

Alligator Clips for Graph Only

 

@WRB @Catt @flyfisher @Fishing_Rod @MickD @Fishingmickey @ElGuapo928 @TnRiver46 thank you guys so much for the help so far! I have learned a lot the hard way this year...

That could very well be the source of the fire…..arc heat generated from the circuit making/breaking as the clips move would be enough to ignite residual petroleum from the WD40.
 

Think arc welding on a smaller scale. 

[guitarplaya39]

Do you have the alligator clips on both ends of the pos and neg wires? Looks like you clip to the battery, then clip to the stripped wires on the depth finder? If so, that's definitely a good way to get a direct short. The flames were probably from the insulation on the wires. 

[flyfisher]

On 9/23/2023 at 6:35 AM, Catt said:

 

Absolutely still true ?

 

I experienced one yrs ago that actually caught the carpet on fire. 

 

On 9/22/2023 at 8:50 PM, WRB said:

The last major hurricane created flooding and EV’s started catching fire up to weeks after the storm, still a problem.

So what do you think caused a dead short?

Tom

well individual experience doesn’t always mean it’s true though. 
 

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/

 

Much like school shootings which are publicized wildly when they happen, the probability is ridiculously low of it occurring but when they do, it’s everywhere. 

[scaleface]

Happenned to me last year.I extended the trolling motor cable and must have did a poor job of it. Rigged the trolling motor and depth finder in the bow  with battery in the stern of a john boat and caught the wires of both units on fire. Burnt my cooler and my jacket to boot. I was at the far end of a 200 acre lake when it happenned. No way I was going to oar all the way back. So I cut off the burned parts, hooked it back up and continued fishing . Now I have new bigger wires.

[Scott F]

If it had been a direct short, the burning would have happened where the short circuit was. My opinion is that the alligator clips were the problem. A poor connection between the wire and the clip and between the clip and the battery connection. Alligator clips are fine for low amp draws like on a meter, but a much more solid connection needs to be made especially at the battery

[WRB]

Why are you using Alligator clips instead of insulated female spade terminals?

You new need to make up proper electrical connections and resolve your problem.

Tom

[FrnkNsteen]

2 hours ago, flyfisher said:

 

well individual experience doesn’t always mean it’s true though. 
 

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/

 

Much like school shootings which are publicized wildly when they happen, the probability is ridiculously low of it occurring but when they do, it’s everywhere. 

Ummm,.. Not into conspiracy theories,... But what do you expect someone from the auto industry to say while they are pushing EVs?

 

I agree with Tom in that you need better connections to your battery. Get some female spade connectors and connect them to the wires of your device so you can make a good solid connection.

[Catt]

2 hours ago, flyfisher said:

well individual experience doesn’t always mean it’s true though

 

Everytime it floods cars catch on fire but that doesn't mean anything?

[raggydoo]

On 9/23/2023 at 9:01 AM, AJ Hauser said:

OH CRAP I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING - 

 

4 days ago when I got home, I noticed rust on the terminals and the clips, so I sprayed some WD-40 on both and then wiped it clean. Is it possible that stuff seeped into the copper wire (that is what is in the alligator clips) and then when current was introduced or when the clips touched and sparked, that is what fired up??

 

I can't believe I didn't remember this, I was just cleaning up and saw some rust on another area and went to get the WD-40 and it hit me. 

 

Thoughts?

 

These are the batteries I use, and the graph is a Garmin Striker 9sv. The trolling motor is hooked straight to the larger battery posts: 

Small Mighty Max - Graph

Big Mighty Max - Trolling Motor

Alligator Clips for Graph Only

 

@WRB @Catt @flyfisher @Fishing_Rod @MickD @Fishingmickey @ElGuapo928 @TnRiver46 thank you guys so much for the help so far! I have learned a lot the hard way this year...

  Just for some clarification, the battery linked to for the Garmin isn’t a lithium battery. 
  For some of the more knowledgeable here, if it was a lithium battery with BMS protection wouldn’t a dead short put the battery to sleep?

[AJ Hauser]

@WRB that is exactly what my father said to me. 

 

@guitarplaya39 yes, this is the janky connection I had... asking for trouble, apparently. Yikes. 

 

@scaleface way to get 'er done!!

 

Thank you guys for all of the feedback. I need to find those insulated female spade terminals, but this morning I did snip off the clips on one side of the wires and connected the exposed wires from the graph power cord - electrical taped 'em, shrink tubed 'em, electrical taped 'em again. So they are completely covered at this point. 

 

Thank you guys for all of the feedback. Really, really appreciate it! 

[scaleface]

1 hour ago, AJ Hauser said:

I need to find those insulated female spade terminals, but this morning I did snip off the clips on one side of the wires and connected the exposed wires from the graph power cord - electrical taped 'em, shrink tubed 'em, electrical taped 'em again. So they are completely covered at this point. 

I couldnt find terminals small enough to fit the wires and large enough to go over the post. So I did this. No problems.

[king fisher]

     This reminds me of a time 20 some years ago in Alaska, when I had a battery catch on fire.

Two college age first year guides, and myself were sent to a stream with a portage around a water fall, to  get a commercial clothes dryer that was to big to fly out to the lodge.   The dryer had made the first part of the journey in an 18 foot John boat, and was waiting at the bottom of the falls.  The plan was to drag the dryer with a 12 volt electric winch rolled on logs left from previous portages around the falls, where we would then load it in to a waiting boat, while the other guides and I would continue on in the airplane to another river for another project.

     The pilot of the plane going to the falls, and I were busy doing something else when the plane was loaded.  When we landed at the falls, I went to tie the plane up to a tree, while the pilot and guides started unloading the plane.  I had just finished tying the plane, when I heard one of the young guides, yell out that there was a fire.  He was just standing there looking down in one of the float hatches pointing at a deep cycle battery that was on fire.  The two guides loading the plane had placed the battery in the float and placed some of the cable with for the winch near the battery.  When landing the cable had moved, and was connecting the two terminals.

     I jumped on the float, grabbed the handle on the battery, which luckily hadn't burned all the way through yet, and threw the battery in to the river.   The guide just looked at me and said, Dude, you just totally polluted the river.  The pilot quickly asked the guide how much pollution in the river he thought a burned down Dehavillan Beaver would cause?  I thought he was going to shove the guide in to the water and tell him to get the battery, but in the end we had a good laugh and continued with our day.  Luckily the ten gallons of gasoline in jerry jugs, ended up being in the float on the other side of the plane.  We weren't sure at the time where the gas was or I might have tried putting the fire out with the fire extinguisher in the plane, while the battery was still in the float.  As it was I didn't want to take the time to get the extinguisher out of the inside of the plane.

     After that all batteries had to placed in a container with a lid, that prevented that type of accident from ever happening again.  If someone got lazy and tried to put a battery in to a float without the proper container, I would tell them the story, and they would never try that again.

      The young guide that objected to me polluting the river with the battery, was not the brightest kid I ever worked with, but he was a natural fisherman, that ended up becoming a good guide. 

     All is well that ends well.  

 

[guitarplaya39]

Solid wire connections are crucial for safety and performance. 

Simply put, while twisted and taped stranded wire will work, it puts a lot of resistance in the circuit. As time goes on the wires will corrode, which then further increases the resistance. This resistance is converted into heat and will eventually burn whatever is around it. Same concept as using wire that is too small for the application. In that case the entire length of wire is the resistor and will get hot. 

This isn't as critical for lower-draw electronics like the fish finder, but it is very important for the trolling motor which draws a lot of current. You'd probably want a minimum 10-12 gauge wire for a 35-40lb trolling motor. Splices/connections should be properly soldered or crimped and insulated/sealed. 

Also, a fuse or breaker should be installed close to the battery and another one at the device. This way if a short happens somewhere between the battery and the device, your terminal connections won't catch on fire again