The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly Stik: A score and basic review of rods up to $250.

[Catt]

No mention of Kistler ?

[Spankey]

13 hours ago, Alex Ball said:

      For a long time, that was my A1 rod. I've moved up a bit, but the Winch still gets some action. I have a Denali I use more now, but I love 15 minutes from the home store so if it fails, I just go get another one. 

     The action on those is almost perfectly to spec. 35 percent load. That's moderate. Abu went with the standard. Set it actually. With a $100 rod. 

       I won't post too often. It takes so much time to test properly. I'll say this: Almost none of the rods I prefer will score top 3 in category. What you said there "to each his own" is accurate to my situation. My Denali Attax Glass Cranking rod was 5/9 on my test list for it's category. Its by far my favorite one in the group. To each his own. Yessir. 

Alex I’m not sure of your age. I’m sure I’m older than you but hope I’m not ancient. When I was a lot younger and started to fish with better quality rods I became a St. Croix fan boy. No regrets on that. I feel it helped turned the page to my fishing (I’m no expert, just saying my results go better in part to fishing St. Croix rods). 
I’m a river rat since a kid. My heart is there. Smallies are always swimming around in my head all the time. I fish the lake quite a bit these days. Mother Nature beat the river up the last handful of years. But it’s rebounding. 
Anyway, my favorite crankbait rods are the first two that I bought. St. Croix Premiere Series Crankbait Rods. Med. Lite and Medium power with soft tips. Best cb rod I’ve felt and cb fished with (my opinion only). 
St. Croix has long stopped making them. Not sure why. Maybe the never caught on. They were not a bank breaker. Have them paired with older Curados. Never go to the river without them. Wish I had 10 cents for every smallie I caught with them. 

[WRB]

Been fishing a very long time since the the 50’s over 65 years. Fishing rods have evolved continuously over the decades. The goal of balancing light weight well balanced and reliable rod blanks with high quality workmanship offering good customer service and warranty separates the good from the bad and ugly.

Fuji reel handles and guides was a game changer followed by reliable graphite rod blanks thanks to Gary Loomis another game changer. Before Gary’s graphite blanks tubular glass was the go to rod blank material for decades.

I have broken 3 rods in my lifetime of fishing. The 1st was a Truline 30-60 line class glass rod on a big tune, the exploded between the handle and 1st guide. Just bottomed out and failed. The 2nd was a signature Ray Scott Boron bass rod that shattered on a decent size bass. The material was too brittle.

The 3rd was a Fenwick early HMG graphite rod before Gary Loomis figured out how to make reliable graphite blanks.

I changed to Lamiglas custom rods during Gary’s tenure for about 35 years without any issues until they stopped offering custom builds. Caught hundreds of big bass using Lamiglas rods, light weight, perfectly balanced for me and great customer service.

ALX made the last custom bass rods using Lamiglas blanks in 2012, MHF & MH+F that weigh 3.8 oz with a short fore grip to my specs. ALX now offers OTC rods and has excellent workmanship and customer service. 

A local rod builder not mentioned is IROD, Matt’s Rods and customer is are very good at a affordable price range.

ALX, IROD and Lamiglas are not mentioned in this thread....

Tom

 

[Darth-Baiter]

Rods are way to subjective.  its like picking your favorite shade of blue.  

[Pogues2300]

3 minutes ago, Darth-Baiter said:

Rods are way to subjective.  its like picking your favorite shade of blue.  

I agree. I had an xbites, and own a nrx 873 crr. I always seemed to grab the 873 so eventually I gave my buddy a great deal on the xbites. Both such amazing rods and I’m sure many probably like the xbites better. It was just a feel for me on the 873. And when you compare quality rods it really is very subjective. 

[Darth-Baiter]

yup.  i have a few Phenix rods that are amazingly better than the price point, in my opinion.  

 

on the flipside, people GUSH over anything that rhymes with "ROBYNS", but you know, i think they fish lower than the price point on some of the higher end models...in my limited and very humble opinion, not designed or spoken of to step on any toes of whomever that reads this will consider...:D

 

its just a thought. 

[GReb]

Lot of great rods companies. 
 

Falcon and ALX have become my favorites for the $$$. Although my absolute favorite is a Kistler squarebill rod built on one of the NFC blanks. I’ve sold several other Kistler though and haven’t tried one of their new blanks. There are so many I haven’t tried yet such as Irod or Phoenix. Sold most all my Dobyns, St Croix, and Shimano.
 

You’d go broke trying them all these days. The $12 rod tube priority shipping days are over and now it’s $32 leaving little meat on the bone. 

[Scott804]

18 hours ago, Alex Ball said:

 

It's funny those 2 series are about the same number in price. I liked the Sierra. Came really close to being my cranking rod. 682 model. I didn't like the Kaden for the price. 30 less yes. 

     I really like the consistency of Dobyns. There's value at every level. However, as it's been pointed out, every angler is unique. What I think is great won't be the same for everyone. 

   Have you tried comparable St. Croix rods? I've got several friends who prefer them to Dobyns. The Mojo Bass is a very good series IMO. 

I have, the mojo bass rods never struck me as anything special. But I didn't have anything bad to say about them either, handle just wasn't my style but the blank performed well. I have been meaning to get around to trying a St Croix Victory to see if I like that better. The Legend Glass series is probably one of my favorite line ups of all time, so I know St Croix has the potential, just haven't gotten around to exploring them. I have been on a big dobyn's kick (mainly because I have a guy offloading them to me at insane prices en masse) but I have really ended up liking them even though I did not expect it. It is nice how fleshed out the line up is and how easy it is to find the right rod for what you want. Sierra & Kadens are kinda meant to be yin & yang to my understanding, if you prefer softer tip then sierra and if you prefer faster kaden. 

[Scott804]

45 minutes ago, Darth-Baiter said:

yup.  i have a few Phenix rods that are amazingly better than the price point, in my opinion.  

 

on the flipside, people GUSH over anything that rhymes with "ROBYNS", but you know, i think they fish lower than the price point on some of the higher end models...in my limited and very humble opinion, not designed or spoken of to step on any toes of whomever that reads this will consider...:D

 

its just a thought. 

I won a XTASY 754 in a raffle and that was honestly what pulled me back around to Dobyn's. It really impressed me, Gary knows how to make some darn good sticks, but they are certainly all business. No pretty rod handles or aggressive design choices. However, majority of my lineup at that time was megabass, and I kind of feel like they've done the same thing in different ways. Dobyn's rod number nomenclature makes it very easy to talk about models in the same way that Megabass naming rods cool names does. Lots of people are hardcore for both and it makes sense. XTASY definitely does not keep up with an NRX+ by any means sensitivity wise, but what does? 

 

Still... I agree with what you said. I don't think an XTASY is on par with a Destroyer rod vs rod... but that is OK with me considering Dobyn's warranty vs Megabass's warranty. 

[Alex Ball]

17 hours ago, Scott804 said:

I have, the mojo bass rods never struck me as anything special. But I didn't have anything bad to say about them either, handle just wasn't my style but the blank performed well. I have been meaning to get around to trying a St Croix Victory to see if I like that better. The Legend Glass series is probably one of my favorite line ups of all time, so I know St Croix has the potential, just haven't gotten around to exploring them. I have been on a big dobyn's kick (mainly because I have a guy offloading them to me at insane prices en masse) but I have really ended up liking them even though I did not expect it. It is nice how fleshed out the line up is and how easy it is to find the right rod for what you want. Sierra & Kadens are kinda meant to be yin & yang to my understanding, if you prefer softer tip then sierra and if you prefer faster kaden. 

Right. The Kaden was stiff. That was my primary issue. Too stiff. 

[1984isNOW]

@Alex Ball what is your scoring system for rods and reels?

 

And how did you measure that 35% flex in that rod?

[Alex Ball]

2 hours ago, Kites R4 Skyfishing said:

@Alex Ball what is your scoring system for rods and reels?

 

And how did you measure that 35% flex in that rod?

   My scoring system. 

   Rods 

3pts max for weight, sensitivity, components, and accuracy of specs. 

1pt option on fit and finish, feel, and balance. 

   Reels

  5pts max for smoothness, stated vs actual drag, components, and weight/feel.

     Each point can be decimalized, so it gets pretty deep. Not a perfect system, but it works for me and I've yet to have anyone come back unhappy. 

    On the Winch. 

   I'm actually talking about load. The amount of back bend at the terminal point of your wind up before you come forward. 

    I get that number 2 ways. 

1. I tie on a lure in the middle of the weight range. I set up a shutter speed camera aimed a little behind me. I look at where the rod stops loading. I use NP marker to mark every cm of the rod. I count the cm and do the math. 

2.  I bend it back with some line through the top til it reaches a max bend. I use both sets to create an average. I do each phase 10x. 

     There is an industry standard on action, but nobody follows it. My fantasy in life is to change that. They're looking at it the wrong way imo. Action is about how much it bends forward. Load isn't usually considered. Also, they don't explain the parabolic percent. How much of that tip bends over and how far? 

     That's what I'm trying to figure out. How to create a set of numbers that accurately reflect how a rod "moves".

[Alex Ball]

On 8/2/2023 at 5:50 AM, Catt said:

No mention of Kistler ?

Can't really talk about a company I haven't used. I've never gotten to touch one in person, so I hesitate on a purchase. I've not ever heard anything bad. That's unusual. 

[1984isNOW]

@Alex Ball thanks for sharing man. How do you measure sensitivity?

 

When you say accuracy of specs, as compared to what standard? You mention an industry standard, what is that because I've only ever seen absolute chaos, even within brand and rod line.

 

You're first measurement of load is very interesting, could you share screenshots?

 

Action, technically, is supposed to represent how quickly a rod will snap back to straight, and not anything to do with the bend (the confusion is the absolute correlation between the two).

 

I don't often share my fantasies with people, but I share that one with you. Accuracy and consistency across brands... impossible. Intentional. Consistency leads to informed consumers and less sales when anglers are "searching for the perfect _______ rod."

 

Have you looked into building your own rods?

 

Ever heard of the Common Cents System?

 

Kistler makes a killer rod, I had to learn not to set my hook into every blade of grass I felt. 7ft Hmh xf, yup that's a heavy medium heavy not their light medium heavy, they've already made a greater attempt at accuracy than any other brands since everybody's MH might be 1/4-3/4 or even 3/8-1...

[Alex Ball]

    Correct on Action. Sorry about that. I should've specifically stated flex. That's more of an accurate term. Action is supposed to refer to restoration time. Yup. Very few people seem to test that. 

     A true moderate action rod, depending on power and radius, should basically wobble like a car lot noodle man. It should also bend over in a u shape. That should occur around halfway of the total bend. 

   The tip should be fairly long and Charmin soft. 

    As for standard, you kind of touch on it at the end. There is a "standard" for "action" (flex). I'll use the general one as the specific to power one is a book. 

     XFast - 15-20 percent flex

     Fast - 20-25 usually but 30 is the max

     MFast - 30-35 but some go 25 low and 40 high

      Mod- 35-50

      Slow - The Zebco Rhino Tough fits. LoL. 

     I'll see if I can get those pics loaded from that camera. Its pretty old. I bought it specifically for this. The pullback is probably more accurate. I use cm and not inches because of the math accuracy. Much tighter parameter. 

    Our mutual fantasy: Agreed it's intentionally convoluted, but I do believe it can be changed. Just takes the right mad scientists. Plenty of em on this site. 

    I am currently looking at building a couple very soon. Got a mutual friend who does it as a hobby. He's willing to apprentice me. I'm excited. I'm a science nerd and a guitar player. An enlightened artist so to speak. Rod building is both art and science. A convergence. 

    Gonna look the Common Cents system up. 

    I want a Kistler bad. Never found one in a shop. I gotta touch it before I buy it. Its my one rule. Not the same for reels. 

    I feel like Kistler and Daiwa both are trying to set a real standard on lure rating. To a degree, Falcon does this. They have a Heavy, 3/8 to 3/4 pitching rod. A MH 1/8 to 3/8 Swim Jig Rod, etc... 

     I'm so glad so many people are talking to me on this. Its really interesting to see how much who you are determines what you want. Its absolutely all a matter of opinion. That's my biggest takeaway so far. 

On 8/2/2023 at 2:47 PM, Darth-Baiter said:

Rods are way to subjective.  its like picking your favorite shade of blue.  

        Truth. 

    I did kind of a blind test yesterday. Fished for 4 hours with two very similar rods. A JB3 Outlaw and a similarly priced Denali Lithium. I turned my brain off and just fished. Without thinking about it, I kept grabbing the JB3. Just felt so good. Not as outstanding in certain areas, but definitely more suited to me. 

    You nailed it. This is Quixotic. You're tilting at windmills looking for definitive answers. 

[Alex Ball]

On 8/2/2023 at 11:58 AM, WRB said:

Been fishing a very long time since the the 50’s over 65 years. Fishing rods have evolved continuously over the decades. The goal of balancing light weight well balanced and reliable rod blanks with high quality workmanship offering good customer service and warranty separates the good from the bad and ugly.

Fuji reel handles and guides was a game changer followed by reliable graphite rod blanks thanks to Gary Loomis another game changer. Before Gary’s graphite blanks tubular glass was the go to rod blank material for decades.

I have broken 3 rods in my lifetime of fishing. The 1st was a Truline 30-60 line class glass rod on a big tune, the exploded between the handle and 1st guide. Just bottomed out and failed. The 2nd was a signature Ray Scott Boron bass rod that shattered on a decent size bass. The material was too brittle.

The 3rd was a Fenwick early HMG graphite rod before Gary Loomis figured out how to make reliable graphite blanks.

I changed to Lamiglas custom rods during Gary’s tenure for about 35 years without any issues until they stopped offering custom builds. Caught hundreds of big bass using Lamiglas rods, light weight, perfectly balanced for me and great customer service.

ALX made the last custom bass rods using Lamiglas blanks in 2012, MHF & MH+F that weigh 3.8 oz with a short fore grip to my specs. ALX now offers OTC rods and has excellent workmanship and customer service. 

A local rod builder not mentioned is IROD, Matt’s Rods and customer is are very good at a affordable price range.

ALX, IROD and Lamiglas are not mentioned in this thread....

Tom

 

     Had a bad experience with a new Lamiglas. I'd gladly try an older one if I can find one. I've heard the stories. I do want to try one. 

    ALX and IRod aren't here because I can't find a store near me that sells em. I won't buy before I touch it. My one rule. 

    I've heard nothing but positive things about ALX. I may eventually take a leap of faith. It would be the first time ever. 

   I'm not real familiar with IRod so I'm not willing to offer any opinions. I did look them up after I saw you post. They certainly fit the bill of my parameters for testing. Hmmm.... Looks very interesting indeed. Thanks for mentioning them. 

[Alex Ball]

On 8/2/2023 at 3:10 PM, Darth-Baiter said:

 people GUSH over anything that rhymes with "ROBYNS", but you know, i think they fish lower than the price point on some of the higher end models

      Funny you say that. 

  Dobyns was the first company I got "steered" towards on BR. I asked about a good AP rod. Everyone said Dobyns. I asked about a good cranker. Same thing. 

   Got a sierra 682 for the cranks. Got a DC 734 sh for the AP. I wasn't as impressed with the Champion as I wanted to be. It let me down a bit. Good rod, but not at $270. The Sierra is great. 170 for it. It feels better imo for 100 less. That bothered me some. 

    Across the board, Dobyns has something for anybody, that's why I list em. I definitely agree you gotta kind of know where to look. 

[Alex Ball]

   Something else:

     I feel like the thing that is most important in the function of a rod is the amount of parabolic bend the tip gives you. 

    I'm cranking on a HXF JB3 right now because that tip bends over like a moderate. The overall flex stops at 20 percent just like it should. 

    It made me think. How about this rating?

    JB3 Outlaw 73 HXF

    Action- XFast

    Power- H

    Tip Flex- Soft 

   I feel like that's a better way to describe a rod. Just a thought. 

    

    

[GreenPig]

My bud calls my 5'6" Cherrywood my Fat Fish Magic Wand. He said when I pull it out, he's got to keep an eye on me. I'd really be dangerous with one of those fancy Lightning rods.

[1984isNOW]

5 minutes ago, GreenPig said:

My bud calls my 5'6" Cherrywood my Fat Fish Magic Wand. He said when I pull it out, he's got to keep an eye on me. I'd really be dangerous with one of those fancy Lightning rods.

This makes me question my existence... I'm be back for the rest

[Alex Ball]

3 hours ago, Kites R4 Skyfishing said:

@Alex Ball thanks for sharing man. How do you measure sensitivity?

 

When you say accuracy of specs, as compared to what standard? You mention an industry standard, what is that because I've only ever seen absolute chaos, even within brand and rod line.

 

You're first measurement of load is very interesting, could you share screenshots?

 

Action, technically, is supposed to represent how quickly a rod will snap back to straight, and not anything to do with the bend (the confusion is the absolute correlation between the two).

 

I don't often share my fantasies with people, but I share that one with you. Accuracy and consistency across brands... impossible. Intentional. Consistency leads to informed consumers and less sales when anglers are "searching for the perfect _______ rod."

 

Have you looked into building your own rods?

 

Ever heard of the Common Cents System?

 

Kistler makes a killer rod, I had to learn not to set my hook into every blade of grass I felt. 7ft Hmh xf, yup that's a heavy medium heavy not their light medium heavy, they've already made a greater attempt at accuracy than any other brands since everybody's MH might be 1/4-3/4 or even 3/8-1...

Meant to tag you on the first one. Forgot to reply to the first question. 

   It took forever to figure out a reliable way to measure sensitivity across the board. Kinda found it on accident. 

   I was fishing a 13 Omen rod at my "house" my spot. Nobody goes there, it's mine. I know it backwards. I threw at a submerged bush and I felt something odd. That bush has a weird branch that has kind of a hump that is different in composition. I hit two branches. I knew which one was the hump because of the feeling. That was new. 

    Threw at rock bottom and felt the changes clearly. Eureka! Picked up a Cherrywood and repeated the process. Felt two bumps again, but no difference in either. Felt the same scrape all the way back on the rock but not the transitions. Got it. 

    Then I cranked. That's vibration. Really good way to test relay of sensitivity. On a 13 Defy Cranker, if you sped up it was profound. Otherwise, not so much. The Lew's Custom Pro Speed Stick Shined. Felt everything until it got anything on it, then nothing but pull. On the Wood, it did pretty well there. Pretty good for movers. 

    Its definitely the most subjective score. I had to find rods to use as a baseline.  I ran a White Bird at it and didn't feel anything outside hard contact. The Lew's KVD wasn't much better than the Cherrywood IMO. My Daiwa and Denalis are super sensitive. Virtus might be too sensitive LoL. My Rhino Tough is the deadest stick ever, but it's a horse. 

Crank

    Dead- Rhino Tough

    Top level - Lew's Custom Pro 

Bottom

     Dead- Favorite White Bird

     Tops- Daiwa Tatula SVF

   These are my baseline rods. I've had things test lower than the bottom and higher than the top. I use these to set a standard. If it beats the top, I get specific. I have 3 rods I test against there.

      Virtus Red Diamond

      Lew's custom pro

      JB3 Outlaw but it was the Daiwa( that write up is gonna be nuts, it's fantastic for it's purpose of Heavy Cover.).  

      Those are the 3 rods I test against because each is a standard. I use them to create a fine tuned score on a big scorer. Its definitely subjective. I can give you the science (I have) but it really comes down to what I feel it performed like vs known quantities for me. My favorites. If it beats em, it's special in my opinion. Again, subjective.

      

  

   

    

48 minutes ago, GreenPig said:

My bud calls my 5'6" Cherrywood my Fat Fish Magic Wand. He said when I pull it out, he's got to keep an eye on me. I'd really be dangerous with one of those fancy Lightning rods.

   Yessir. Fatty Stick. The Wood. LoL. You'd probably catch an actual dinosaur with a Lightning Rod. You sir, are a hammer. 

[Alex Ball]

4 hours ago, Kites R4 Skyfishing said:

@Alex Ball 

 

When you say accuracy of specs, as compared to what standard?

  By accuracy vs stated specs I mean how accurate are the specs on the rod for action, lure weight, etc. 

   A couple examples. 

   The Cherrywood mf 7' says 1/8-3/4. Yet, under 5/16 it doesn't do very well. It shorted everything under that number. My Fenwick Eagle, with the same specs, didn't have any issues with the small baits. 

    I have a Denali Attax Glass Cranking rod that absolutely will throw 1/2 -2 oz baits. No more no less. Accuracy vs stated accuracy. 

   The Standard for casters

 ML 1/8-1/2 usually

 M 1/4-5/8 usually 

 MH 1/4-3/4 usually

 H 3/8-1 or 1.5 depending on the model if it's bait specific

    That's just based on the average. 

  On spinners, good luck. It varies wildly. 

[Catt]

12 hours ago, Alex Ball said:

I've not ever heard anything bad. That's unusual. 

 

Best rods on the market bar none!

[Chris Catignani]

On 7/31/2023 at 6:10 AM, Tennessee Boy said:

How are you breaking so many rods?  I’ve been fishing almost 60 years and never broken a rod while fishing.  I guess I’m not trying hard enough.?

I broke two rods at once! Dropped a 2x4 from a rafter in the garage...right into the boat.

[Tennessee Boy]

43 minutes ago, Chris Catignani said:

I broke two rods at once! Dropped a 2x4 from a rafter in the garage...right into the boat.

Oh I’ve broken rods before.  Just not fishing.   Car doors,  boat cleats,  etc.