fished with my new Zillion yesterday. some thoughts

[Darth-Baiter]

2 hours ago, Woody B said:

I've got a small tear in my right labrum.  Effortless casting is a BIG deal for me.  I don't "watch" fishing but I've noticed the pros aren't "swinging for the fences" when they cast.   

True. 
 

‘’but two things:

 

1. I don’t cast far either, for the most part - but it’s nice to know I can if needed. 
2.  Lately, I find if a fish sees me, it will not bite. Ever.  It takes a longer (blind) cast to trick them. Not sure why things have changed here. 

[GReb]

I own 2 of the zillions and here is what I love most about them. I can tie on any bait and not adjust anything. From a senko to a swim jig to a 3/4oz spinnerbait. And on top of that I can burn down a bank with a swim jig bomb casting, skipping, and pitching without turning any knobs. It does not cast as far as other reels but the control and fishability is better than any reel I’ve owned. 

[PhishLI]

^^^Mic drop.

[1984isNOW]

 Thanks for the input yall  

 

So now for my first impressions, at one point I literally said out loud "WOW" 

 

I was casting a 3/8oz buzzbait on 12# big game, testing the waters with the breaks and checking that distance everyone was talking about. I was already impressed thinking more distance might actuality be a negative for hook sets. I dialed it up one click and it actuality casted farther, probably because it handled the line that much more consistently.  

 

Flew with ease. @PhishLI I left the spool tension rather loose how it was, why do you say breaks and spool play shouldn't interface?

 

ths for the drag I hooked a fish and loosed the drag... then loosed it more... rod stayed loaded and no line taken. Playing around the fish jumped and spit the hook but that was the cost of business, the price for learning the reel. Then I checked the drag by hand and it pulled off easy. 

 

  I wonder if loosening the drag while there's tension doesn't take affect because the drag is already doin its thing or something. By hand I can easily feel variation in resistance, not just on and off. But adjusting with a fish loading the rod does feel like that, but that was one fish. 

 

  Idk if it kept casting to the right or if it was just my buzzbait, it kept reeling to the side quite a bit. 

 

Smooth as butter operation, and so quiet night fishing was hard to time the thumb on landing.  

 

It was dark and I only got a couple fish, first one I didn't fudge with the drag, and third one was hooked close to the eye so he didn't put up much fight.  

 

I'm hoping to put some more time on it today or tomorrow, will be back with another update.

 

@GReb with your 2 Zillions that need no adjusting, how is the spool tension set on those?

[GReb]

2 hours ago, Kites R4 Skyfishing said:

 

@GReb with your 2 Zillions that need no adjusting, how is the spool tension set on those?

Factory setting. Brake on 4 or 5…can’t recall

[Darth-Baiter]

okay.  i glued the rod/reel into my hand today for the most part.  i did wander a bit.

 

but the Zillion is breaking in or something.  i am getting some impressive yardages.  very accurately i might add.    the bass didnt love it as much as i did.

 

 

[1984isNOW]

@GReb how was it set from the factory for you, I think @Darth-Baiter made it sound like his was tighter than mine. Mine very clearly clicks when I rock it back and forth hbu?

Thanks for the update @Darth-BaiterI'm excited to break mine  too

[casts_by_fly]

2 hours ago, Kites R4 Skyfishing said:

@GReb how was it set from the factory for you, I think @Darth-Baiter made it sound like his was tighter than mine. Mine very clearly clicks when I rock it back and forth hbu?

Thanks for the update @Darth-BaiterI'm excited to break mine  too

take out some of that play.  Tighten it until the spool just barely moves (with the thumb-bar down) and give it tiny bit more. Then you can play from there. I go a little looser for general applications and a little tighter for heavy lures so I don’t need as much thumb. 

[PhishLI]

18 hours ago, Kites R4 Skyfishing said:

Flew with ease. @PhishLI I left the spool tension rather loose how it was, why do you say breaks and spool play shouldn't interface?

I didn't say that. I'll try to explain it differently.

 

There's no rational reason to have any slop whatsoever in a mechanism where a spool mounted inductor interacts with a magnetic field, and especially one that's been calibrated to travel out laterally in response to spool speed like most Daiwas do. Zero slop does not automatically mean tension is applied to the spool's shaft. When adjusted to a "neutral" position a lure will still hit the floor like a rock just the same as if it were adjusted loosely. In the case of Daiwa's "Zero Adjuster", some people are under the impression that it's set to some sort of laboratory standard at the factory. It's not. It's set by low wage line workers and is all over the place when you check a number of brand-new reels just out of the box. When it's set for no tension but no side to side play it's set correctly. When it clicks it's not.

 

This is even more meaningful with centrifugal brakes on types like Shimano's SVS where the friction surface is cone shaped. Many reels have an external fine adjustment dial which moves this conical friction surface laterally towards braking blocks mounted to the spool. Why it's desirable to introduce axial slop into the equation of a system like this is mystifying to anyone with a mechanical engineering background and should be for anyone with some degree of mechanical aptitude.

 

This misconception of keeping a reel loose somehow equates to expertise, but it's not true. It's like a brag or something: "I'm so good because I can run my reels loose or turn my brakes off completely". A seemingly nice guy, but Matt Allen from Tactical Bassin has repeated this mistaken idea so many times that I've lost count, and it's bled out into the ether. It's just more untrue fishing mythology just like the fantasy that fluorocarbon doesn't stretch.

 

Anyone who has experienced a mystery blowup where everything was going just fine until it wasn't can probably trace at least a proportion of those random incidents back to a spool which was adjusted loosely, guaranteed. It makes sense if you think about it.

 

 

[MiceNReets]

1 hour ago, PhishLI said:

I didn't say that. I'll try to explain it differently.

 

There's no rational reason to have any slop whatsoever in a mechanism where a spool mounted inductor interacts with a magnetic field, and especially one that's been calibrated to travel out laterally in response to spool speed like most Daiwas do. Zero slop does not automatically mean tension is applied to the spool's shaft. When adjusted to a "neutral" position a lure will still hit the floor like a rock just the same as if it were adjusted loosely. In the case of Daiwa's "Zero Adjuster", some people are under the impression that it's set to some sort of laboratory standard at the factory. It's not. It's set by low wage line workers and is all over the place when you check a number of brand-new reels just out of the box. When it's set for no tension but no side to side play it's set correctly. When it clicks it's not.

 

This is even more meaningful with centrifugal brakes on types like Shimano's SVS where the friction surface is cone shaped. Many reels have an external fine adjustment dial which moves this conical friction surface laterally towards braking blocks mounted to the spool. Why it's desirable to introduce axial slop into the equation of a system like this is mystifying to anyone with a mechanical engineering background and should be for anyone with some degree of mechanical aptitude.

 

This misconception of keeping a reel loose somehow equates to expertise, but it's not true. It's like a brag or something: "I'm so good because I can run my reels loose or turn my brakes off completely". A seemingly nice guy, but Matt Allen from Tactical Bassin has repeated this mistaken idea so many times that I've lost count, and it's bled out into the ether. It's just more untrue fishing mythology just like the fantasy that fluorocarbon doesn't stretch.

 

Anyone who has experienced a mystery blowup where everything was going just fine until it wasn't can probably trace at least a proportion of those random incidents back to a spool which was adjusted loosely, guaranteed. It makes sense if you think about it.

 

 

 

[Cbump]

Curious why I have been told more times than I can count, including on here, other forums, and in articles, to set up Daiwas with a small amount of side to side play, which has worked for me for all my reels. But somehow it’s a myth now because you say so? Who is right? 
Probably both sides since the reels work for everyone. 

[PhishLI]

3 hours ago, Cbump said:

Curious why I have been told more times than I can count, including on here, other forums, and in articles, to set up Daiwas with a small amount of side to side play, which has worked for me for all my reels.

Like I mentioned earlier, probably for the same reason you've heard over and over again that fluorocarbon doesn't stretch or has low stretch. Uninformed assumptions by end users and uninformed marketers, etc. This isn't exclusive to fishing. Reference what I said earlier. I can go on and on with examples.

3 hours ago, Cbump said:

But somehow it’s a myth now because you say so? Who is right? 
Probably both sides since the reels work for everyone. 

I'm right, and so is @WRB and so is @bulldog1935. Practical engineering experience has value and says so. This isn't a both sides issue as if this is an opinion based on preference. One opinion is correct and the other isn't. Just because some slop, and that's what it is, isn't fatally incorrect, that doesn't make it correct. If you're able to visualize a machine working in real time, you'll know this is true. A house built out of plumb and out of square doesn't mean it'll fall down, but it doesn't mean it's built correctly if it hasn't. There's a prevailing idea here with this example, and that idea is that a spool shifting laterally on its axis then interacting with a braking methodology is incorrect even though it still functions. My point is that it will perform correctly when set to a neutral position, therefore more predictably. If you're OK with your spool shifting towards or away from the braking interface depending on where the reel ends up as you rotate your wrist through the cast, then continue. My suggestion is to remove that unnecessary variable and tune your reels to a true zero-play/zero-tension setting. You'll get a more predictable outcome which is exactly what you'd expect with that setting. Why would you want the spool shifting whatsoever after you've fine-tuned your braking adjustments? If you visualize what's actually happening in real time you wouldn't.

[1984isNOW]

I think another example, maybe more fitting or at least more understood in the angling community, might be having some wiggle in the reel. Many people can that slop, and don't like it, call it a sign of low tolerances in manufacturing.

 

I'd apply that sentiment here as well, @PhishLI' s explanation certainly makes sense to me and if zero is zero then why go below? If the fall rate at zero and the fall rate at negative 12 are the same why introduce wiggle which introduces more variables as the reel rocks side to side.

 

This isn't to say that zero is absolutely no wiggle, it very well may be that a mm further of a turn is terminal velocity, but that may bring a .2mm wiggle - is that acceptable? Preferable? Perfect? Regardless it's reasonable, so I'll try to do some casts as is and tighten it up for comparison sake.

 

Appreciate everybody taking the time to share their thoughts

[bulldog1935]

Somehow, this discussion ended up on a different thread, also.  

Daiwa's Zero Set is just what it says, it sets Zero on the spool.  Zero tension, zero side play.  A little side play is a better result than a little tension.  

You can probably live with up to a mm of side play, but what you're really looking for is incipient side play.  Find side play and dial it out.  

If you have too much side play, it affects the mag.  If the reel is leaning toward palm plate, the spool slides that way and increases mag.  

More likely, you'll cast with the handle down, which can reduce the mag you went to the effort to set.  As the spool slides that way, there's less inductor mass in the mag field, etc.  

 

[Cbump]

1 hour ago, PhishLI said:

you've heard over and over again that fluorocarbon doesn't stretch or has low stretch

Still going through your reply but my own use tells me It has low stretch compared to big game that I grew up using. Such a big difference that It feels like no stretch to me. ??‍♂️

[1984isNOW]

@bulldog1935 wish my Zillion had some blue on it, looks dope man.

 

These cats were right, I took it to a spot just to try this out. Was crazy windy.

 

I literally said wow 3 times after adjusting. Casted a 3/8 skirted buzzbait on medium mf, maybe slow side of fast.

 

The wind was a beast, couple manageable nests, but surprisingly handled the wind very well. My only available position was directly into the wind and this is why I wowed, first cast after adjusting was a perfectly placed cast to the backside of a dock, I didn't think I'd ever get it that close without hitting it.

 

A few more casts and a small step to the side I casted clean past the dock, wow. I can't remember exactly what the third one was, but we're talking hours ago so it's a miracle I remembered any of it at all.

 

I'm hoping the wind dies down tomorrow so I can really get a feel on this thing, but so far I'm impressed.

10 minutes ago, Cbump said:

Still going through your reply but my own use tells me It has low stretch compared to big game that I grew up using. Such a big difference that It feels like no stretch to me. ??‍♂️

Depending on which fluoro you use, a few really well done YouTube vids show some fluro more stretchy than some mono.

 

His point is all over the place people say it's stretchless and invisible, neither claims are true. And in some cases aren't even just hyperbole, just false.

[MontclairDave]

On 7/31/2023 at 1:41 AM, PhishLI said:

^^^Mic drop.

x2. Effortless. Freaked me out so much when I first got it, I thought there was something wrong with the reel! So smooth and silent if felt completely “other” compared to my Shimano Curados and SLXs. Definitely getting another one, as soon as I can scratch up sone extra coin (and that’s a lotta coin, even for JDM, which I bought the first time around). 

[brophog]

On 8/1/2023 at 11:40 AM, Cbump said:

Curious why I have been told more times than I can count, including on here, other forums, and in articles, to set up Daiwas with a small amount of side to side play, which has worked for me for all my reels. But somehow it’s a myth now because you say so? Who is right? 

 

I don't think that advice is at odds with what's in this thread. It's just that it's easier to describe and recognize that you've gone past the point of zero tension if you add some slop to the adjustment.

 

[MontclairDave]

On 7/31/2023 at 9:37 PM, casts_by_fly said:

take out some of that play.  Tighten it until the spool just barely moves (with the thumb-bar down) and give it tiny bit more. Then you can play from there. I go a little looser for general applications and a little tighter for heavy lures so I don’t need as much thumb. 

Just curious why the thumb bar needs to be held down when adjusting the spool tension?

[casts_by_fly]

2 hours ago, MontclairDave said:

Just curious why the thumb bar needs to be held down when adjusting the spool tension?

to remove the 'stopper' that the holds the spool in place.  When you're casting, you're casting without it in place.  Adjust your tension that way.

[Dan N]

Never heard  of that^

[Darth-Baiter]

i think the instructions on my BC reels say to do so.  

[casts_by_fly]

2 hours ago, Dan N said:

Never heard  of that^

 

I think for most reels it probably doesn't matter.  It would only matter if there is some lateral interference or touching between the spool/shaft/assembly and the thumb bar/release mechanism.  Then again, its easy enough to do it that way so why not.

[dmiles]

I saw a video from daiwa Japan on the zillion. They suggest tightening the spool until there is no side to side and then go back one click. They said after that adjust everything with the brakes only. I have only got about 20 minutes so far on my zillion so I don't have it set right but it wasn't backlashing at all. They said in the video once it's setup, you don't need to thumb on the cast until it hits the water. Let it go.

 

I watched my spool go crazy on the cast but it always corrected itself by the time it hit the water. 

[dmiles]

I got about 2 hours today with my zillion. I tried to get it setup exactly like they said in the video, no side to side and then back one click. Withe the worm and weight even on Mac brake it wasn't quite good enough. I went about 3 clicks past that and then I was able to work with the brakes to get it squared away. I only had backlashing when I made a mistake on my casts, but I really don't like the line I'm using either. I'm probably going to put on braid. 

 

It was also my first time pairing it with the steez werewolf rod. That rod is sick. So sensitive and really my nicest rod by far. I have an ultralight setup coming from Japan next week, but I'm considering getting one more steez for my tatula reel.  I'm really looking forward to the ultra light setup where I can fight 1/2 pound Sunny's for 20 minutes like it's a 500 pound shark