Leader Breaking on Hookset

[papajoe222]

Line breaking at the knot has been a continual problem that has really frustrated me this season.  It only happens with single hook presentations and I know it isn't the knot that is the culprit.  It dawned on me (yea, I'm hard headed)  that there is next to zero give to a short leader and of course, zero give to braid.  Looking back on the season, all of my break offs have happened when my leader has been shortened by repeated lure changes or reties. I've never been a fan of leaders to begin with, but with slow presentations, braid is just too visible to have confidence in, so for years I either went with straight fluoro, or straight mono on my reels.  Even though I never had a problem prior to this year, I did start going with a shorter leader, under 3ft.

The last break off I had, the leader was well under 2ft. I had always used a leader at least the length of the rod. I learned the lesson the hard way and am passing it along to anyone,  for whatever reason, considering going to a short leader for jigs or T-rigs.

[A kid from Canada]

I'll tie on a short 2ft leader to keep pike from chewing through my braid, but prevent the knot going through my first guide and never have an issue. I use a Uni knot on the lure and Alberto for the leader connection. I also use Big Game Mono for all my leaders anywhere from 8-20# depending on the situation, just like that line alot and have tons of confidence in its strength. 

[Big Hands]

It's a total system approach between the rod, reel/drag, line, knots, terminal tackle, and technique. Modifying any of these could alter the results. Some systems could be more forgiving to changes to any of the factors involved. I could certainly imagine that a super short leader length might have problems in at least some situations if you don't modify other aspects of the system to accommodate the characteristics of the new system (shorter leader length).

 

If I have a compelling reason to use a shorter leader length, I could alter something like the drag setting, the rod characteristics, or hookset technique to keep from breaking off the shorter leaders.

 

If I had a compelling reason to use short leaders, such as the tendency of heavier braid with heavier mono/fluorocarbon leaders to have the knot hang up on the T-Wing of a Daiwa Tatula. So, I could use leader lengths that won't allow the knot to wind back through the T-Wing. Then let's say I start breaking leaders on the hookset so I could possibly:

• Alter my hookset technique
• Use a different leader material that is more forgiving
• Use heavier leader material
• Use a lower drag setting
• Use a rod with a more forgiving power or action
• Use a different reel without the T-Wing
• Use an FG knot instead of an Alberto knot

Or I could just go back to longer leaders and dealing with the risk of the knot hanging up on the T-Wing. Two anglers fishing the same hardware and settings could have different results due solely to their technique. Myself, I usually replace a leader before it gets down to two or three feet long, but I am not immune to having to adjust to, or abandon changes when they present issues I didn't see coming. Sounds like you have adjusted your system to work satisfactorily for you. 

[Jig Man]

Two questions:  What pound test lines are you using?   What is your drag setting?

[1984isNOW]

Which exact lines are you using (brand/#testetc)

 

What knot?

 

What are the water conditions (visibility, weeds, wood, sparse/thick)?

 

What are the specs of the rod? Specs are bs, how does the rod power and action feel relative to others in your experience?

[Team9nine]

10 hours ago, papajoe222 said:

I've never been a fan of leaders to begin with, but with slow presentations, braid is just too visible to have confidence in, so for years I either went with straight fluoro, or straight mono on my reels. 

Out of curiosity, why did you change to braid/leader from straight mono/fluoro? I’m still in the camp of braid doesn’t belong on a baitcaster unless it does, and in those few instances a leader is unnecessary. Spinning I’m entirely opposite, nearly all braid to leader setups, and the best advice I tried all year (kudos to @A-Jay) was to finally go to long leader lengths - very eye opening difference while preserving all the best aspects of the system.

[papajoe222]

It sounds like I may need to change more than one thing, my hookset for one and my drag setting, which I’ve always set on the tight side, along with lengthening the leader to allow a bit more stretch. Except for my jig rod, the majority of my reels with braid are 30lb. My leader choice is either 12lb. Yo-Zuri or 15lb Abrazx. The rods are all MH either fast, or mod/fast action. 
the main reason I switched to braid/leader was the super clear waters I fish and as I mentioned the problem is with single hook, slow presentations. 
I’ve tried the Pitzen, SanDiego jam and most recently the Uni. The knot isn’t the culprit, it’s likely a combination of other factors.  For now, I’ll be going with 12lb. Big Game on a couple of combos and work on changing up some things. 

[Tennessee Boy]

On 7/29/2023 at 9:15 AM, Team9nine said:

I’m still in the camp of braid doesn’t belong on a baitcaster unless it does, and in those few instances a leader is unnecessary.

I use to feel the same way until I tried a bait caster that’s designed for braid.  I can cast 0.004 inch diameter braid on my Diawa Silver Wolf as well as I can on a spinning reel.

[Team9nine]

I’m fine with the line itself on a baitcasting outfit. I’m more thinking along the lines of the “negatives” of braid outweighing the positives in many cases, especially with people newer to baitcasting, IMO. Too much changing and altering of existing technique and equipment in order to accommodate the line characteristics (like in this example). Just my $0.02

[Dan N]

Check your line right in front of your T-rig occasionally. I’ve noticed some fraying pretty frequently lately. Maybe from sinker sliding or maybe just rough bottom/ cover. I’ve started to retie more frequently, causing less breaks at hookset 

[Glenn]

#1 reason I never use leader.  That's just me.  If you like to use it, knock yourself out. There's no "wrong" here.

[Jig Man]

One suggestion:  loosen your drag.  It won’t hurt if it slips a little on a hook set.

[Lead Head]

I start with about 6' of leader and will retie about twice. I try to keep at least 4' on big hookset rigs. I definitely swing "too hard" and have my drag "too tight" by most standards. If I have ever failed my leader knot on a hookset with my current system, I can't remember it.

 

40lb 832 to 25lb sniper - jigs in sharp rocks

30lb 832 to 14lb sniper - T-rigs and lighter jigs (plus pretty much any other bottom contact presentation) 

 

I use the simplified GT knot from the false YouTube video a few years back. It's faster and easier than a FG, and I did have a few knot failures when combining big swings with other leader knots I tried. 

I will mention that when I first started using a leader, yozuri hybrid really didn't like big hooksets. It even failed on me with a FG. Could have been something I was doing wrong, or a couple of bad spools, but when I switched to sniper all my problems seemed to go away and I haven't changed anything in 3 or 4 years. 

[PaulVE64]

Drag, it needs to be adjusted sometimes

[Big Hands]

I would also add that I have had leader material suddenly "go bad", which manifests itself when setting the hook. My gut feeling is that it happens when I have been careless about leaving the spool in the sun while I am fishing. All I know for sure is that when I start breaking off on hooksets when I normally wouldn't, I have replaced my leader material and the problem goes away. YMMV.

[dodgeguy]

On 7/29/2023 at 10:38 PM, Glenn said:

#1 reason I never use leader.  That's just me.  If you like to use it, knock yourself out. There's no "wrong" here.

You got that right. My brother in law had 5 breakoffs last week.i couldn't deal with that.id rather not get those 5 bites than get them and lose them.

[txchaser]

On 7/30/2023 at 6:40 AM, Jig Man said:

One suggestion:  loosen your drag.  It won’t hurt if it slips a little on a hook set.

This plus you can set the hook with your wrist vs your whole upper body if you are maintaining contact. I used to fish almost nothing but braid to leader. If you are moving the rod tip five feet and there's not much bow in your braid, there's really no where to go; that fish isn't moving five feet. Rod bends one or two, braid bow gets one or two, fish still isn't moving the last foot or two if it has any size.

 

IMO longer leader is just patching a hookset that's too much for the setup.

 

It took me a good bit of time to get used to hooksets after moving to straight flouro or mono. 

 

[WRB]

1st and foremost I am against braid to leader, 1 knot is 100% stronger the 2 knots. If you can go all braid or all mono, Copoly, FC that is my 1st choice.

Braid to leader is a choice for spinning reels to reduce line twist. When I had my own boat it was easy to manage line twist using spinning tackle. Now as a backseater I find myself using braid to leader with finesse spinning because I can no longer untwist my line easily and don’t like it but it does solve asking to run my line behind the boat to untwist line.

Spinning rod guides and reels handle leader 2 knots knot easily. Still 2 knots can fail 2X as often then1 regardless of the knots used.

Tom

[islandbass]

Sorry to hear this @papajoe222, but if a leader is that short, say 2’ left I think it’s so short it practically defeats the purpose of the leader. All the reties, and stretching done to it with every retie and also being that short, it might be going in and out of the guides by then two. That’s “wear and tear” on the line and knot. 
 

Perhaps nothing is “wrong” except needing to replace the leader at that point. After all as you said, it was not really an issue beforehand. ?
 

I am in Glenn’s camp and stay away from leaders too. I also don’t use braid as much as I love its traits because bottom line my waters are fairly clear and I have noted the %ages that compared to any of the lines I use and have used, braid catches the least. This is just for me. I don’t hate braid, it just doesn’t suit my needs and I sure wish it did. 

[FishTank]

I like braid to leader on spinning gear, some topwater and for some bottom contact baits but not much else. 

 

My suggestion is if you want to go this route, use actual leader material and see if that makes a difference.  For me, it did. I have one set up with the same leader on it since early spring and last year I didn't change it until it snapped on some rocks. I do tend to make my leader around 7-10 feet and change it when it gets down to 2.

[papajoe222]

Thanks all.

Good news for me, It appears that a couple of changes on my part have, so far, eliminated the leader knot breaking at the hook-eye.. First, I went back to a long(er) leader, around 7ft. Second, I changed from a 'cross their eyes' hook-set to something resembling the one I use for hair jigs. I believe the leader length made more of a difference, But I'll stick with that style hook-set for now, except for my skirted jigs. For them, the dinks are gonna grow wings.