Lead Acid vs AGM

[NYBasser]

1 hour ago, gimruis said:

The primary issue is that both my chargers are rated for lead acid or AGM only. They are not lithium rated, so I’d have to scrap and replace those too. Now we’re talking 1000 bucks with chargers and lithium batteries.

True but you're getting twice if not more run time over an AGM/Lead Acid setup and twice the lifetime (10-12 years for lithium vs 4-5 for AGM/Lead Acid). You're talking roughly $600-$800 for 2 AGMs depending on brand vs $800-$1000 for the Lithiums and charger. For me, it was a no-brainer to go lithium. 

 

Just my own experience but I used to run a group 31 AGM for my 2 Solix 12's and Livescope + Echomap 10, and without running the big motor, the battery was dead in 5 hours. Now with the 125 ah Ionic Lithium, I can run the graphs all day and still have 70-80% remaining.

[MN Fisher]

3 minutes ago, NYBasser said:

You're talking roughly $600-$800 for 2 AGMs depending on brand

Home Depot - Mighty Max 100ah AGM (exact one I have) $180ea - 2 for $360+tax...well under your quote

[NYBasser]

24 minutes ago, MN Fisher said:

Home Depot - Mighty Max 100ah AGM (exact one I have) $180ea - 2 for $360+tax...well under your quote

Gotcha, I'm quoting the more popular/well-known brands like Duracell, Optima, or X2. All those run between $300-$500 each. 

[gim]

1 minute ago, NYBasser said:

Gotcha, I'm quoting the more popular/well-known brands like Duracell, Optima, or X2. All those run between $300-$400 each. 

The specific ones I’m looking at are Duracell Ultra and Duracell Platinum. The platinum AGM version is at Sam’s Club for $200 each in size 27, and the ultra AGM is at Batteries Plus for $260 each in size 27.

 

I’m not really sure if one Duracell is better than the other, but the ones from Sam’s have an 18 month warranty and the ones from batteries plus have a 30 month warranty. I’ll do a little more research on these before next season but I’m leaning towards the Sam’s platinum version for $200 each. I’m gonna have to see if they offer a core return discount too on my old batteries.

[NYBasser]

6 minutes ago, gimruis said:

The specific ones I’m looking at are Duracell Ultra and Duracell Platinum. The platinum AGM version is at Sam’s Club for $200 each in size 27, and the ultra AGM is at Batteries Plus for $260 each in size 27.

 

I’m not really sure if one Duracell is better than the other, but the ones from Sam’s have an 18 month warranty and the ones from batteries plus have a 30 month warranty. I’ll do a little more research on these before next season but I’m leaning towards the Sam’s platinum version for $200 each. I’m gonna have to see if they offer a core return discount too on my old batteries.

You're talking about Group 27 which are smaller batteries, less runtime, and therefore cheaper than a Group 31 of the same brand. I was quoting the prices of Group 31 AGM batteries, my bad if there was any confusion.

[MN Fisher]

9 minutes ago, gimruis said:

I’m gonna have to see if they offer a core return discount too on my old batteries.

Published price of batteries usually does NOT include a core charge - bringing your old one's in will allow you to forego paying that addition. And I think by law, they have to accept old batteries back in lieu of the core charge.

4 minutes ago, NYBasser said:

You're talking about Group 27 which are smaller batteries, less runtime, and therefore cheaper than a Group 31 of the same brand. 

He mentioned earlier that he can only fit Group 27s - not enough room for Group 31s

[NYBasser]

3 minutes ago, MN Fisher said:

Published price of batteries usually does NOT include a core charge - bringing your old one's in will allow you to forego paying that addition. And I think by law, they have to accept old batteries back in lieu of of the core charge.

He mentioned earlier that he can only fit Group 27s - not enough room for Group 31s

This is what happens when I don't read the whole thread lol, my bad.

[Woody B]

Batteries aren't what they used to be.   We replace agms all the time at work that are weeks of months old.   (automotive technician)    There aren't that many flooded automotive batteries now,  but they drop like flies too.   I haven't looked up the specs on the batteries you're looking at but I suspect the AGM's are a pound or 2 heavier, and have a slight bit less power.   I understand the no maintenance and non spilling for AGM's.  If that's worth the money for you go with the AGM's.  If that's not a big deal go with flooded batteries.  

 

I suspect the 100ah lithiums mentioned are group 31 size.   I use 2 Ionic 50ah  batteries for my trolling motor.  They're tiny.   They're $350 each, but I saw some "refurbished" ones of the bay for 1/2 that.  (I don't know if that's legit though)   My Noco 5x2 charger was ~$140.  

[MickD]

15 hours ago, gimruis said:

Anyone else care to comment?

I'm in  for the AGM based on my purchasing one in 2017, starting battery, powers my depth finders and starts the engine.  It still is performing like new.  I keep it on a smart charger almost all the time during the fishing season, disconnect it over the winter (cold where stored) when fully charged, and it has served me well. 

[gim]

Good to hear @MickD.  What brand and size are you using?

[MickD]

I'll check and update later.  I think it's a Cabela's, made by ???  I'll get you the size. It's used with two Humminbird depth finders and a 60 HP Merc 4 stroke. 

 

Cabelas Pro Series (made in China) , didn't see size spec on it but its footprint is 10 x 6 in, 8 1/4 inches high. It is a starting battery and not a deep cycle.   I think this size makes it a group 24.  I have to admit it doesn't get challenged much by starting since the engine always starts almost instantly.  The depth finders running all day probably are more of a challenge. 

[Bankc]

19 hours ago, gimruis said:

I just also realized that Sam’s Club sells batteries, and I am a member there. They have a size 27 Duracell Platinum AGM battery for $200 that’s comes with an 18 month warranty.

 

Is the Duracell Platinum a higher grade battery than the Duracell Ultra version that Batteries Plus sells? They both seem to have pretty good reviews online.

It mostly likely is the same battery.  

 

The thing with all of these types of batteries is there aren't that many manufacturers out there anymore.  Most of them will be the same battery, rebranded with a different sticker on the outside.  Sometimes the warranty will differ, but remember these are almost always pro-rated warranties.  And if you've ever made a claim on one, and I have, it's usually something like $5-15 off your next battery.  So it's not a full replacement warranty, but rather just a fancy coupon that loses value the closer you get to the expiration date.  

 

Honestly, I'd ignore brands and models and look for the sticker that says the date of manufacture instead.  The longer these batteries have been sitting on the shelf, not being charged and sulfating, the shorter lifespans they'll have.  

[gim]

1 minute ago, Bankc said:

look for the sticker that says the date of manufacture instead.  The longer these batteries have been sitting on the shelf, not being charged and sulfating, the shorter lifespans they'll have.  

Great idea @Bankc, I will do that.

[WRB]

Not trying to sell anyone anything!

Vmax Tank site has 2 ea MR127-100’s shipped @ $259 ea or $520 for 2 ea.

[BFS-Angler75]

On 7/25/2023 at 9:27 PM, NYBasser said:

True but you're getting twice if not more run time over an AGM/Lead Acid setup and twice the lifetime (10-12 years for lithium vs 4-5 for AGM/Lead Acid). You're talking roughly $600-$800 for 2 AGMs depending on brand vs $800-$1000 for the Lithiums and charger. For me, it was a no-brainer to go lithium. 

 

Just my own experience but I used to run a group 31 AGM for my 2 Solix 12's and Livescope + Echomap 10, and without running the big motor, the battery was dead in 5 hours. Now with the 125 ah Ionic Lithium, I can run the graphs all day and still have 70-80% remaining.

 

I switched to a Lithium battery for my canoe setup. Shaved about 40 pounds off the weight, and I have a battery I don't really have to worry about. I got a lithium for my fish finder as well. Love that I don't have to worry about them lasting 8 or more hours.

 

To the OP, yeah I feel you on the chargers. But the investment into lithium is worth it in the long run. However, if you're going to stay with lead based batteries, my vote is for AGM.

[gim]

9 hours ago, BFS-Angler75 said:

 

I switched to a Lithium battery for my canoe setup. Shaved about 40 pounds off the weight, and I have a battery I don't really have to worry about. I got a lithium for my fish finder as well. Love that I don't have to worry about them lasting 8 or more hours.

 

To the OP, yeah I feel you on the chargers. But the investment into lithium is worth it in the long run. However, if you're going to stay with lead based batteries, my vote is for AGM.

 

If weight savings was a selling point and I already had chargers adapted for lithium batteries, it would be a no brainer.  Most of my outings are in the 3-5 hour range so longevity on the water is not really an issue either.

[Way2slow]

Battery Facts:

A lot of it depends on who/where the battery is made and the quality of the battery.  I try to avoid all imported batteries, which is very hard to do these days.  There are only 4 or maybe 5 battery manufacturers in the US and only a couple of them that make high quality batteries.

These are probably the two best, but don't think you are going to find them at Wal-Mart or other discount places.

1.  Marine and RV Batteries | U.S. Battery Mfg. Co. | Since 1926 (usbattery.com)

2. Trojan Battery | Home

These are good and sold under numerous names through a lot of places.

3. East Penn Manufacturing – The world's largest single site, family-owned lead-acid battery manufacturer 

They make a good battery and make lot of OEM batteries for different manufactures, plus Deka, Duracell,  BPS top of the line, and tons more.

 

Johnson Control used to be a major battery producer but they sold off much of their automotive style battery business several years ago.

With so many of the other brands that use to be US manufactures, some of their top of the line batteries might still be made in the US, but many of them have changed to batteries made in Mexico and any place across the pond they can get them cheap and sell for big bucks under their name.

 

Lithium's are starting to make a market in the Marine Deep Cycle world but again, it's going to depend on weeding through the lies/false accusations and sales BS they are using to market them.  I'm still don't trust them enough to want to go that route yet.  It's going to take time for the consumers to work out who's are worth having.

 

For the absolute most run time out of lead acid batteries, it's going to take true deep cycle and service caps on the top.  Those have the most amount of plate surface area but a probably the least desirable because of the maintenance required.

The second in line would be the AGM Deep Cycle.  One bit of info, True deep cycle batteries DO NOT have a CCA/MCA rating on them because they are not designed to give the high amp surges required for cranking.

 

Now, how are you going to know if you are getting and US made battery or an import, you are probably not unless it's Trojan, US Battery or know which batteries East Penn makes.  With the parts stores and companies that buy/sell rebranded batteries, it just depends on which quality battery you are buying as to where it might be made.  For instance, Advance Auto Parts, sells batteries for five different manufacturers, depending on which one you get and the sales people don't have a clue.  So, unless you have a list of manufacturers codes and can read them, you ain't gonna know.

 

[gim]

29 minutes ago, Way2slow said:

3. East Penn Manufacturing – The world's largest single site, family-owned lead-acid battery manufacturer 

They make a good battery and make lot of OEM batteries for different manufactures, plus Deka, Duracell,  BPS top of the line, and tons more.

This is partially why I was leaning towards a Duracell replacement.  I knew that they were made by East Penn.  The other selling point is that they are sold locally here at both Batteries Plus and Sam's Club.  I want to be able to return them under warranty locally if I need to.

 

Are the Duracell AGMs made there too, do you know?

[Way2slow]

Yes.  The last few batteries I've bought have been Duracell from Sam's Club.

East Penn used to have a warehouse near me in Macon and I got them wholesale there.  When I used to work for a living, I had an account there and the manager was a friend, but they closed it and moved it to the other side of Atlanta, so no more wholesale batteries.

[Reel]

I use  3 size 31 batteries and went from regular batteries to AGM for my trolling motor 4 years ago.  My regular batteries would last 3 to 4 years.  I am on my 4th year with the AGM and they are good.  I went from flooded cell (regular) to AGM because of ease of maintenance and because of winter storage.  The AGM's don't require an inspection for water level.  They are in a difficult place to reach and that is a plus.  I also store my boat during winter ( 6 mounths ) and I can't charge the AGM batteries and that has not been a problem.  They charge up real fast in Spring.

 

The AGM are Duracells.

 

[gim]

Thanks @Reel, that is pretty much my situation exactly except I use size 27 and I keep my boat in my own garage during the winter.

[Kirtley Howe]

I love AGM batteries. I think they are the best bang for the buck. They last a long time, are pretty much maintenance free, hold a charge very well and for a long time when not in use (storage) and you don't need a special charger to charge them as most any modern battery charger has an AGM setting. And they cannot spill no matter how rough the water is or what position the battery is mounted in. The down side to AGM batteries are that they weight just as much as a wet cell (lead acid) battery, they are somewhat more expensive than a standard wet cell battery (though not a whole lot more expensive), and they have one characteristic that can be a bit of a problem...the work great right up until they fail completely...no warning, no loss of power, and no increase in charge time or ability to hold a charge, right up to the failure point. If that failure point comes when you are out on the water, that can ruin your day. For that reason, my starting battery is NOT an AGM. Regular wet cell batteries usually give you lots of warning that they are failing...lower output, and longer charging times are the most obvious.  

[gim]

4 minutes ago, Kirtley Howe said:

For that reason, my starting battery is NOT an AGM. Regular wet cell batteries usually give you lots of warning that they are failing

Great point.  I don't need to replace the cranking battery at this time as its just over a year old but when the time comes I think I'll stick with the lead acid version solely based on this information.

[WRB]

AGM marine battery doesn’t die quickly unless it’s over charged, generally expect 5 to 7 years of battery life.

Tom

[Kirtley Howe]

56 minutes ago, WRB said:

AGM marine battery doesn’t die quickly unless it’s over charged, generally expect 5 to 7 years of battery life.

Tom

Didn't say they died quickly. 4-7 years can be expected life for them with proper care. What I said was they die SUDDENLY. They work great until they don't work at all.