I Don't Understand This

[12poundbass]

I know it’s hard to keep politics out of topics like this, but let’s keep the politics out of this thread and this site. As you all know, it never ends well! 

[Mobasser]

I never expected this thread to take off like this. If I've offended anyone, that was never my intention. I apologize. I appreciate all the input here.

[ironbjorn]

Chick Fil A around here pays $19.50/hr. I can sit on a forklift for $28/hr easily (and I did before disability [mental illness]). $18 for that kind of labor in this world isn't gonna cut it. I rail against the entitled, spoiled, certain politically leaning brats as much as anyone, but in this case, it truly isn't worth it. Places are actually paying now, and for minimal work.

Heck, my dad went back to work for something to do and just walks around an Amazon facility making sure people are being safe for $23/hr. I wouldn't break my back either. I'll sell chicken nuggets for the $19.50 before I break my back for $18.

[Functional]

I think I missed something but I think you're good @Mobasser

 

Something not really discussed here is retaining employees, especially the newer generations. It's a bit painful for me to sit here doing my job for a 2.5% raise a year knowing if I changed jobs right now (which you can easily do in this market) and get 10-20% more. I enjoy the security I have with the jobs I choose but there is a limit to being able to provide a better life for my family and it gets really tempting. While the newer gens can be seen as less loyal I cant entirely fault them when typical annual raises dont even meet inflation...you are really taking a pay cut every time that happens. 

 

As far as work ethic of the younger generation I'd chalk it up to the same as every other generation. Given my job I work all up and down the company structure and deal with all generations and there are great people and duds in all of them. I have a guy whos 21 and started with us in highschool and we hired him on full time. Always wants the extra hours or days and never complains about the work hes given. You can give him a list of tasks and can count by the end of the week hes done them plus others he found on the way to do those. Also have a guy currently in college who just turned 21 and hes one of the hardest workers with a smile I've encountered. Hes dedicated enough I extended the opportunity to interview (cant outright offer a job at my company) him for our open tech position and he still has a year of college left. Expressed his school is more important and we will completely open up hours for him to do what he needs to finish college. Just waiting to hear back if he can make it work. Its out there, just need to find those people. 

[hokiehunter373]

So you're friend was paying $24/hour before but offering $18/hour now?  Offer the $24 and find a more qualified worker.  Costs more to hire than retain.

[A-Jay]

These threads are fun ~

Always plenty of passionate viewpoints. 

They allow us to 'vent' juuuuuuust a little.

Once we start to hit that rumble strip though . . .

Well, you know.

A-Jay

 

[TOXIC]

Don’t confuse the economy with politics.  The economy has made profit margins for business owners narrow.  I can site a lot of businesses that can’t find workers from hospitality to manufacturing, I read the articles every day and I know of some personally.  When Elon Musk has to threaten to fire employees that won’t return to the office it’s not an unfair employer.  If businesses can’t make any money due to the economy, inflation, supply chain problems, etc.., how can they pay the higher wages it takes to make a living wage due to those very same factors.  My heavens, just read a little about all the big companies laying off thousands of employees like in the auto industry including Ford and GM and tell me how rosy the business climate is.  Jobs that were traditionally high school gas money are now considered careers and deserving of a “living wage”? Seriously.  

[PhishLI]

6 hours ago, Jar11591 said:

The only way the statement “nobody wants to work anymore” is true is if there are a couple more words added onto the end of it.

In general, for the most part, young people who were born of ancestors who came here 200 years ago, or 150 years ago, or 100 years ago do not want to work in the trades anymore. Call them Europeans if that's what you'd like to say but feel like you can't or shouldn't. Day laborers are willing though.

 

I check in with a friend every few years who has the same type of business that the OP's friend/boss does. Last time was back in March. His main guy of 20 years moved back to Ecuador as of our previous get-in-touch call, so I was curious if he'd found a replacement yet. He hasn't, so he's going it alone. I asked if it's really been that hard, and he said beyond, and that day laborers without proper paperwork who are found in droves in the parking lots of places like home despot won't even get into his truck for under $300 a day these days. Doesn't matter that they many have little trades-skill and might have been farm laborers the month before. The ones who do have skill want $350 a day and often have an attitude. My friend's hypothesis is that the skilled guys are those who on the course of operating their own business as fast as possible and are only there to build the capital to get there, so they'll get in the truck but just don't want to be there, or won't do work they believe to be beneath their skill level.

 

This is not an isolated story. Many of my friends are business owners in the trades, from home improvement contractors to tree companies. Same story. Those of European ancestry don't want to do this work anymore is what they say, regardless of the pay. Can't find them unless they're a relative of another business owner. In contrast, most of the new arrivals are willing to put in a real work day, but they aint gonna do that for $18 bucks an hour.

 

I told my friend who's going it alone now that he's better off. He's got a lot to lose. Hiring someone who cannot be put on the books is a disaster waiting to happen. I won't do it, ever. Nope. So many things could go wrong. The implications are devasting to a legitimate business owner if they do. I've had workers who've gotten injured. Thank god I'm on the up and up. The costs are staggering on the front end, and on the back end I'm paying out on increased insurance rates. Thankfully negligence on my part was not deemed to be part of the equation, because it wasn't. They simply got hurt. It happens. Thankfully I wasn't sued. The lawyers they were required to have at the comp hearings tried to get the injured parties to sue, but they refused.

 

It's not easy being in business, eh?

[Buzzbaiter]

This is my uneducated, inexperienced opinion as a younger person going into college. Take it with a serving of salt.

 

I can’t speak for those on the lower rungs of the economic ladder (immigrants, those in poverty, etc.), but for the average American coming out of high school, college is the norm, not the luxury. You go into college with a vague idea of what you’re going to do with a degree, then hopefully come out with a job that pays well and is mildly interesting. There’s only a small handful of folks who come out of high school and decide to work with their hands or join the military. My parents have always told me, “if you want to live life happy, you need a job that pays well. You need a degree for that.” That’s what I’m doing, and it’s what most of my peers are doing. My vague aspiration is to become a fisheries biologist, climb the ladder of experience, and make a good living. 
 

At the end of the day, people work because they need money to live; in other words, they work for themselves. People my age have no interest in working and dying for their company, or breaking their backs for mediocre pay. There’s no reason to do that when they can spend four years and a tuition fee to get a job that pays more and demands less. I’m not saying whether I agree or disagree, but that’s what I see. Irrespective of how a person feels about inflation, rising wages, or handouts, they’re going to take the job that gives them more. 
 

America is not the same country it was 100 years ago. It’s not even the same country it was 80, 50, or 25 years ago. Times have changed and people are changing with them. At the end of the day, it is what it is. There’s no point in getting mad when you can get even. That’s my $0.02

[Tennessee Boy]

17 hours ago, TOXIC said:

My heavens, just read a little about all the big companies laying off thousands of employees like in the auto industry including Ford and GM and tell me how rosy the business climate is. 

Who says the business climate is rosy?   The business climate is as difficult as it has been in at least 40 years.  Markets are very good at balancing things that are out of balance.  Right now the market is red hot for workers and extremely bad for businesses.  A high percentage of the restaurants around here are not running viable businesses because they don't have the necessary employees.  Eventually,  the poorly run business will go out of business and lay off their employees.  The economy will probably go into a recession. This will ease the labor shortage.  Then we'll start seeing threads on here about the good ole days when someone who was willing to work could easily find a job.  That's when you'll know it's time to invest in the stock market and the cycle will start over.

[MediumMouthBass]

Most people on here have said to tell your friend to pay more since most big corporations are paying 5-10 dollars more for easier work. Thats just the problem, these big corporations come in offering what took most people a decade or 2 of work to earn for doing basic level entry jobs to people with little to no experience. These companys can definitely afford it, but can all the small businesses in your town survive if they are paying out more than they are making?

If everyone in America can make $25 for working at a fast food chain, then any and all small businesses and trades will eventually all fail.

If you take these new workers and tell them work ethic means nothing and hard work means nothing, but hey heres twice as much in pay as that small shop down the streets paying, that small shop down the street will be closing.

And in order for these smaller shops and stores to stay open and actually have people employed, well they will have to eventually raise their prices atleast 25% if not way more.

And then no one will shop their because they can get it from Amazon or Walmart cheaper.

[Mobasser]

A lot of guys think that as soon as they pick up a hammer, they deserve 30 dollars per hr. It's never been like this. As a retired carpenter I trained many apprentice carpenters in this field.                                                   They all had to start somewhere, and with little knowledge or skills this is how it is.  You could never expect to start at the top wage, if you can't run a saw, measure accurately, or don't know where to start on any project. In tade work, your paid for your knowledge, skills and speed. This comes with time and experience.As your skills improve, your pay rate goes up. This is how it's been since I started in this work, over 35 yrs ago.

[MediumMouthBass]

In the old America, men and women worked in terribly awful conditions and got paid a couple cents to a couple dollars for an extreme amount of work. Ask any older man or woman who lived during or just after WW2.

These workers today have it made, and are being treated like royalty for flipping burgers.

[VolFan]

I JUST WANT EVERYONE TO GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

 

There’s some truth to a lot of things in this thread, and a lot of opinions/assumptions/extrapolations with no empirical basis. But feelings and experiences count too. 

 

I still see the same variability in work ethic be it in our interns or our people who have been on the job 20 years. And that hasn’t changed in the 30 years I’ve been working. My first boss was happy to pay me double time on overtime to do the jobs they didn’t want to do. I try to worry about me and who’s coming with me. 

[ThatFishingGuy]

18 minutes ago, MediumMouthBass said:

These companys can definitely afford it, but can all the small businesses in your town survive if they are paying out more than they are making?

If you can't afford to pay your employees a livable wage for a full weeks work, you shouldn't be in business.

[MediumMouthBass]

@ThatFishingGuy alright, but then youll be complaining when your paying 50% more for everything you buy from that shop right?

 

And thats the big corporations plan. Make sure no small business can pay their workers and then they will own it all.

[Tackleholic]

3 hours ago, GReb said:

This was an issue before Covid as well. A percentage of folks refuse to work because child support and/or garnishments will take 65% of their check. They are better off drawing unemployment/disability and not having to pay those. 

The ease of quitting a job and drawing unemployment is a large part of the problem;  some make a career of just that.

3 hours ago, Jig Man said:

A couple of my friends were talking about this very thing a while back.  Their biggest issue was getting the prospective employees to pass a drug test.

Employers have difficulty getting "clean" job applicants;  so does the military.

[Tackleholic]

2 hours ago, PhishLI said:

In general, for the most part, young people who were born of ancestors who came here 200 years ago, or 150 years ago, or 100 years ago do not want to work in the trades anymore. Call them Europeans if that's what you'd like to say but feel like you can't or shouldn't. Day laborers are willing though.

 

I check in with a friend every few years who has the same type of business that the OP's friend/boss does. Last time was back in March. His main guy of 20 years moved back to Ecuador as of our previous get-in-touch call, so I was curious if he'd found a replacement yet. He hasn't, so he's going it alone. I asked if it's really been that hard, and he said beyond, and that day laborers without proper paperwork who are found in droves in the parking lots of places like home despot won't even get into his truck for under $300 a day these days. Doesn't matter that they many have little trades-skill and might have been farm laborers the month before. The one's who do have skill want $350 a day and often have an attitude. My friend's hypothesis is that the skilled guys are those who on the course of operating their own business as fast as possible and are only there to build the capital to get there, so they'll get in the truck but just don't want to be there, or won't do work they believe to be beneath their skill level.

 

This is not an isolated story. Many of my friends are business owners in the trades, from home improvement contractors to tree companies. Same story. Those of European ancestry don't want to do this work anymore is what they say, regardless of the pay. Can't find them unless they're a relative of another business owner. In contrast, most of the new arrivals are willing to put in a real work day, but they aint gonna do that for $18 bucks an hour.

 

I told my friend who's going it alone now that he's better off. He's got a lot to lose. Hiring someone who cannot be put on the books is a disaster waiting to happen. I won't do it, ever. Nope. So many things could go wrong. The implications are devasting to a legitimate business owner if they do. I've had workers who've gotten injured. Thank god I'm on the up and up. The costs are staggering on the front end, and on the back end I'm paying out on increased insurance rates. Thankfully negligence on my part was not deemed to be part of the equation, because it wasn't. They simply got hurt. It happens. Thankfully I wasn't sued. The lawyers they were required to have at the comp hearings tried to get the injured parties to sue, but they refused.

 

It's not easy being in business, eh?

Business owners pay up 50% of each employees social security;  the higher the wages the more they pay.  Unemployment Insurance is required of employers, and based on the amount of payroll, it also increases with the rate of former employees being awarded unemployment compensation.  Don't know about today, I sold my business 12 years ago, but if I hired a high school or college student who wanted to work full time during the summer, I was required to provide him, or her, the same Health Insurance package which I fully paid for long time full time employees and myself if he worked over 29 hours per week.  Add up those $ and you may get a feeling of what a Business owner is faced with and most people don't understand.  The people who really make the huge incomes could understandably lose their initiative to grow a business and create new jobs and higher incomes for employees if regulations regulate their ability to progress.  You are right, it's not easy being in business.

[Woody B]

Trying to stay off the rumble strips here.  Inflation has raised the minimum wage without actually raising it.   The actually dollar amount for an entry level job is going to vary by region.   There's a manufacturing plant a couple miles from me with a sign stating "Starting pay $19.58 per hour.  $50 per week attendance bonus,  $5 per hour premium for 3rd shift"  There's also a sign on bonus, but I don't remember the amount.    $18 per hour isn't what is was a few years ago.  

 

The bad thing is, people who were making $25 to $60 per hour before the latest round of inflation are still making the same thing.   If entry level pay keeps going up I'm going to quit busting my butt for what I make, and get a job as the Wal Mart greeter.   

 

 

 

 

[Tackleholic]

This is more related to Bass Fishing.........I am retired and live in the heart of Bass Boat manufacturing.  I'm a few minutes away from Ranger, Triton, Vexus, and Bass Cat.  If anyone wants to work, and can submit a "somewhat clean" application, they could move here and receive 4 immediate job offers.  These companies are offering sign on bonuses and other incentives, along with insurance and just about any other benefit I can think of.  How about a 40% employee discount at Bass Pro?  They are always short handed and try to carry extra employees because of the turnover rate and the ones who only work long enough to qualify for unemployment.  On top of that, much of  the younger generation believes there is nothing wrong with showing up late or not at all.  I see kids looking like starving urchins while the parents have money for booze, drugs, cigarettes, and tatoos while they sit at home.  I'm getting carried away again, signing off.

.

[Jigfishn10]

2 hours ago, MediumMouthBass said:

In the old America, men and women worked in terribly awful conditions and got paid a couple cents to a couple dollars for an extreme amount of work. Ask any older man or woman who lived during or just after WW2.

I think you’re being a little disingenuous comparing today’s current labor climate to the one 80 plus years ago, don’t you think? 

2 hours ago, MediumMouthBass said:

These workers today have it made, and are being treated like royalty for flipping burgers.

Not really, it’s labor supply and demand. Let the labor enjoy the added wages for a change. It’s been a long time coming, don’t you think?

[gim]

1 hour ago, Tackleholic said:

The ease of quitting a job and drawing unemployment is a large part of the problem;  some make a career of just that.

Except for the fact that unemployment pays about 40% of the actual wage that the person was making, depending on what state you’re in. If you were making $20/hour while working, unemployment here is paying you 8 bucks an hour. That’s not going to pay the bills no matter where you’re living.

 

Unemployment here also runs out after 90 days. People who work seasonal jobs in outdoor construction here often collect unemployment in the winter, but thats done by February. I have a cousin in this business. She works heavy machinery for 7 months, collects unemployment for 3, and does nothing for the other 2. We don’t get along very well lol

[Way north bass guy]

I can say it’s pretty much the same thing going on here in Canada too. I started working for my dad as a stonemason when I was 13 during summers, and full time with him after high school. When he retired, I started my own company, and work by myself. Been doing this full time now for over 25 years. I live and work in “cottage country”, a few hours north of Toronto. It’s a special place, that has a mix of year round residents of all ages, and jobs of all different pay rates, and in the summers our population triples when all the cottagers come up from the city to stay for the summer. The money that flows around here in construction is mind boggling, this is where the billionaires come to play in the summer, millionaires are a dime a dozen around here now, you’re not even a big deal unless your account starts with a B now! 
Since covid, a lot of people have moved away from the city and turned their summer homes into year round residences, and there’s still a ton of new cottages going up, so absolutely everyone in the trades is completely slammed with work. Couldn’t hire helpers even if you wanted to, and there doesn’t seem to be a large number of younger people wanting to get into it. 
I will say, the trades can be hard on your body, but if you’re careful, and “work smart instead of hard”, you can do fairly well. I can pretty much name my price for jobs, some I could pretty much throw an extra zero on the end of the quote and they’d say “ when can you start”, it’s that crazy right now. I work alone, and plan to keep it that way. I can take on whatever size job I want, work at the pace I want and know that when it’s complete, it’s been done to my standards, which are pretty darn high, and I’m paid accordingly for my services. 

[MediumMouthBass]

The point im trying to make that not many are getting is,

Owning a small business in America now is extremely difficult, you have no idea what these guys have to do to stay in business in a post covid era. The insurance costs, utilities, maintenance, fees, taxes etc... So with inflation they are paying alot more to get what they are selling, but if they raise the prices too much their customers will complain and stop shopping their.

So please tell me how a small business barely staying afloat that is paying alot more for products but can only raise the prices a small bit without losing customers is supposed to now pay each employee $10-$15 extra per hour on top of minimum wage for entry level jobs.

A big corporation worth hundreds of millions of dollars can afford this, but in my opinion this will ruin the work force of America, and will cause many if not every small business/trades to go out of business.

No one will work these small shops anymore because hey go flip burgers for $25, instead of working there for $15.

The older men and women will think wow ive been working at this job for 3 decades and i can just quit and flip burgers for the same price.

With inflation, yes workers should make more, but not an insane amount. I can understand paying good long term employees in harder jobs more, but their pay is staying the same. While entry level jobs that shouldnt even be higher than minimum wage are now skyrocketing way past what they are worth.

 

What will happen is this.

All the mechanics, plumbers, welders, doctors, construction workers, etc... will be gone because why do hard work that matters when you can bag grocerys or flip burgers for the same if not more money.

[throttleplate]

7 hours ago, ironbjorn said:

I'll sell chicken nuggets for the $19.50 before I break my back for $18.