Near Deep Water

[Capt No Fish]

I have heard this expression in youtube video's and read it on the forums.  As a newer angler I would like to quantify this a little.  Now before you beat me up with the it's relative answer, I know it is.  But there must be some guard rails I can use for my judgement.

 

Is near deep water only next to a drop off?  Does it just need to be only a 1 ft deeper or am I looking for 10ft or more deeper?  Is there a point where it can be too much of a drop off and go too deep. (example submergent grass from the shore and then it drops off to 40 ft and this is all within 20ft of the shoreline)

 

How far away do I consider near?  Is it 10 ft, 10ft, 30 Yrds or 300 hundred yards?  I don't know how far a bass will travel during the course of a day to move up and down.  At some point it must be considered to mild of a grade to be near deep water and I should be looking for more of a drop.

 

When looking for structure or cover "near" deep water when do I quit the search at.

 

Hopefully you can see my confusion.

 

I appreciate your input!

 

[scaleface]

Those are some really good questions. 

[Choporoz]

Sorry, but it depends. And it is relative.

 

Lousy answers, I know.  Buy the fact is that bass don't have strict rules and limits.   It would be nice to have some solid guidelines, but I don't think they exist.  Every fish is different.   Every depth transition is different; every bit of structure and cover near/on transitions is different.  The same bass relating to a 2' transition in a featureless, rather flat pocket might prefer a dock end pylon set in 19FOW on the same lake.

 

Now, I admit that I do start to make my own rules/guidelines as I become more familiar with a lake, or area of a lake.  One lake arm, I like to see 12+ FOW within maybe 10-15 yards.  Same lake, I might be looking for 20'+ under laydown crowns.  Areas of local tidal Potomac have 1000's of acres that aren't more than 8' at high tide...anything within 50 yards of a kiddie pool size depression might be worth examining. 

[A-Jay]

I agree with @Choporoz

In that I stopped believing in and even looking, for hard & fast bass fishing rules.

The last one I was a staunch believer in seems to have gone right out the window.

So everything's up for grabs for me at this point.

However, we have to start somewhere, so I'm OK with calling what follows 'generalizations'

rather than rules.

So what's 'near deep water' mean ?

No way to offer an actual unit of measure on this deal but I can get with this . . . . 

The 'distance' bass might be from 'deep water' can be dependent on:

The season; early & late (cooler water in other words) sort of expect them to be closer to it.

Warmer water periods might see them willing to venture a bit farther from it to eat and even hang out a while.

Water Clarity could play a role - regardless of the season, clearer water could see them holding

& feeding closer to it.  While more turbid deals might offer them enough security to leave the depths a bit further behind and get all up in the skinny stuff.

The Presence of cover: most every bass head on the planet knows that shallow weeds & cover provide a safe haven for bait & bass.  And if there's enough cover to give them 'a route' straight to the shallow food from the deep, they'll probably use it.  

Low Light / night time; this one can be tricky but 'generally speaking', this may be the universal 'go to' for most every bass maniac.  Fish will often go places and travel distances to eat that they will not do any other time of the day #coverofdarkness.

Bass like 'edges' and bottom color & composition changes as well as 'something' to hold on.  Often doesn't need to be much or it can be pretty massive.  Again, not a hard & fast rule, as there are big bass taken off 'nothing banks' and open flats all the time.  We may never know exactly what that's all about but it happens. 

The dreaded boating traffic and even fishing pressure can make bass a little wary and somewhat unwilling to venture away from the security of the depths.

Finally, I can only go by what I've experienced. 

And when I think about & look back at many of my productive fish catching areas,

at any given point, at least some of this plays a role in my results.

Duplicating it on new and especially Big Water can be a daunting task.  

Either way, if you figure out a short cut, please fill me in on it.

Otherwise, my search continues . . . . 

Good Luck

A-Jay

 

 

 

[Captain Phil]

Spend some time on YouTube looking at the Toledo Bend & Lake Fork bass tracking telemetry study where many common assumptions about bass behavior have been proven wrong.  It's pretty eye-opening.

[T-Billy]

Good info above. I'll just add, The shallow cover with easy deep water access can be productive anytime the water is 38 degrees and above. The disolved O2 content is too high below that, forcing the fish to go to deeper, warmer water. Thanks to @WRB for that info. I'd experienced that shallow, sun baked wood bite shutting off like a switch below 38 in the fall for years, but didn't know why until Tom shared that in a post.

As far as what I consider quick/easy deep water access, I wanna see that first break within a few boat lengths of shore during the colder water periods. I'll also gernerally be fishing the side that gets the most sun if the surface temp is below about 55.

[scaleface]

I classify all topography as structure. Good structure has a depth change . Points, humps, channels and the like.  Poor structure doesnt but still bass will occupy cover on poor structure  . Cover on good structure , well those are the spots .

[Catt]

38 minutes ago, Captain Phil said:

Spend some time on YouTube looking at the Toledo Bend & Lake Fork bass tracking telemetry study where many common assumptions about bass behavior have been proven wrong.  It's pretty eye-opening.

 

Ken Smith Fishing 

For Toledo Bend, interview with Todd Driscoll.

[Tennessee Boy]

I’ll share a few rules I still believe in.
 

1.  Bass live in the water.  
2.  Bass need to eat.

I got live sonar in the spring of 2022.  It has rocked my reality.   The bass in the lakes I fish primarily eat Shad.  I’ve noticed that when the Shad are deep,  you won’t catch many bass shallow.  When the Shad are shallow you won’t catch many fish deep.  Shad appear to have more rules than bass.  I don’t think anyone knows the Shad rules.  I’m convinced that I need to try to figure out the Shad rules.  If you don’t have Shad in your lakes then you can probably ignore everything I have to say about bass. ?‍♂️

 

 

[king fisher]

I fish a lake with steep banks.  Most places it is 100 foot deep or deeper within 5 yards of shore.  It is impossible for a bass to be more than 20 yards from deep water.  Most of the year the best places are where it is shallow the furthest from shore, any flat no matter how small, and the points that drop off slowly.  Another lake is the opposite, not very deep most of the banks are gradual, and the best places are where the points drop quickly, the banks are steep, and the flats are only good during the spawn.  Hard bottom and cover are key in both lakes.

[txchaser]

My experience so far is that the bigger fish (largemouth) are basically not even the same species as smaller fish.

 

I catch small fish (around here 4lb and down, yay Texas) all over the place.  But the bigger fish (6+ in texas) are pretty consistently near deep water. So this complicates it because it's almost like two species. 

 

Flats, points, and weedlines near deep water have been really productive for me for bigger fish. 

As mentioned above, see if you can figure out where most of the life is in the lake - if most of the bait is 7-12 feet deep that day, see what you can find that intersects that depth and is also near deeper water. Maybe there's a 10' flat? Not a terrible place to start. 

 

How far? I do think it's relative, in small waters or a creek channel close might be no more than a cast length, sometimes even less. Bigger waters maybe two cast lengths? But more likely to be just one. But deep is relative - shad-oriented fish in a lake that goes to 30ft in a creek channel might take anything under 15 or so. Gill oriented fish in a weedy lake might be near the 10' ditch that passes for a creek channel. 

 

 

[Capt No Fish]

10 hours ago, txchaser said:

My experience so far is that the bigger fish (largemouth) are basically not even the same species as smaller fish.

 

I catch small fish (around here 4lb and down, yay Texas) all over the place.  But the bigger fish (6+ in texas) are pretty consistently near deep water. So this complicates it because it's almost like two species. 

 

Flats, points, and weedlines near deep water have been really productive for me for bigger fish. 

As mentioned above, see if you can figure out where most of the life is in the lake - if most of the bait is 7-12 feet deep that day, see what you can find that intersects that depth and is also near deeper water. Maybe there's a 10' flat? Not a terrible place to start. 

 

How far? I do think it's relative, in small waters or a creek channel close might be no more than a cast length, sometimes even less. Bigger waters maybe two cast lengths? But more likely to be just one. But deep is relative - shad-oriented fish in a lake that goes to 30ft in a creek channel might take anything under 15 or so. Gill oriented fish in a weedy lake might be near the 10' ditch that passes for a creek channel. 

 

 

Yes my lake is highly shad oriented.  But this starts to put in to perspective that near deep water is with in say 70 yards or so if I was to take the 2 casting lengths into consideration.

[Catt]

14 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

 I’m convinced that I need to try to figure out the Shad rules.

 

 

When ya done with part 1 read part 2

[Capt No Fish]

17 hours ago, A-Jay said:

I agree with @Choporoz

In that I stopped believing in and even looking, for hard & fast bass fishing rules.

The last one I was a staunch believer in seems to have gone right out the window.

So everything's up for grabs for me at this point.

However, we have to start somewhere, so I'm OK with calling what follows 'generalizations'

rather than rules.

So what's 'near deep water' mean ?

No way to offer an actual unit of measure on this deal but I can get with this . . . . 

The 'distance' bass might be from 'deep water' can be dependent on:

The season; early & late (cooler water in other words) sort of expect them to be closer to it.

Warmer water periods might see them willing to venture a bit farther from it to eat and even hang out a while.

Water Clarity could play a role - regardless of the season, clearer water could see them holding

& feeding closer to it.  While more turbid deals might offer them enough security to leave the depths a bit further behind and get all up in the skinny stuff.

The Presence of cover: most every bass head on the planet knows that shallow weeds & cover provide a safe haven for bait & bass.  And if there's enough cover to give them 'a route' straight to the shallow food from the deep, they'll probably use it.  

Low Light / night time; this one can be tricky but 'generally speaking', this may be the universal 'go to' for most every bass maniac.  Fish will often go places and travel distances to eat that they will not do any other time of the day #coverofdarkness.

Bass like 'edges' and bottom color & composition changes as well as 'something' to hold on.  Often doesn't need to be much or it can be pretty massive.  Again, not a hard & fast rule, as there are big bass taken off 'nothing banks' and open flats all the time.  We may never know exactly what that's all about but it happens. 

The dreaded boating traffic and even fishing pressure can make bass a little wary and somewhat unwilling to venture away from the security of the depths.

Finally, I can only go by what I've experienced. 

And when I think about & look back at many of my productive fish catching areas,

at any given point, at least some of this plays a role in my results.

Duplicating it on new and especially Big Water can be a daunting task.  

Either way, if you figure out a short cut, please fill me in on it.

Otherwise, my search continues . . . . 

Good Luck

A-Jay

 

 

 

Thanks Ajay, this is some really great information for me to process.  Yes generalization is fine with me.  I am just looking for something to take the overwhelmingness down a little while I learn and gain some experience.  I don't have many numbers days but I am at least catching 1 each trip for the most part.  

 

What I have extrapolated from your post, Choporoz and txchaser is that when I hear someone talk about near deep water and where to look at "near" deep water within 70 - 100 yards of structure or cover.

1 minute ago, Catt said:

 

 

When ya done with part 1 read part 2

Thanks Catt!

[Tennessee Boy]

6 hours ago, Catt said:

 

 

When ya done with part 1 read part 2

I’ve read this before.  I think you recommend it previously.  It’s kind of a traditional take on the “Shad rules” and what I’ve always assumed the Shad were doing.   After I got FFS,  I noticed that the Shad in the lakes I fish don’t know these rules.  ☹️

[Bankc]

Look for steep transitions, and fish all around the transition.  Fish the shallow part, the deep part, and the transition itself.  How deep is relative.  How far away is relative.  Don't focus on absolutes.  Focus on what that body of water, or if it's a large body of water, what that area of the water has available.  Then look for the "best" spots in that area according to the rules you've learned.  

 

Remember, the bass in the lake only know the environment they've grown up in.  They don't have a concept for how much different it could get on another lake.  And if it's a big lake, chances are that they haven't explored it all.  They're not migratory animals.  So try not to approach the lake with the mindset of a human who has all of this information.  Instead, approach it with the mindset of a fish.  You're looking for the best available spots, not the best possible.  

[softwateronly]

2 hours ago, Capt No Fish said:

Thanks Ajay, this is some really great information for me to process.  Yes generalization is fine with me.  I am just looking for something to take the overwhelmingness down a little while I learn and gain some experience.  I don't have many numbers days but I am at least catching 1 each trip for the most part.  

 

 

Something that worked for me is breaking a body of water down to a manageable chunk that I could work over 4-5 times in a row, and continually come back to as I expanded patterns and learned more.  I fish small lakes compared to most on here, like 75 acres and 325 acres, so I can only guess how daunting figuring out some big water can be.  I picked a section that had the geography and depth to support the spawn and the closest deep water to that area and spent time on it.  Over a short period of time I learned there can be a lot of dead water.  Over a longer period of time, I learned that the water I thought was dead is in fact holding fish but they are not always active.  Spending time on this smaller chunk of water over years has given me insights into the ebbs and flows of seasons, water temps, water levels, fishing pressure, fish migration, and even bite windows.  If you have electronics, finding the shad would be my priority.  If you don't, structure, cover, and bird watching would guide me the most.

 

scott

 

 

[Pat Brown]

I like banks and offshore structure with a steep incline any time of year and at virtually any depth.  Steep inclines seem to attract bass and even more so when they have cover.

 

One lake I fish, the upper end is a huge muddy flat that's all about 1 ft deep and then there's a bridge connecting it to the rest of the lake where it's 7 ft deep directly under the bridge.  The drop from 1 to 7 ft has lots of brush and stumps and rock and hold lots of big fish and bait year round and they move up and down in that small area where 7 ft is "deep" relative to that end of the lake and what fish there experience seasonally.

 

In the middle, 17 ft is the deepest water and there are ledges and offshore sandbars where you'll be casting to stumps and brush piles in 4.5 ft that's a few yards away from 17 ft deep water.  These areas tend to hold big fish and bait schools year round and fish move up and down on structure to feed for all sorts of reasons that change with conditions and seasons.

 

Really I'd just get some way of mapping depth or find a bathymetric map online to aid you or start dragging a Carolina rig Round and count it down on casts and you'll start to figure it out.

 

Good luck!

[king fisher]

    I fish a lake that is deep at one end and shallow in the other end.  Baby bass are everywhere at all times, but big bass are in specific places with the dominating factor being water level.   Water temp. varies very little, and clarity is a main factor, but is dependent on the water level.

    In the spring and early summer when the water is low, the big bass are all in the deep end because the shallow end is completely dry.  Most of the big bass suspend in large trees in the deepest portion of the lake.  Some are on humps in 20 feet of water and a few are on steep points.

       When the rain comes and floods the lake, all the big bass move to the shallow end as far away from the deep water as they can get.  The first time I fished the lake at flood level, I assumed the bass would still be in the deep end, only pushed up in to the newly submerged vegetation along the bank.  I didn't see any reason why they would leave that end with deeper water close by, when they could travel a short distance and be able to hunt and hide in nice green flooded vegetation, which they hadn't seen in months near to where they already were.

      While launching my kayak a fellow kayak angler told me to go to the far end of the lake and fish the flooded hay flat.  I asked him why, and he told me the giant bass ate frogs at the far end.  I thanked him for the advice and started fishing the flooded grass at the deep end of the lake.

       At the end of the day I had zero bass over 2 pounds and eventually pedaled all the way to the far end of the lake.  The water for the last half mile of the lake was 6 feet or less deep.  I found the other angler and he was excited to show me pictures of his bass.  He had landed multiple big bass with one over 11 pounds.  He had also lost many more, and even lost one breaking his rod horsing a giant out of the grass.   All the bass were caught in 3 foot or less of water a half mile away from any water over 6 feet deep.  He had the greatest bass fishing day of his life, and I had the worst day I ever had on that lake.  I told him I hadn't had any luck, he laughed and said I told you they eat frogs at the far end of the lake.  He showed me his popping frog that was all tore up and pictures of all the giant bass he caught on it.

     I wasn't surprised that the bass were in very shallow water.  After all the visibility was less than a foot, and moving to flooded grass made perfect sense.  What I didn't understand is why they would swim a mile to hang out in flooded grass when they could find the same grass a few yards away from where they had spent the past 6 months.

     I camped at the lake that night but didn't get any sleep.  The noise of the frogs at the far end of the lake was unbelievable.  That was when I finally got it through my thick stubborn head. Exactly as I had been told, the big bass were at the far end of the lake, because the frogs were at the far end of the lake.  Most of the time the answer to where the bass are is simple, but I for some unknown reason try to make it complex.   I caught many bass that next day on a buzz bait with the biggest being 9,5 pounds.  I didn't have a frog in the box but I got together with Bait Monkey when I got home and solved that problem.

      I ran in to that friendly angler that tried to give me good advice the next spring.  He was heading down to the far end of the lake.  I told him it was almost dry and even the places where he could manage to get his kayak would not hold bass.  They were all in the standing trees in deep water.   He attempted to paddled and dragg his way down the lake, He was forced to give up and left early.  On his way buy me I told him a had caught one over 10 on a square bill bounced off the tree limbs, and he said it was a fluke.  He wouldn't be back until the rains began and the fish started biting again.  I guess I am not the only thick headed stubborn fisherman on the lake.

     The bass may be deep, shallow, or in-between, but they will always be where they want to be, not where I think they should be, and sometimes the reason is so simple, all I need to do is pay attention to what my eyes and ears are telling me.

[Capt No Fish]

33 minutes ago, softwateronly said:

 

Something that worked for me is breaking a body of water down to a manageable chunk that I could work over 4-5 times in a row, and continually come back to as I expanded patterns and learned more.  I fish small lakes compared to most on here, like 75 acres and 325 acres, so I can only guess how daunting figuring out some big water can be.  I picked a section that had the geography and depth to support the spawn and the closest deep water to that area and spent time on it.  Over a short period of time I learned there can be a lot of dead water.  Over a longer period of time, I learned that the water I thought was dead is in fact holding fish but they are not always active.  Spending time on this smaller chunk of water over years has given me insights into the ebbs and flows of seasons, water temps, water levels, fishing pressure, fish migration, and even bite windows.  If you have electronics, finding the shad would be my priority.  If you don't, structure, cover, and bird watching would guide me the most.

 

scott

 

 

I am at 1400 Acres, I don't know if that is considered large.  It feel bigger due to horsepower restrictions.

 

And I guess another point that I see being commented.  Is it is an earth dam so they don't bring the water level down in the winter.  It's always at a constant.

[scaleface]

4 hours ago, Capt No Fish said:

I am just looking for something to take the overwhelmingness down a little while I learn and gain some experience. 

Most new bass anglers, me included, over-complicate this sport . Bass are every where. Just work your way along the shore and you will be fishing where bass are. 

[Reel]

I'll try to give answers... sort of.

Something that has not been mentionned is that bass need to reproduce and that is another reason for going to shallow water.  If you take that out of the equation, depending on the location, that leaves 6 to 9 months.  

I can only talk about smallmouth.  I fish extremely clear water and I can see fish moving from deep to shallow.  What I have seen is this: 

Fish will move further when there is a transition zone that border deep water like weeds.  

Fish will move further if there is a lot of bait on the flat.

Fish will move further if they are in a group.

The last one is surprising: Fish will move further if they are not feeding but just roaming.  

 

 

[Catt]

12 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

I noticed that the Shad in the lakes I fish don’t know these rules.

 

No fish do ?

 

Many angles myself included believe there is a portion of the population that stays within a certain distance from the shoreline. There's also a portion of the population that never see a shoreline their entire life. And there's a portion of the population that moves between the two.

 

Recent radio telemetry studies support this. 

 

What has not been determined is at size body of water does this not hold true. 

[Troy85]

I do just about all of my bass fishing in the marshes of SE Louisiana.  If I tell someone I caught them deep, then I probably caught them in 5-6'.  I'd say 90% of my fish come from 2-4' of water.  As annoying as it makes the bass fishing learning curve, shallow/deep are a relative term to body of water and clarity. 

As far as depth changes, where I'm at, a small ditch running across a grassy pond with a depth change of 1' can make a big difference. There have been many times where I've caught fish in the trenches left by lower units that are less than 6" difference in depth from the rest of the surrounding area.

[galyonj]

On 6/20/2023 at 5:56 PM, Tennessee Boy said:

 I’m convinced that I need to try to figure out the Shad rules.

 

This is the closest thing I know of to a rule in fishing: Find the food, you'll find the bass.