Keith Poche

[Tennessee Boy]

1 hour ago, TnRiver46 said:

If you watch til the end, he says he can comment because he’s been DQd before (from the classic too). His nephew has also been DQd from an open. His point was if you break the rules, you have to accept the penalty 

I watched the whole thing and I saw that.  I’m referring to the part where he holds up the rule book with one hand and taps it with his other hand and says “it’s against the rules..  can’t go across dry ground”.  That’s not in the Opens Rule book!   He says it after a couple of minutes of preaching about the importance of knowing the rules.  Opps!  
 

Maybe the Elite Series rules are different and he got confused.  

 

Again I’m not say Poche had a right to do what he did.  I’m saying Swindle doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

[TnRiver46]

28 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

I watched the whole thing and I saw that.  I’m referring to the part where he holds up the rule book with one hand and taps it with his other hand and says “it’s against the rules..  can’t go across dry ground”.  That’s not in the Opens Rule book!   He says it after a couple of minutes of preaching about the importance of knowing the rules.  Opps!  
 

Maybe the Elite Series rules are different and he got confused.  

 

Again I’m not say Poche had a right to do what he did.  I’m saying Swindle doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

If there’s no rule about going across dry ground, then people would just trailer to another lake 

[Tennessee Boy]

2 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

If there’s no rule about going across dry ground, then people would just trailer to another lake 

In rule 15 - Towing boats on trailers during tournament hours is prohibited,  except by the direction of tournament officials.

[TnRiver46]

5 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

In rule 15 - Towing boats on trailers during tournament hours is prohibited,  except by the direction of tournament officials.

 

if you drive your boat, across the top of a road, into non tournament waters, you’ll get a DQ no matter what and G man knows that. He knows may more about tournament rules than you and me combined 

[Tennessee Boy]

23 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

 

if you drive your boat, across the top of a road, into non tournament waters, you’ll get a DQ no matter what and G man knows that 

I completely agree.  I’m just saying if you’re gonna preach from the Bible make sure you read the Bible first.

[TnRiver46]

13 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

I completely agree.  I’m just say if you’re gonna preach from the Bible make sure you read the Bible first.

Don’t be silly, he has fished a few tourneys and read a few rule books (30 years worth). I wouldn’t  go claiming he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I think BASS even wanted him to be on a rules committee once and he turned down the position

[Tennessee Boy]

2 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

Don’t be silly, he has fished a few tourneys and read a few rule books. I would go claiming he doesn’t know what he’s talking about 

He’s certainly fished more tournaments than I have and knows more about fishing than I’ll ever know but I do know how to read and he is clearly quoting a rule that does not exist.  
 

If Poche had jumped the road as a short cut to get to another part of Toledo Bend he would not have violated rule 15.  In my opinion he would still be in violation of rule 6 that states the competitors are expected to follow high standards of sportsmanship,  courtesy, safety,  and conservation.

[scaleface]

2 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

 it’s seems obvious to me that if you have to jump a road to get to some place it’s probably worth a call to see if it’s allowed.

Thats what any reasonable person would do .

[TnRiver46]

I’ve heard that next BASS event they are just going to let internet commenters be the tournament director…….. 

 

oh wait, that’s BPT ! 

[Catt]

57 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

if you drive your boat, across the top of a road, into non tournament waters

 

Keith was DQ'd for being in non tournament waters...period. 

 

From what I gleaned from he's videos, he compared it to "locking" through. Problem is when locking through, you're going from tournament waters to tournament waters. 

 

As for jumping the road that is prohibited by Texas Parks & Wildlife. The rollers are there for a reason!

 

One of the WMAs I fish it is elligal to break a limb on a tree to access an area. From a boat or on the bank. 

[AmmoGuy]

29 minutes ago, Catt said:

As for jumping the road that is prohibited by Texas Parks & Wildlife. The rollers are there for a reason!

 

Is this published somewhere? Or is it just conjecture? 

[Catt]

20 minutes ago, AmmoGuy said:

 

Is this published somewhere? Or is it just conjecture? 

 

Ya need to Google TP&W & do some research.

 

Ya think the rollers are just a suggestion?

[AmmoGuy]

37 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

Ya need to Google TP&W & do some research.

 

Ya think the rollers are just a suggestion?

 

I did.  Even specific to that WMA and Toledo. 

If you know of specific, published restrictions, just link them? 

 

[Catt]

2 hours ago, AmmoGuy said:

I did.  Even specific to that WMA and Toledo

 

No you didn't!

 

 

[AmmoGuy]

56 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

No you didn't!

 

 

 

*sigh*

 

You could just reference or link the regulation you're referring to instead of being pedantic. I did in fact research it, and this is the only published reference I've seen (and it isn't even on a TP&W website).  

 

 

Look, I think jumping the dam is dumb. I think we all agree there. 

But as someone that spends a good bit of time fishing, hunting, and recreating in National Forests and WMAs, I'm also reluctant to accept something as "prohibited" unless it is specifically noted as such by the governing/enforcing agency. 

 

 

[Catt]

15 hours ago, AmmoGuy said:

I'm also reluctant to accept something as "prohibited" unless it is specifically noted as such by the governing/enforcing agency. 

 

Pretty sure that line of thinking got Keith in trouble.

 

Visitors may access the area by vehicle as well as enter the 500 acre impoundment via a roller boat ramp which has been constructed on the 200 foot long embankment.  (800) 792-1112.

 

I guess for you that's just a suggestion!

 

Here ya go there's 10,000 results, that should keep busy.

 

https://tpwd.texas.gov/s?q=North+toledo+bend+wma+access&filter=none

[Tennessee Boy]

I listened to Luke Dunkin's podcast with Keith Poche to hear Keith's side of the store.  He said he was told that the water on the other side was legal to fish and that he was DQed because of how he got there.  He said that he had called the tournament director in a tournament last year and said he wanted to jump a road and wanted to know if the water on the other side was legal.  He said they got back to him and said the water on the other side was a private lake so he could not fish it.  He concluded from this that there was no problem with jumping a road or they would have said so initially.  I get what he's saying but I think that logic is seriously flawed.  Just because he wasn't told specifically that he couldn't jump the road doesn't make it legal.  He was told he could not do what he was wanting to do. There are grey areas and I don't think you can assume that those grey areas will always be interpreted the same in different tournaments. 

 

I expect we will see a new Keith Poche rule added in the near future.  

 

[Catt]

17 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

He concluded from this that there was no problem with jumping a road or they would have said so initially. 

 

23 hours ago, Catt said:

Visitors may access the area by vehicle as well as enter the 500 acre impoundment via a roller boat ramp

 

What part of that is open to interpretation?

[Tennessee Boy]

7 minutes ago, Catt said:

What part of that is open to interpretation?

Does “Visitors may access the area by vehicle as well as enter  the 500 acre impoundment via a roller boat ramp” exclude other reasonable options?  Can a kayaker carry his kayak across the road or does he have to use the rollers some how?  Poche did not use the rollers because he could not do so without violating tournament rules.  People have ask for evidence that jumping the road is prohibited by law.   I haven’t seen that evidence so I assume it’s not against the law.  I do think he violated tournament rules that justify his DQ.  Breaking the law is not one of them from what I’ve seen.

[scaleface]

I think BASS had to DQ him .    Jumping a boat over dry land like in a  James Bond movie is pretty reckless . It looks bad.

[RichF]

Always gonna run into gray area when you let competitors run 100s of miles away from tournament take off (Sabine and Houston, Pee Dee river, St. Lawrence/Ontario, St Claire/Erie, etc.).  Stop that and you might prevent guys from trying to alter/change boats and/or jumping roads and dams. Seems pretty simple to me.

[J Francho]

Next time there will be a "Keith Poche" rule in effect. He can hang his hat on that. 
 

I think it's kind of funny how everyone gets their panties in a bunch over stuff like this. It's all good and free advertising for his sponsors. 

[Catt]

3 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

  I haven’t seen that evidence so I assume it’s not against the law.

 

What I posted is not evidence in your opinion? 

 

3 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

 Can a kayaker carry his kayak across the road or does he have to use the rollers some how?

 

And where would these kayakers be coming from since this is a "primitive" area with no boat launches within any reasonable distance. I know kayakers can paddle long distances but I highly doubt any would be willing cross Toledo Bend to get there.

[AmmoGuy]

On 5/20/2023 at 6:14 AM, Catt said:

Here ya go there's 10,000 results, that should keep busy.

 

https://tpwd.texas.gov/s?q=North+toledo+bend+wma+access&filter=none

 

So you can't even link to anything specific to support your position?

Linking broad search results that don't apply to the discussion in question doesn't really help much. 

 

You said what he did is "illegal" (or at best prohibited), but you can't provide one single shred of official documentation that says so. 

[AmmoGuy]

On 5/21/2023 at 5:41 AM, Tennessee Boy said:

Does “Visitors may access the area by vehicle as well as enter  the 500 acre impoundment via a roller boat ramp” exclude other reasonable options?  Can a kayaker carry his kayak across the road or does he have to use the rollers some how?  Poche did not use the rollers because he could not do so without violating tournament rules.  People have ask for evidence that jumping the road is prohibited by law.   I haven’t seen that evidence so I assume it’s not against the law.  I do think he violated tournament rules that justify his DQ.  Breaking the law is not one of them from what I’ve seen.

 

No. 

Number 1, that sentence says MAY use those options to access the area. Not SHALL. 

"The word “may” is an expression of possibility, a permissive choice to act or not, and ordinarily implies some degree of discretion. This contrasts with the word “shall,” which is generally used to indicate a mandatory provision."

 

Number 2, that statement came from a private website (Toldebend.com). Not an official, TP&W, or government website/publication.  So far, there's no reason to believe it holds any legal precedence. 

 

There may very well be official publication(s) that speak specifically to the legality of crossing that dam. But they aren't easy to find if they exist. @Catt was quick to condemn the actual legality of what Poche did, so I assumed he'd be able to provide some official info to back it up. So far that hasn't been the case.  (I'm still genuinely interested to know if that info IS actually out there)