Battery Question

[dickenscpa]

I fished a kayak tournament 3/18 & 3/19 and hooked up two fish finders to one Yak Power box with three 12V 8ah SLA batteries. One battery was about a year and a half old and the other two about a year. I usually run just one graph that pulls .67 and can go forever. The second graph pulls .4 so together 1.07ah.

 

Running both ran all three batteries in parallel down EXTREMELY quickly. Turned off the smaller .4 graph and voltage jumped to about 10.5 and got me thru the day. Got home and backed over charger crushing in-line glass fuse. I had to order the weird sized fuse and it took about a week to get so it went maybe 10 days with no charge.  Repaired and fished this past Thursday and went back to just one graph that pulls .67ah. Battery dead and graph shut off at about 2 hrs. Thought maybe it didn’t fully charge. 
 

Fish today and when I turned on graph it said 13.3V. Two hours later it was dead. Both days that it died so quickly it could be turned on after a bit and would say 10.4V and go down to 8 rather quickly and shut off. Unless I went to 2D only and it would go 20-30 minutes and shut back off. 
 

Got home today and put a multi meter on all three batteries separately and all three read 12.65V, turn on graph and it said 11.5 and dropped within a minute and shut off. If I unplug power cable from graph it reads 12.65V as well.

 

Questions:

1) Are the batteries bad or the unit?

2) Connecting two graphs or going so long uncharged ruin them?

 

I know I could just buy more batteries to “see” but batteries ain’t cheap so I thought I’d ask. 
 

Sorry so long I tried to be as detailed as a woman’s mini skirt - long enough to cover the subject but short enough to stay interested. 

[Bankc]

Never run more than one battery together, either series or parallel, if they aren't of the same type, brand, and age.  What can happen is, if you have one battery that's weaker than the other, the good battery will waste electricity trying to charge the bad battery.  Only it doesn't have enough voltage to actually do so.  So you burn off electricity as heat.  It's better in that scenario to just switch out batteries as one dies down, and run one at a time.  

 

Second, if you leave a lead acid battery uncharged for a long time, the plate can undergo sulfation, which is lead sulfate crystals forming on the battery's plates.  This will reduce the battery's ability to produce the correct voltage under load.  Hence they'll die quicker.  There are chargers that have a battery repair setting that can help to remove the sulfate crystals, but they don't work all that well.  In your case, it would be better and cheaper to buy new batteries.  

There's the possibility that you've got a wiring problem.  If you have a short somewhere in the wiring, one that's not a total short where you have zero resistance between poles, that could explain why your batteries are draining faster than they should.  But, that would be rare, as usually if you get a short, it'll be near total, and then the fuse will blow or the sonar just won't turn on.  Still I would be a good idea to double check everything.  But my money is on bad batteries.  

 

And then you could have an issue with the sonar units themselves.  I highly doubt both would be faulty, so the way to check would be to just run one at a time, and see if the battery drains quickly with one, but lasts as long as it should with the other.  There's probably not much you could do if that's the problem, unless it's under warranty.  So you'd just have to do without or buy a new sonar.  

[airshot]

Just a recomendation here, about 6 years back I needed a small deep cycle battery for use with my big boom sprayer.  Ordered a Mighty Max " wheel chair" deep cycle sealed battery...less than 40 bucks shipped to my door!   This battery is the size of my atv battery, 12v 12ah rated.  Awesome battery, still going strong to this day.  I also use it to power my trolling motor on my pond jon boat.  Have used it as a backup in my atv, and as an all around general purpose 12v power source. When my grandaughters power wheel battery went bad, this was used in her toy and would run it for well over an hour, where the original battery only lasted 15-20 minutes.  You might consider one or more of these as replacements.  Often thought about putting two or three of these in a battery box to create a portable power unit.  Got mine thru Amazon and I see they are still advertised....just some food for thought....

[Tennessee Boy]

Have you tried running the graph with just one battery?

 

If not, it seems unlikely that all three batteries are bad.  One bad battery in parallel with two good ones could produce the results you are seeing.  A bad battery can show good voltage that will drop under load.   I would try each battery alone and see how long each will run your graph.  

[casts_by_fly]

TB and bankc covered it pretty well.  There is a chance you've burned them out by hooking up different batteries together.  if you have one bad battery in the batch the other batteries will be continually 'charging' it and overworking those batteries.  The voltage at the multimeter just means that what lead is in there is showing the right voltage.  That's just chemistry and if you had an ounce of lead in the same medium it would show that voltage.  The ability to deliver current is a function of how much good lead is there.  You'll hear about lead plates in batteries.  In side a lead acid battery there are sheets of lead separated by a medium (usually straight sulfuric acid).  For the same weight of lead, you can use thick sheets which will provide power over a longer time (the lead is actually removed from the sheet and put into the solution as you use the battery) or you can use thin sheets and more of them.  The former is a deep cycle, the latter is a cranking battery.  The risk is when you deplete the lead sheets too far (run it down too much in a day) the sheets are not able to reform when you put a charger on them.  This is battery degradation.  Eventually the depleted sheets will get covered in the sulfate ions and the lead in solution will drop out as lead sulfate (I think that's the right chemistry).  At that point its very hard to separate them and get the lead back on the plates.  Some chargers have 'repair' mode which is a higher than usual voltage hit to the battery to try and separate the lead sulfate.  if your charger has that mode then you can try that across all three batteries.

 

if it works, great.  Ultimately though, I think you're going to need to pick up more and/or better batteries for your use.  If you need the power of three 8 ah then you'll be a lot better off long term to get a single 20-25ah batter.  If you can swing a 15-20 ah lithium all the better.  

 

 

[dickenscpa]

I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. All three batteries are the exact same and same brand/specs but I either bought two and the third afterwards or bought one and then two afterwards so they're not the same age.

 

My Dad owned an electric and plumbing company and I grew up in electricity but it was residential and commercial and I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to batteries. I did check the wiring and feel confident there's no problem there.

 

I let the batteries charge to full and turned the graph on (the big one) this morning and it read 13.7V and within seconds dropped to 13.1 and in under 2 minutes was down to 12.5V. Unplugged that one and plugged in the smaller one and it read 13.1 and dropped to 12.4 almost immediately.

 

Checking the batteries with a multi meter without load they are all three in that 12.6V area, but with a load my meter is all over the place. 12.6 down to 8.4 and almost every number in between.

 

I didn't realize running batteries in parallel was a no no. The Yak Power box comes prewired to run three in parallel. Here's my conundrum - I've got a lot of time invested and of course money wiring everything up with Yak Power and prefer to go to a lithium battery. However, the YP charger is SLA only. The SAE end of the charger looks normal but it is a proprietary SAE end and other brands won't fit. So if I bought a proper Lithium charger it wouldn't fit the YP box port. Every time I charged my battery I would have to remove it from the hull, take the battery out and charge it separately and put everything back. Kinda defeats the purpose of the box.

One thing I forgot to add is my three batteries are the Cabela's brand $20 apiece 12V 8ah ones. I have since read mixed reviews on them.

[dickenscpa]

  On 4/3/2023 at 4:36 PM, Tennessee Boy said:

Have you tried running the graph with just one battery?

 

If not, it seems unlikely that all three batteries are bad.  One bad battery in parallel with two good ones could produce the results you are seeing.  A bad battery can show good voltage that will drop under load.   I would try each battery alone and see how long each will run your graph.  

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Yeah I tried each one separately, same result. All three act like they're the same battery all exact readings.

[Bankc]

  On 4/3/2023 at 5:20 PM, dickenscpa said:

I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. All three batteries are the exact same and same brand/specs but I either bought two and the third afterwards or bought one and then two afterwards so they're not the same age.

 

My Dad owned an electric and plumbing company and I grew up in electricity but it was residential and commercial and I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to batteries. I did check the wiring and feel confident there's no problem there.

 

I let the batteries charge to full and turned the graph on (the big one) this morning and it read 13.7V and within seconds dropped to 13.1 and in under 2 minutes was down to 12.5V. Unplugged that one and plugged in the smaller one and it read 13.1 and dropped to 12.4 almost immediately.

 

Checking the batteries with a multi meter without load they are all three in that 12.6V area, but with a load my meter is all over the place. 12.6 down to 8.4 and almost every number in between.

 

I didn't realize running batteries in parallel was a no no. The Yak Power box comes prewired to run three in parallel. Here's my conundrum - I've got a lot of time invested and of course money wiring everything up with Yak Power and prefer to go to a lithium battery. However, the YP charger is SLA only. The SAE end of the charger looks normal but it is a proprietary SAE end and other brands won't fit. So if I bought a proper Lithium charger it wouldn't fit the YP box port. Every time I charged my battery I would have to remove it from the hull, take the battery out and charge it separately and put everything back. Kinda defeats the purpose of the box.

One thing I forgot to add is my three batteries are the Cabela's brand $20 apiece 12V 8ah ones. I have since read mixed reviews on them.

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You can certainly do parallel or even series battery configurations (parallel to increase amp hours, series to increase voltage).  There are just some drawbacks to it, especially if you have one bad battery in there.  Also, though less common with parallel batteries, it's possible to have one bad battery cause an explosion when you hook up more than one, due to the heat buildup.  Not likely, but I've witnessed it before (though with alkaline batteries).  Which just goes to show that knowing better doesn't always equal doing better.  

 

But yeah, it sounds like your batteries are shot.  If you went with a lithium, you could probably buy a lithium charger and splice the SAE style adapter to the charger.  Though, I don't know about charging multiple batteries in parallel with one of those.  It might work fine, but lithium batteries have a BMS circuit (battery management system), that regulates the battery's charge and discharge to keep them safe.  Some might let you run three in parallel, and some might not.  It depends on the battery and it's BMS.  You'd want to research that before making that commitment, because there's not a universal standard there.  And you might have to contact the manufacturer, as I don't often see that information published.  

 

The cheapest solution, is to find some replacement 12v 8ah AGM batteries, or maybe a single larger battery.  And try not to drain them past halfway and never store them without at least an 80% charge.  It's good practice to always start recharging them as soon as you can.  The longer they sit uncharged, the more damage that will be done to the battery.  If you look online, you should be able to find some cheap ones.  Probably just need two, as with a 1A draw, you'll get around 8 hours off two 8Ah batteries (not draining below 50%).  Or maybe look at single 20Ah or something around that size and see if that'll fit in your box.  

[casts_by_fly]

Personally, I'd just do this and be done with it.  That's plenty of capacity based on what you're seeing/using.  You're going to spend $25 a battery for 8 cheap ah lead acid and you'll be $43 for duracells.  By the time you buy 3, you're $75-$125.  For $160 you can get the battery plus the charger.  It will fit in your box if you need to keep using it.  And if you really need to in the future you can add another of the same for 40 AH capacity.  

 

https://ampedoutdoors.com/collections/lifepo4-battery/products/20ah-lithium-battery-lifepo4?variant=43383602872551

[Alex from GA]

A riding lawn mower battery is about 30 ah and less than $50 if you have room.

[casts_by_fly]

  On 4/4/2023 at 4:32 PM, Alex from GA said:

A riding lawn mower battery is about 30 ah and less than $50 if you have room.

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also a cranking battery type.  I'd be cautious running one below 50% for the reasons in the OP.

[dickenscpa]

I called Yak Power yesterday and first off I left a VM and the tech guy called me back in under 10 minutes. Secondly he was extremely helpful and informative. Anyways I have a battery tester I can use to test under a load and didn't think to use it. I guess I assumed it was car battery only but he told me it was fine for any 12V battery.

 

His advice was one or all three batteries had went bad and he said when I hooked up multiple graphs and ran the battery dead but didn't hook it back to a charger for almost 2 weeks that was probably a death nail right there. I put all three on the tester and all three tested bad.

 

He suggested getting a quality lithium and lithium charger and splice in their end which I already happen to have one. I'll be the first to admit I'm cheap and I cheap out on batteries and it bites me and I go back and do the same thing.

[casts_by_fly]

  On 4/4/2023 at 6:21 PM, dickenscpa said:

I called Yak Power yesterday and first off I left a VM and the tech guy called me back in under 10 minutes. Secondly he was extremely helpful and informative. Anyways I have a battery tester I can use to test under a load and didn't think to use it. I guess I assumed it was car battery only but he told me it was fine for any 12V battery.

 

His advice was one or all three batteries had went bad and he said when I hooked up multiple graphs and ran the battery dead but didn't hook it back to a charger for almost 2 weeks that was probably a death nail right there. I put all three on the tester and all three tested bad.

 

He suggested getting a quality lithium and lithium charger and splice in their end which I already happen to have one. I'll be the first to admit I'm cheap and I cheap out on batteries and it bites me and I go back and do the same thing.

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fair enough.  Glad you have a resolution.  now you just need to decide how much you want to spend to fix it.  I gave my recco above but I admit its not the only option or the option for everyone.

 

Also, if you have a repair mode on your charger then I would still give that a try.  I did it last year on an 8 ah that was in an aquavue camera and it pulled it back enough to be usable.

[Tennessee Boy]

I would probably go with this battery for $70.

 

https://www.amazon.com/CHINS-LiFePO4-Battery-Protection-Perfect

 

I might even keep using the existing charger.  It might not fully charge the battery but you probably don’t need the full 20ah anyway.  If you ran the battery all the way down to where the BMS shut it down,  your existing charger probably wouldn’t be able to restart it but there are workarounds for that.  It’s a cheap battery for a lithium so it might not last more than 10 years.  You live in luxurious Lebanon Tennessee so you can probably afford to replace it when the time come. ?

[dickenscpa]

  On 4/4/2023 at 7:07 PM, Tennessee Boy said:

I would probably go with this battery for $70.

 

https://www.amazon.com/CHINS-LiFePO4-Battery-Protection-Perfect

 

I might even keep using the existing charger.  It might not fully charge the battery but you probably don’t need the full 20ah anyway.  If you ran the battery all the way down to where the BMS shut it down,  your existing charger probably wouldn’t be able to restart it but there are workarounds for that.  It’s a cheap battery for a lithium so it might not last more than 10 years.  You live in luxurious Lebanon Tennessee so you can probably afford to replace it when the time come. ?

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I see you live in Mid TN, why don't you take me and teach me how to fish!

[Tennessee Boy]

  On 4/4/2023 at 10:05 PM, dickenscpa said:

I see you live in Mid TN, why don't you take me and teach me how to fish!

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Ha ha,   I’ve lived in Wilson county for a little over two years.  I fish Old Hickory a lot but can’t say I’ve figured it out.  Maybe you can teach me how to fish it.

[dickenscpa]

  On 4/5/2023 at 12:48 PM, Tennessee Boy said:

Ha ha,   I’ve lived in Wilson county for a little over two years.  I fish Old Hickory a lot but can’t say I’ve figured it out.  Maybe you can teach me how to fish it.

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Old Slickory is rough.

[dickenscpa]

I picked up an Amp'd Outdoors Lithium and their brand charger. Much to my surprise the Amp'd Outdoor charger actually fit the Yak Power box's charger input perfectly. They both had the squared off SAE end opposed to most SAE ends having that protruded rounded end keeping them from fitting.

 

So that was a nice little bonus and one less thing I had to splice and dice. All I did was cut the F1 ends off a one of the three sets of Yak Power battery wires and splice in F2s. It charged to full capacity and everything seems to be in working order. Just need to get out on the water and make sure I can use my graph all day. If this doesn't fix it then unfortunately I may have to look at my graph closer.

[casts_by_fly]

  On 4/7/2023 at 5:07 PM, dickenscpa said:

I picked up an Amp'd Outdoors Lithium and their brand charger. Much to my surprise the Amp'd Outdoor charger actually fit the Yak Power box's charger input perfectly. They both had the squared off SAE end opposed to most SAE ends having that protruded rounded end keeping them from fitting.

 

So that was a nice little bonus and one less thing I had to splice and dice. All I did was cut the F1 ends off a one of the three sets of Yak Power battery wires and splice in F2s. It charged to full capacity and everything seems to be in working order. Just need to get out on the water and make sure I can use my graph all day. If this doesn't fix it then unfortunately I may have to look at my graph closer.

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not sure which battery you went with, but if you burn through a 20 ah lithium in a day you definitely have a problem somewhere. 

[MN Fisher]

  On 4/7/2023 at 5:59 PM, casts_by_fly said:

not sure which battery you went with, but if you burn through a 20 ah lithium in a day you definitely have a problem somewhere. 

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Ya - first thing I'd do is check for shorts.

[dickenscpa]

  On 4/7/2023 at 5:59 PM, casts_by_fly said:

not sure which battery you went with, but if you burn through a 20 ah lithium in a day you definitely have a problem somewhere. 

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I haven't had a chance to get on the water yet. I just installed and plugged everything up last night. Had the green light on the charger this morning before leaving for the office. Yeah I agree, if I still have a problem I'll have to look into the unit itself. All the wiring tests out fine.

 

I really hope I don't have a problem with my Garmin. I upgraded from a 7" screen to the 9" summer of '21 and I love the usability, simpleness and the pic quality on the Garmin but developed a problem right off the bat. They sent me a new unit in about a month but I'm out of warranty now and hope that's not an issue.

[casts_by_fly]

  On 4/7/2023 at 6:45 PM, dickenscpa said:

I haven't had a chance to get on the water yet. I just installed and plugged everything up last night. Had the green light on the charger this morning before leaving for the office. Yeah I agree, if I still have a problem I'll have to look into the unit itself. All the wiring tests out fine.

 

I really hope I don't have a problem with my Garmin. I upgraded from a 7" screen to the 9" summer of '21 and I love the usability, simpleness and the pic quality on the Garmin but developed a problem right off the bat. They sent me a new unit in about a month but I'm out of warranty now and hope that's not an issue.

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I’m sure it’s not a head unit. I’d be thinking wiring got rubbed through. I’m betting it was the battery. A 9” screen draws a good bit of current. 

[TnRiver46]

  On 4/7/2023 at 5:07 PM, dickenscpa said:

I picked up an Amp'd Outdoors Lithium and their brand charger. Much to my surprise the Amp'd Outdoor charger actually fit the Yak Power box's charger input perfectly. They both had the squared off SAE end opposed to most SAE ends having that protruded rounded end keeping them from fitting.

 

So that was a nice little bonus and one less thing I had to splice and dice. All I did was cut the F1 ends off a one of the three sets of Yak Power battery wires and splice in F2s. It charged to full capacity and everything seems to be in working order. Just need to get out on the water and make sure I can use my graph all day. If this doesn't fix it then unfortunately I may have to look at my graph closer.

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You can test the graph run time without going to the water, it’s not nearly as fun tho 

[dickenscpa]

I fished between the rain showers, kinda, not quite in between got caught about two miles out in the rain. Weatherman said rain gone at 2PM I get on the water at 2:30 and bottom drops out at 5:13. 
 

Oh well beat doing taxes and battery worked great. All back to normal. Thanks all for the insight and suggestions. 

[TnRiver46]

  On 4/9/2023 at 2:52 AM, dickenscpa said:

I fished between the rain showers, kinda, not quite in between got caught about two miles out in the rain. Weatherman said rain gone at 2PM I get on the water at 2:30 and bottom drops out at 5:13. 
 

Oh well beat doing taxes and battery worked great. All back to normal. Thanks all for the insight and suggestions. 

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I was about to say, there was no inbetween rain showers today ?. 
 

It finally quit here about 6 or so