Lithium Batteries ??????

[Dogface]

I need three batteries for two different boats and have considered switching to lithium but I find the information and actual long-term costs contradictory and confusing. While doing research I found this video on YouTube which answered a few questions but caused even more confusion.  Some of you may find this info helpful. 

 

 

[Glenn]

Ya, it's kind of the wild west right now.  I was at the Classic and saw no less than 10 different lithium battery vendors there.  Plus I've had 2 other brands reach out to me about sponsoring the forums.  Both are new to the market and made in China.  Could be fantastic brands....or not.

 

Seems the technology is rapidly evolving. So what was true a year ago may not be now. Gotta be careful about what you see, read, and hear because it could be based on obsolete info.

 

This is why I'm waiting on both buying lithium batteries for my own use and declining lithium sponsors right now.  I'm waiting for the technology to mature and the brand dust to settle.

 

 

[Tennessee Boy]

I did a lot of research before buying my first lithium last year.  I agree with everything mentioned in the video for the most part with one exception.  There is no standard for grading so one manufacturer grade B might be as good or better than another’s grade A.  I ended up buying a Battle Born.  They are a reputable US company that engineers and assembles their batteries in the US using Chinese cells.  Their batteries cost a lot more than cheap Amazon batteries.  They make better batteries for sure but that’s not really why I went with them.   If we don’t want China providing all of our stuff then we have to stop buying from them whenever possible.  Battle Born seems like the best US option for me because they are designed here,  assembled here,  but unfortunately use mostly Chinese parts. 
 

I would also add that just because you pay more doesn’t mean you are getting more.  I’ve seen no evidence that Dakota or Ionic batteries are any different than a cheap brand off Amazon.  They might be but how would you know.  Just because they cost more doesn’t mean they are better.  
 

Other than the fact that I don’t want to support China,  I would not be afraid to buy a lithium battery from Amazon.  There are people who are tearing them apart and testing them on YouTube.  This helps expose the worst offenders.  I think it’s true that the long term capacity of some of these batteries may drop due to the quality of the cells used and how well they’re matched.  I also think most consumers will never notice.

[Dogface]

2 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

 I think it’s true that the long term capacity of some of these batteries may drop due to the quality of the cells used and how well they’re matched.  I also think most consumers will never notice.

 

That's one of the takeaways I got from that video.

 

Who is going to be keeping count of 1000 cycles or 2000 cycles? If a $300 battery last half as long as a $600 it breaks even. 

[Woody B]

Buy once cry once.   Quality batteries not only use better cells the BMS is better too.   Ionic uses grade a prismatic cells and a top quality BMS.  Prismatic cells are more expensive than cylindrical cells, but they're tougher.  

[Tennessee Boy]

On 4/2/2023 at 4:03 PM, Woody B said:

Buy once cry once.   Quality batteries not only use better cells the BMS is better too.   Ionic uses grade a prismatic cells and a top quality BMS.  Prismatic cells are more expensive than cylindrical cells, but they're tougher.  

How do you know?  Who assembles Ionic batteries?  What cells do they use?  What are the specs on the BMS?  I’ve only seen one tear down of an Ionic battery and it was one of the smaller ones.  The guy did not give them a favorable review but it was mostly trivial stuff in my opinion.  They may be the best that money can buy but there is no way to know.
 

It is more expensive to use cylindrical cells but they provide redundancy.   Most batteries use 4 prismatic cells.  If one of the cells fails the battery fails.   A battery with 100+ cylindrical cells will lose some capacity if a cell fails but it will still function.

[wdp]

51 minutes ago, Dogface said:

 

That's one of the takeaways I got from that video.

 

Who is going to be keeping count of 1000 cycles or 2000 cycles? If a $300 battery last half as long as a $600 it breaks even. 

This & I’ll take it a step further. By my logic & reasoning, if the Li battery I bought for $300 has twice the lifetime as a traditional Lead acid battery that costs $150, then the cost is a wash. So the big benefit for me then becomes that the Li lasts longer for a day on the water per charge, and then there’s the major weight reduction. So far, I’ve yet to run outta juice in 8-10 hrs of fishing with heavy trolling motor use. Also my new Li battery weighs less than half that of my old Lead acid battery. 

[WIGuide]

Interesting stuff for sure and definitely some food for thought. Interesting note on how the grade B will end up lasting a long time without having issues. I generally fish over 100 days a year so to do easy math, having issues at 1,000 charging cycles with 100 recharges a year, even a cheap lie of a lithium should expect to give me 10 years of good service? If that's true, that seems pretty decent considering the neverstarts I usually run will last about 3 years before craping the bed. 

[Capt Ed]

On 4/2/2023 at 4:42 PM, Dogface said:

 

That's one of the takeaways I got from that video.

 

Who is going to be keeping count of 1000 cycles or 2000 cycles? If a $300 battery last half as long as a $600 it breaks even. 

Impulse Lithium's can be monitored on you cell phone with their bluetooth app.  It gives lots of info including how many cycles you've completed.

[CincyGus]

I have a new Tacker Targa V-19 on order that hopefully is showing up soon (6 weeks in) that I ordered Ionic batteries for and have waiting to put in once I get the boat. I got a 12v-125ah for a cranking/accessories battery and 3 12v-50ah for my Garmin Force trolling motor. I fish generally 8 hours or less as I have aback that just won't take much more of than that without making me take the next day off. So the 50ah are going to be a good fit for me I'm sure. Main factors in me making this investment were the following points:

• Not having to replace heavy lead acid batteries every 3 years or so.
• Cost should be cheaper if they do actually last 10-11 years.
• Not having battery fade during the afternoon as the lead acids trickle down in voltage as many of the windy days I fish are windy during the afternoon as summer storms build and my trolling motors getting weaker.
• Weight savings in the boat, maybe better performance in an already pretty heavy boat.
• IONIC was chosen based on a lot of negative feedback I see on some of the other brands concerning customer service if there is a problem. IONIC had some negative feedback but not near what I saw from the others. Not comfortable ordering the cheaper, amazon brands with no customer service numbers to contact. 
• Faster charging than lead acid for the week long trips I take a couple times a year. Those trips are usually a cram-fest of 5-6 hour fishing windows separated by naps and meals. Fish at dawn, eat and nap at noon, fish at 5-midnight, eat and nap and back up at 0500a.m. for as long as we can handle it so being able to charge back to full in 3-4  hours is very helpful.
• No Maint. Not having to crawl and contort my body to check and get water into batteries stuffed in tight spaces like were in my 175txw or where the TM batteries will be in my Targa will be nice. 

I get that everyone not ready to make a switch and they are certainly an investment but I've been following Lithium batteries for 6-8 years since when Battleborn was really the only highly advertised Lithium. Lithium has come down in price significantly since then and with the testing and Pro's using them, the number of reviews I've watched from just everyday Joes like us on YouTube, I felt the time was right. 

[MN Fisher]

54 minutes ago, CincyGus said:

I got a 12v-125ah for a cranking

Unless that battery has a CCA rating - I would NOT use it for cranking.

 

AH doesn't matter for cranking - CCA is what you need.

[Way north bass guy]

52 minutes ago, MN Fisher said:

Unless that battery has a CCA rating - I would NOT use it for cranking.

 

AH doesn't matter for cranking - CCA is what you need.

The ionic 125 is specifically made for cranking. Special BMS designed just for that purpose. 

[GaryH]

Ionic 125 has 900 CCA and is approved by Yamaha and Mercury for up to their 250hp 

[MN Fisher]

@Way north bass guy and @GaryH - just had to make sure...I've heard horror stories of people trying to start their motors with a Lithium battery not rated for starting...that the OP didn't state a CCA had me worried.

[gim]

Something to keep in mind here is that not every charger can be used with lithium batteries. So if you decide to upgrade to lithium batteries, you may also need to buy a new charger too.  Better check your chargers before hand.

[HenryPF]

I have to replace my agms in 2-5 years. Ill go lithium trolling/electornics with an AGM for starting. But until someone absolutely proves to me that Dakota, Battleborn, Ionic batteries are SO much better than the cheapo Amazon ones, I am going that route. The argument of "Customer Service" is pointless. Garmin and PowerPole have great customer service, but unless you need it, the point is moot. Your Ionic or whoever battery goes out during a tournament? You sure ain't getting one that day or the next.

 

The price of the Top Tier batteries are twice as expensive as anything else out there. I could replace my brand new lithiums in 5 years, but another set, and still come out ahead due to their pricing and 10 year warranty.

 

Bluetooth? Yeah it sounds nice but I can buy a $30 Wyze Cam with a 12v to USB converter and point it at my battery chargers. I don't the worth of $75+ per battery if I want to see it on the phone.

[Johnbt]

Every single time I have tried to read a little on lithium boat batteries I soon gave up after my eyes glazed over from reading a few of the google search results.

 

"What are Grade A lithium cells?

Grade A LiFePO4 battery cell is generally to make the factory using the battery cell directly place an order to the battery cell factory. The battery cell factory arranges production according to the factory's own production capacity and technical ability.Jul 13, 2021"

[Junger]

10 hours ago, HenryPF said:

The price of the Top Tier batteries are twice as expensive as anything else out there. I could replace my brand new lithiums in 5 years, but another set, and still come out ahead due to their pricing and 10 year warranty.

 

I'll probably go the cheapo Amazon route in 2 years as well, and by then they'll be the same price as the Duracell AGM 31's I got 3 years ago.

[MN Fisher]

52 minutes ago, Junger said:

 

I'll probably go the cheapo Amazon route in 2 years as well, and by then they'll be the same price as the Duracell AGM 31's I got 3 years ago.

Given how good my Mighty Max AGMs have been - when I go to Lithium, I'll keep with 'The Max'.

[Siebert Outdoors]

I have 4 Ionics  3 50 AH and and a 125 AH.  I've had the 50's for over a year now.  I ran my ghost for about 15 hrs with out charging on a local lake and I was at about 61% still.  They last a long time.  The 125 runs all of my graphs.    I charged my batteries for the second time this year.  So far I really like them.  I dont know about the cell grading and all that but for me it was worth the cost.  Ionics like many other brands have the blue tooth app that shows you the amount left. 

 

One of the biggest things I've found is there is no slow down like lead acid after hrs of use.  The Lithium runs the same the whole time.   

[TnRiver46]

Unfortunately I have plenty of time to charge my batteries and not nearly enough time to drain them so I will stick with lead 

[WIGuide]

@Siebert Outdoors was that 15 hours on straight battery power or do you have a Power Pole charge paired up with them?

[Siebert Outdoors]

Thats a rough estimate but I do not have a power pole charge.  Straight battery's.  The Ghost TM uses very little juice compared to motors that are brushed.

[CincyGus]

18 hours ago, MN Fisher said:

Unless that battery has a CCA rating - I would NOT use it for cranking.

 

AH doesn't matter for cranking - CCA is what you need.

900CCA.

[flyfisher]

Being a kayak guy weight matters so I am also on the Ionic train.  I have been using my 2-30ah wired to give me 24V for my motor for 2+ seasons now and zero complaints.  I had them in a box originally but have since moved them under my seat and have had no issues.  They are not the cheapest but they are good so far.  When I first bought them I had some issues, my own ignorance really, i emailed and the sales manager called me on a sunday to talk me through what was happening and how to fix it because i mentioned i was going trip momday and he wanted to make sure i was good.