It's Battery time !!!!

[newbiedmv]

Time to get at least one new battery. I'm running a 12/24V system with a 55 amp at 24 V  max draw on the electric motor. I usually cook a Walmart 12V deep cycle (the second biggest) every few years.

Now and then i look into the 24V lithium batteries  but discount them due to cost and the cost of the charger.

Anyone had any luck with them? I mainly cook the walmart batteries on electric only lakes drawing 20 amps or more fighting the wind getting out on in.

[70diesel]

I made the switch last fall to 3 Ionic 12v batteries. It's expensive but I got tired of going through batteries every couple of years and also having them lose power throughout the day (trolling motor slowing down b/c battery draining). Lithium batteries don't wear out as they are used, it's full power until they are out of power. Ionic batteries also have Bluetooth so you can check their power levels while using them. They have a 24v 50ah but I would go with 100ah if you fish a lot in a day. You would have to buy 2 12v 50ah batteries and that is costly so I get it. 

 https://lithiumhub.com/product/12-volt-100ah-lithium-deep-cycle-battery/

 

https://lithiumhub.com/lithium-deep-cycle-batteries/marine-batteries/

[Tennessee Boy]

A single 24v battery might work well for you.  At 24 volts it takes half as  many amps to deliver the same amount of power.   A 50ah 24 volt battery stores essentially the same amount of watt hours as a 100ah 12 volt battery.   If you’re using it on an electric only lake,  my only concern would be that when the battery’s BMS decides that the battery is dead it will shut down and you will go from almost full power to zero power.  A good battery shunt or a battery with Bluetooth would allow you to monitor the state of the battery so you don’t run out of juice a mile from the ramp.  If you find that one 24v battery is not enough power you could add a second one wired in parallel.

[TnRiver46]

My neverstarts are on the 6 year plan 

[WRB]

What type of Walmart batteries are you using wet cell? Group 27? 
12/24V system with 2 ea 12V batteries, with battery switch?

1. You shouldn’t have 2 different 12V batteries in series, both need to be the same size and age.

Tom

[newbiedmv]

8 hours ago, WRB said:

What type of Walmart batteries are you using wet cell? Group 27? 
12/24V system with 2 ea 12V batteries, with battery switch?

1. You shouldn’t have 2 different 12V batteries in series, both need to be the same size and age.

Tom

Yeah i know, i did it out of desperation and so far it's worked well. We had banks of 8 batteries at 24V at work for military apps. We always cooked the weakest battery bad to the point it was boiling with a draw of 100 amps for 30 minutes. So when the battery goes south it's gone gone gone. With the heavy draw i might just go with cranking batteries with a good reserve. Thanks. Yep type 27

[newbiedmv]

Thanks for the Amazon info. My previous source was BPS, which is incredibly expensive. 

[WRB]

Take a look at VMax Tank Marine AGM batteries.

Tom

[A-Jay]

29 minutes ago, WRB said:

Take a look at VMax Tank Marine AGM batteries.

Tom

I've been watching these for a while.

Prices have been all over the place.

But with free shipping,

this actually isn't too bad.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N5UA1YO/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3H30ATSR61H8N&psc=1

But my Blue tops are 15 lbs lighter per battery. 

A-Jay

[WRB]

The original Blue Tops, before Interstate bought them were better.

VMax Tanks are heavier for a reason.

I had 2 ea MR137-120 for 15 years in my bass boat sold in 2020, The guy

who bought my boost it is still running them!

Look for sales they always have them going on,

OP could use 2 east MR127-100 with Perko 8501 battery switch to start OB and switch to 24V for TM.

Tom

[casts_by_fly]

20 hours ago, newbiedmv said:

Yeah i know, i did it out of desperation and so far it's worked well. We had banks of 8 batteries at 24V at work for military apps. We always cooked the weakest battery bad to the point it was boiling with a draw of 100 amps for 30 minutes. So when the battery goes south it's gone gone gone. With the heavy draw i might just go with cranking batteries with a good reserve. Thanks. Yep type 27

you don’t want cranking batteries. You need deep cycle batteries. Different lead plate geometry for different purposes. 

[newbiedmv]

Ok very stupid question.

Anybody know where i can read up on lithium set ups? The battery curves, chargers, current draw monitors, reserve indicators, etc.... I've seen some very elaborate set ups but no info, just lots of displays and such.

 

I'm taking a guess this is all available as it was for my old works batteries (lithium smart batteries for special forces)

 

I think i might spend the money if i can calculate out the minimum amp hours to get back in. The cliff drop off at the end (2 miles 10mph headwind 30-40 amp draw to get back in) has me concerned. When it's dead it's dead.

 

I went to BPS and they knew 90% less than i do, which is nothing.

I still need to look at the sites provided with my laptop.

Thanks to all

[GaryH]

Give Lithium hub a call.  They will walk you through the process and answer any questions you have.

[casts_by_fly]

I run amped batteries.  They have a decent faq page you can start with. 

 

https://ampedoutdoors.com/pages/faq

 

The main thing is understanding just how much power you’re drawing.  If you’re pulling 20 amps at 24V, that’s a lot of capacity needed if you’re not recharging on the water. You’d get about 2 hours of that draw out of a 50ah 24v lithium. You will be able to take a lithium down to 10%, maybe more, maybe less depending on the BMS.  For planning a setup I would plan to 20% so you always have a little reserve left. Of course if you want to go bigger you can, the only difference is money.

 

That said, I don’t think you’re drawing 20 amps the full time. I don’t know which motor you have so I’ll use mine as an example. I’m in an autopilot kayak, 42 lb thrust 12v with spot lock. I’m pulling 32A on max setting to hit right about 4 mph. That would translate to 16A on a 24V setup.  That’s my transit speed and power. Actual fishing current draw is negligible. With a 10 mph wind and chop I’ll be on a setting 2, maybe 3 which is drawing low single digit amps. If there is negligible wind I don’t even factor the fishing current draw into my day. It just how far I want to run.  I have an 80 ah and I’ve never burned it out in a day. I’ve taken it down to 9 or 12% (I forget which) once when I fished from 4am to 4pm on the big lake on a windy day. I think I covered 15 miles that day.  You can save battery by turning down the motor one or two notches. If I want max range, I can run it on 8 instead of 10 and it draws 25% less power but you only lose about 10% speed. 

you can Google the voltage curves for lithium vs lead acid. Long story short, they will output at 12.5-13V from full to about 10% (or wherever the bms is set) and then shut off.  Lead acid will start at 12.7 I think it is and then steadily drop over use. That means lithium will feel like a freshly charged lead battery all day whereas the lead will steadily slow down. 
 

plenty of chargers available for 12v but just get a noco genius. Great chargers. Work for any battery. Small footprint. If you go a 24v battery then fewer options. Amped includes the charger with the battery. 
 

Some batteries have built in Bluetooth monitors. Some have digital displays. You can add a shunt style meter to lithiums for cheap. That’s what I have on mine and it will show voltage, capacity (absolute a percentage left) and current draw. I wouldn’t leave home without it. 

 

 

[Tennessee Boy]

I’ve thought about what I would do in your situation.  There are so many options.  A single 24V battery was mentioned earlier.  I looked into it and there are no low cost 24v lithium batteries.  A 50ah 24V Ionic is $890 compared to their 100ah 12V which is $699.  Both batteries provide the same amount of watt hours of power.  There are also no cheap 24V batteries on Amazon.  This makes sense now that I think about it.  At the high end, it’s different.  Battle Born sells their 24V 50ah battery for $849 which is actually a little cheaper than their 12V 100ah which is $874.  These batteries have 120 small cylindrical cells so the only difference between 12V and 24V is the way the cell banks are wired.   Virtually all of the lower cost brand 12V batteries have 4 prismatic cells wired in series so stepping up to 24V means doubling the number of cells.  This obviously adds to the cost.

 

Going to 24V would increase your performance.  The cheapest way to do that would be two 12 volt batteries in series.  You can get two Chins 12V 50ah batteries from Amazon for $210 each.  

If two batteries is not an option then I would go with a cheap Amazon 12V 100ah battery which can be had for around $430.  

 

A battery shunt can help you manage your battery usage so you don’t get stranded.  Another option would be a small “emergency” battery.  A 12V 20ah Chins battery is $70 on Amazon.  It wouldn’t take much space and should have enough power to get you home if your main battery died.  It’s maximum power draw is probably around 20 amps so you wouldn’t be able to run at top speed with it.

 

[casts_by_fly]

2 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

I’ve thought about what I would do in your situation.  There are so many options.  A single 24V battery was mentioned earlier.  I looked into it and there are no low cost 24v lithium batteries.  A 50ah 24V Ionic is $890 compared to their 100ah 12V which is $699.  Both batteries provide the same amount of watt hours of power.  There are also no cheap 24V batteries on Amazon.  This makes sense now that I think about it.  At the high end, it’s different.  Battle Born sells their 24V 50ah battery for $849 which is actually a little cheaper than their 12V 100ah which is $874.  These batteries have 120 small cylindrical cells so the only difference between 12V and 24V is the way the cell banks are wired.   Virtually all of the lower cost brand 12V batteries have 4 prismatic cells wired in series so stepping up to 24V means doubling the number of cells.  This obviously adds to the cost.

 

Going to 24V would increase your performance.  The cheapest way to do that would be two 12 volt batteries in series.  You can get two Chins 12V 50ah batteries from Amazon for $210 each.  

If two batteries is not an option then I would go with a cheap Amazon 12V 100ah battery which can be had for around $430.  

 

A battery shunt can help you manage your battery usage so you don’t get stranded.  Another option would be a small “emergency” battery.  A 12V 20ah Chins battery is $70 on Amazon.  It wouldn’t take much space and should have enough power to get you home if your main battery died.  It’s maximum power draw is probably around 20 amps so you wouldn’t be able to run at top speed with it.

 

this is basically where I settled as well. I don’t know if he can use a 12v setup, but based on all of the info I’d get a pair of either 60 or 80 ah lithiums. 

 

I also did the spare battery thing, though what I actually did was up spec my fish finder battery to a 30 ah for a just in case scenario. I actually had to use it this year first trip because I don’t think I charged my batteries fully ahead of time. 

[airshot]

Whew....after reading all that, why would anyone think that moving to all electric vehicles will work ??  Just an example of the issues we will be faced with when we start driving battery powered vehicles !!!

[casts_by_fly]

15 minutes ago, airshot said:

Whew....after reading all that, why would anyone think that moving to all electric vehicles will work ??  Just an example of the issues we will be faced with when we start driving battery powered vehicles !!!

actually, battery powered vehicles is a lot simpler topic in this regard. You’re not choosing the battery for the vehicle. You aren’t determining what capacity of battery will give you what range. The vehicle has a range and it either works for you or it doesn’t. In this case, there are multiple options depending how you fish and what you want to spend. You can pick a bigger battery, you can add another in parallel, etc. but that’s not the topic of this thread. 

[newbiedmv]

I figured out a test jig. Find the wire loses. Hook up an old cheap voltmeter and with a calculator determine the draw.

Go out and run the lead acids dead a few times @ 》20 A , 10A and get a rough curve.

If i was still working i could do it at work with a programmable electronic load.

I've used the outboard once when conditions were really bad. I got a ticket and had to go to court. It was dismissed, but still to much of a hassle. it's  very young  park rangers, who don't know you can't paddle in a 1200 lb boat with one oar for 2 miles in a headwind and they don't care.

 

Thanks for all the info