Its A Rivian!!!

[Darth-Baiter]

i didnt get a tax break on my Tesla.  i bought inbetween the chance.  they stopped the incentive and we needed a car.  we buy car, and they start up incentive again.  fUN!

 

hahah..  i dont worry about the tax incentive people get or dont get.  i do know the Gov bailed out the regular car manufacturers plenty of times, and that dont bother me either. 

[casts_by_fly]

24 minutes ago, the reel ess said:

Found it. It's not the cost for you to drive it. It's the total operating cost of an EV. this says $17/gallon. I've seen higher claims though.  https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy-environment/study-fueling-electric-vehicles-17-gallon 

 

Mind you, 92K is already high cost compared to practically, any ICE in the same class. So it immediately costs you tens of thousands more to drive it than a comparable ICE. Admittedly, I don't know what class of luxury your Tesla is in or comparable to.

 

 

On first brush, I have some concerns on the study.  The tone seems as if they are trying to push an agenda, not do an objective analysis.  Their funding is partly paid by the oil and gas industry.  And the $17 per gallon figure is considering a lot of factors to sensationalize the number (that's a LOT more than gasoline!) but that need to be considered in a ICE analysis as well.  Its a 20 page study so I'll take a little time to read it before I draw any full conclusions.  

 

The model X is a mid/full size luxury SUV depending what you're comparing.  Just looking at interior/storage space and performance it is comparable to a full size (like a tahoe) but if you use exterior dimensions its more like a mid-size.  In terms of features and performance, 0-60 in 4 seconds, full self driving, full leather and wood trim, premium sound and navigation systems, and the equivalent of a full moon roof between the front window and gull wing door roof windows.  Because I know mercedes SUVs (we had 2 before we moved back here) it fits between the GLC and the GLE.  The top of the line GLC coupe comes in around $80k I think.  That's for an AMG 43 which is pretty close in performance, though the total storage space in the GLC is a bit less than the tesla.  Our 2019 also had a third row of seats (our 2022 doesn't).  The GLE SUV most comparable in performance is the AMG63 which comes in at $127k.  A new Tesla is $120k so that indicates the range they are targetting.  I would say that a mercedes is more refined in some aspects and if your goal is the most luxurious car then the tesla wouldn't be at the top of the class- its very good but not the top.

[the reel ess]

1 hour ago, casts_by_fly said:

 

On first brush, I have some concerns on the study.  The tone seems as if they are trying to push an agenda, not do an objective analysis.  Their funding is partly paid by the oil and gas industry.  And the $17 per gallon figure is considering a lot of factors to sensationalize the number (that's a LOT more than gasoline!) but that need to be considered in a ICE analysis as well.  Its a 20 page study so I'll take a little time to read it before I draw any full conclusions.  

 

The model X is a mid/full size luxury SUV depending what you're comparing.  Just looking at interior/storage space and performance it is comparable to a full size (like a tahoe) but if you use exterior dimensions its more like a mid-size.  In terms of features and performance, 0-60 in 4 seconds, full self driving, full leather and wood trim, premium sound and navigation systems, and the equivalent of a full moon roof between the front window and gull wing door roof windows.  Because I know mercedes SUVs (we had 2 before we moved back here) it fits between the GLC and the GLE.  The top of the line GLC coupe comes in around $80k I think.  That's for an AMG 43 which is pretty close in performance, though the total storage space in the GLC is a bit less than the tesla.  Our 2019 also had a third row of seats (our 2022 doesn't).  The GLE SUV most comparable in performance is the AMG63 which comes in at $127k.  A new Tesla is $120k so that indicates the range they are targetting.  I would say that a mercedes is more refined in some aspects and if your goal is the most luxurious car then the tesla wouldn't be at the top of the class- its very good but not the top.

The agenda they're pushing is that hybrids work right now. If every car owner in America drove a hybrid tomorrow, the grid would not care. Power outages would not affect driveability. If every person drove an EV tomorrow, most wouldn't get to work and back many days.

[casts_by_fly]

13 minutes ago, the reel ess said:

The agenda they're pushing is that hybrids work right now. If every car owner in America drove a hybrid tomorrow, the grid would not care. Power outages would not affect driveability. If every person drove an EV tomorrow, most wouldn't get to work and back many days.

 

I would agree with that assessment.  We have a significant infrastructure built up around liquid fuel for cars and less so on electric.  The US is about 5% EV so pulling 20x the amount of power from the grid would be a jump for sure.  The RamCharger or a PHEV mitigates a lot of that issue until the electric charging network and power grid catch up.

[the reel ess]

39 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

 

I would agree with that assessment.  We have a significant infrastructure built up around liquid fuel for cars and less so on electric.  The US is about 5% EV so pulling 20x the amount of power from the grid would be a jump for sure.  The RamCharger or a PHEV mitigates a lot of that issue until the electric charging network and power grid catch up.

I think the PHEV would be the best of all worlds. I'd prefer one.

 

[TnRiver46]

57 minutes ago, the reel ess said:

The agenda they're pushing is that hybrids work right now. If every car owner in America drove a hybrid tomorrow, the grid would not care. Power outages would not affect driveability. If every person drove an EV tomorrow, most wouldn't get to work and back many days.

Our grid couldn’t handle Christmas last year 

[gim]

25 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

Our grid couldn’t handle Christmas last year 

I can positively say that my wife contributes to that heavily.  There's already 5 trees with lights up in my house, plus a wreath, and another string of lights.  I am really beginning to hate this holiday.

[throttleplate]

On 11/12/2023 at 10:19 AM, the reel ess said:

EVs do in fact lower greenhouse gas emissions.

 

Forgetting all the heavy mining equipment using diesel to rape the earth of the metals and then all the energy used to crush the materials and make into usable battery components. The battery factories themselves are huge consumers of energy to operate.

We the people are being scammed. Just like ethonal fuel made of corn is a scam as the diesel used to plant it, fertilize it, harvest it, truck it and refine it is a negative gain.

[the reel ess]

13 minutes ago, throttleplate said:

 

Forgetting all the heavy mining equipment using diesel to rape the earth of the metals and then all the energy used to crush the materials and make into usable battery components. The battery factories themselves are huge consumers of energy to operate.

We the people are being scammed. Just like ethonal fuel made of corn is a scam as the diesel used to plant it, fertilize it, harvest it, truck it and refine it is a negative gain.

You stopped short of reading my entire post. I did not forget that. I said the acquisition and disposal of battery materials is problematic. I try to see the whole picture and not cherry pick the points I want to make.

[throttleplate]

4 hours ago, the reel ess said:

You stopped short of reading my entire post. I did not forget that. I said the acquisition and disposal of battery materials is problematic. I try to see the whole picture and not cherry pick the points I want to make.

I read the whole thing, i just like my explanation better.😀

[Chowderhead]

On 11/11/2023 at 5:28 PM, gimruis said:

Hey @Chowderhead look what my wife and I picked up today.

@gimruis That is great - looks awesome! We’re still loving our Venza and now up to 43.5 MPG after 9,000+miles. 

[gim]

On 11/13/2023 at 3:07 PM, throttleplate said:

 

Forgetting all the heavy mining equipment using diesel to rape the earth of the metals and then all the energy used to crush the materials and make into usable battery components. The battery factories themselves are huge consumers of energy to operate.

We the people are being scammed. Just like ethonal fuel made of corn is a scam as the diesel used to plant it, fertilize it, harvest it, truck it and refine it is a negative gain.

While I don't disagree with any of this you've stated, one could argue we've already been doing that for many years.  Oil extraction and use is "raping the earth" just the same as taking valuable minerals is from it.  The difference is that fossil fuel burning creates an abundance of carbon in the atmosphere and battery usage does not.  The processes for extracting them are both energy intensive, yes, but the side effect of using one versus the other is vastly different from a pollution stand point.

 

I do think that the future of transportation and energy consumption is with EVs, but we can't go to it in a few years directly.  The infrastructure isn't there yet, clearly.  That's why I chose to go with a hybrid vehicle.  Plus living in the north with a cold climate doesn't seem to mix as well with sole battery usage.

 

I see a lot of smaller 2-stroke engines being replaced nowadays with battery operation.  Weed whips, blowers, even lawn mowers and snow blowers.  Small 2 stroke engines are a pain in the rear to maintain.  A battery is maintenance free.  That alone is a big selling point for a lot of people.

[MN Fisher]

26 minutes ago, gimruis said:

The processes for extracting them are both energy intensive, yes, but the side effect of using one versus the other is vastly different from a pollution stand point.

Except where is that electric power to charge the EV coming from?

 

They're actually tearing down dams

Solar and Wind aren't anywhere near capacity - people don't want that 'eyesore' in their backyard

Geothermal hasn't been developed

The 'No-Nukes' crowd makes that a non-starter - (Put one in my backyard, I'd love it)

 

So that means burning MORE fossil fuel to generate the electricity. And given the inefficiency of generation and transmission - you're actually putting MORE carbon in the air running that EV than if you just got a decent MPG 'gas guzzler'.

[gim]

12 minutes ago, MN Fisher said:

Except where is that electric power to charge the EV coming from?

Mine isn't a full EV.  I don't charge it.  Its a hybrid that's half EV and half gasoline.  Running the engine sends power back to the EV portion.  It actually gets better mileage city driving than it does on the highway too because it uses the EV mode in the city when you constantly stop and go.

 

It was either get an SUV that gets better mileage or get an SUV that has a bigger fuel tank.  Its the miles per tank that sold me on this one.

[MN Fisher]

7 minutes ago, gimruis said:

Mine isn't a full EV.

I was talking in general about the full electrics - Teslas, Honda Prologue, Chevy Bolt, etc

[throttleplate]

I am good with hybrids, learn here how the toyota system works.

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=how+do+toyota+hybrids+create+electricty#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:9b440050,vid:UrSKcEe4u0w,st:0

[ATA]

This rivians are good fancy and clean trucks till you want to haul something, Than you might get around 110 miles out of it.

[slonezp]

On 11/12/2023 at 2:07 PM, Darth-Baiter said:

no way.  we charge all the time at home.  comparing cost, the EV is about 30% of what gas would be.  

I call BS. How much is your time worth? How much did you pay to have a charging station installed in your home? How much "road tax" are you paying since it's not being paid at the pump? 

[casts_by_fly]

18 minutes ago, slonezp said:

I call BS. How much is your time worth? How much did you pay to have a charging station installed in your home? How much "road tax" are you paying since it's not being paid at the pump? 

don’t know about him, but a wall charger is $500 plus someone to install it. I think we paid $1400 total in 2019 and won’t have to change it. We’ve saved that much just this year vs gas. 
 

not sure why my time is factored in. We charge at home most of the time so it’s charging while I sleep. Yes, long trips you have to consider charging time but for a 350 mile trip each way, we have to charge twice on the way there and once on the way home. Two of the stops are about 8 minutes- just enough time to get out, go pee, grab a snack, and get going again. It’s about the same as if you get gas.  The longer stop on the way there is because we don’t have a good charger at my in-laws so we over charge before we get there so we have enough to get halfway home. 
 

there is no extra road tax and some things are free or discounted where an ICE has to pay like HOV lanes/toll roads. In some places registration is cheaper also. 

[FishTank]

A guy in my neighborhood has a Rivian and two Teslas. He uses the Rivian to drop off students at college with all their junk. He charges $500 a trip. He can get two trips on a full charge from Indianapolis to Bloomington, Lafayette, or Muncie. That's $1000+ a day and he does this almost year round. One of the Tesla is used to pick up people with special needs. I don't know what he charges but he gets payed a lot to do this but he does some stuff for free as well. Both vehicles have clocked a ton of mileage and have had no issues.

 

The other Tesla is super fast. Not sure of the model but its the one the ludicrous speed. 

[casts_by_fly]

12 hours ago, FishTank said:

A guy in my neighborhood has a Rivian and two Teslas. He uses the Rivian to drop off students at college with all their junk. He charges $500 a trip. He can get two trips on a full charge from Indianapolis to Bloomington, Lafayette, or Muncie. That's $1000+ a day and he does this almost year round. One of the Tesla is used to pick up people with special needs. I don't know what he charges but he gets payed a lot to do this but he does some stuff for free as well. Both vehicles have clocked a ton of mileage and have had no issues.

 

The other Tesla is super fast. Not sure of the model but its the one the ludicrous speed. 

 

Depending on the age, it could be a model S (sedan) or a model x (SUV) with either the ludicrous speed (older version which they have killed in the software settings) or the plaid (newer, as of 2020 I think).  Either way, its basically the same thing- 0-60 in about 2.7 or a bit faster.

[Choporoz]

On 11/16/2023 at 9:32 PM, slonezp said:

How much "road tax" ...... since it's not being paid at the pump? 

That might make for some interesting in depth journalism.   No way that states (and some counties and cities) are prepared to lose big billion dollar chunks of gas tax quickly.  If state governments aren't actively opposing EV's, I'd bet they're doing it sneaky-like.  I don't see how you can easily shift that tax burden to 'all' electricity consumers...though maybe they will.  We're going to have to see some fundamental changes before too very long

[Darth-Baiter]

On 11/16/2023 at 6:32 PM, slonezp said:

I call BS. How much is your time worth? How much did you pay to have a charging station installed in your home? How much "road tax" are you paying since it's not being paid at the pump? 

its just math.  i'll do the most expensive option first.  using a Tesla Supercharger.  no need to call BS.  maybe just say your sceptical? 

 

i just charged my Work Tesla.  i went from 40 mile range remaining and charged it to 300 miles.

cost me just shy of $12.  (not sure if we get a discount since we are huge).  so 260 miles for $12.  

take my Tacoma.  using an unrealistic 20mpg.  260 miles will take me 13 gallons.  13x$5.25 = $68ish.

12/68 = roughly 18%

 

our utiltiy tracks our usage.  it shows our weekly EV charging is $23 and we do about 350-400 miles.  all this is for a week.  i pay $50 to buy half a tank of gas for my tacoma.   10 gallons.  200 miles on a good day.

 

i paid $500 for the charging station.  you are grasping at straws.  i can tell you an oil change, timing belt, coolant, etc for the TESLA is $0.  i just change the oil on both of my toyota Tacomas and it was $100.  every 5000 miles.  you can get all nitpicky on the minutia.  but why?  why give a rat-ass about someone else's business?  you dont like EV?  there is a perfectly EASY solution.  dont buy one.  

 

how much is my time worth.  hahahaha..my wife and i are sleeping when our car charges.  that is the exact definition of efficiency and value to using our time.  

 

i read a book once.  i was shocked at the catalyst that cause us as a country, to move towards the horseless carriage, and away from Horses.  trust me, there was similar pushback like there is today. i'll let you find the answer yourself.  but the parallel didnt escape me.  change is hard.  very hard.  expecially for me.  but i mitigate by only doing what i want.  i dont worry jackchit about what everyone else does if it doesnt affect me.  

[J._Bricker]

In response to @slonezp and @Choporoz California is proposing to end our “Freeway” system and look into charging by the mile in 2035, which will coincide with the State ending the sale of new internal combustion engine vehicles.

*without getting too in-depth our high occupancy lanes (car pool) have evolved into EV and now toll lanes with a “Fast Trak” electronic pass. The “Fast Trak” pass also is how bridge tolls are collected in the northern part of the state.

 

 

[casts_by_fly]

2 hours ago, Choporoz said:

That might make for some interesting in depth journalism.   No way that states (and some counties and cities) are prepared to lose big billion dollar chunks of gas tax quickly.  If state governments aren't actively opposing EV's, I'd bet they're doing it sneaky-like.  I don't see how you can easily shift that tax burden to 'all' electricity consumers...though maybe they will.  We're going to have to see some fundamental changes before too very long

 

Funny enough, you're not the first person with that thought.  A few states have talked about changing the way registrations are paid to include per mile charges.  States have started dropping or reducing the sales tax benefits and thresholds for EVs as more are adopted.  Certainly there will be more change as more of the cars on the road become EVs and Hybrids.  I don't know what the critical adoption percentage is but I'm sure some states are over it and some are no where close to it.

 

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/states-losing-gas-tax-revenue-with-ev-adoption