Are most people opposed to live sonar?

[GoneFishingLTN]

19 hours ago, Catt said:

Around here it's 60-40

60% have it, with many saying they use it in situations. 

 

Opposed?

 

It's here ?

I'm not quite sure on your tournament situation I'm assuming you don't fish many any more because you've been there done that type thing. But if you are or was still fishing tournaments would you put it on your boat?

[AlabamaSpothunter]

2 hours ago, JediAmoeba said:

Watch Milliken - he will sell little baits while filming a video and trying to pass off dinks as monsters when he clearly isn't all that enthusiastic about it. But he's catching fish and for a lot of people, that's all they want.

He caught a 60lb bag on film.

 

I can't imagine what your definition of a trophy is if those are dinks.  

[Kelvin]

I'm a fan of Livescope. 

 

It cuts through myths that fisherman have peddled for years.  I'd rather not fill my head with that kind of nonsense.  Watching fish in real time react either for or against a lure makes for a better fishermen.  Still have to find the fish is what I'm most concerned with at the moment.  In Florida FFS doesn't make that big of a difference yet unless there is deeper clearer water.  

 

 

 

 

[InfantryMP]

26 minutes ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

He caught a 60lb bag on film.

 

I can't imagine what your definition of a trophy is if those are dinks.  

 

He also just placed 5th in the first BASS open, with no professional level tournament experience. 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

1 minute ago, InfantryMP said:

 

He also just placed 5th in the first BASS open, with no professional level tournament experience. 

Absolutely, being an Alabama lake I was watching closely.   

 

He's a super impressive Bass angler, not just a fantastic FFS user.   I'm learning so much stuff from him, and then Matt and Tim from TacticalBassin.    Wish I would have found Ben's stuff earlier.  

[Deleted account]

11 hours ago, Cdn Angler said:

How's a pro going to sell those if they no longer use them?

 

Do you honestly think Brady and Steph eat Subway?...

[Catt]

1 hour ago, GoneFishingLTN said:

But if you are or was still fishing tournaments would you put it on your boat?

 

Probably not...maybe ?

 

There are plenty tournaments on Toledo & Rayburn that are still being won without it. 

[InfantryMP]

I also think of this when I hear about the FFS debate.

 

A mechanic can spend hours diagnosing a vehicle, messing with this or that trying to complete the job. A lot of old school mechanics are very good at this based on experience and trial and error. With no electronic scanners to help them out.

 

Now mechanics, with newer vehicles can  "scan" for codes, and it tells you almost exactly what is wrong with the vehicle. It saves time, and potentially money for the shop to be able to diagnose and fix it issues more efficiently. All of this comes down to the business of making money for the shop. 

 

Should the mechanic shop not be allowed to use their diagnostic scanners to make more money at their profession, or to take their jobs easier? Probably not. People would want them to use the best equipment available to do their jobs the best. 

 

Same principle in my opinion with FFS, its the evolution of technology. 

 

 

 

 

[Cdn Angler]

49 minutes ago, Deleted account said:

 

Do you honestly think Brady and Steph eat Subway?...

 

No, but fishing is a bit different as there's some expectation that they at least somewhat use the baits. KVD used strike king products and Matt Stefan was fishing a Berkley money badger and prop bait last week. 

 

If Josh Jones is talking about squarebills it'd be a total farce.

[rangerjockey]

Heck, I know there are guys using it that don't really like it but on my home lake this time of year it's pretty much self defense. Tournaments are going to be won this time of year with the A Rig off shore which is perfect for FFS.  

I don't have it yet. but it really doesn't suit the way I like to fish.

I have heard from guys that I trust say that  it seems they are having to get further off of them . Makes me wonder if they could be feeling or hearing the sonar and getting wise. 

[Cdn Angler]

3 hours ago, Gera said:

 

LOL... Ok, this one I'll watch, let me search for it. 

?

 

To be fair he said it's a wild idea and he only heard of other people doing it and hasn't fished it himself. 

 

I mean any a-rig for Bass 20 years ago was considered ridiculous. 

 

As idiotic as it sounds I can't see why an a rig of swimbaits would work but a hard bait would not if rigged properly and in the right scenario. I won't be doing it any time soon though; just thinking of how to store a rig with 15 trebles gives me anxiety. Or a break off of a $150 rig.

[Captain Phil]

Still, there is something about hunting fish on your own.  I hardly ever use my electronics for anything accept depth and temperature.   When I pull up to a weed bed, I want to fish not stare into a computer screen.  I get tournament fishing.  Those guys will use any edge they can find.  If I had an AI system what would drive my boat, locate fish, cast and reel up bass, I wouldn't use it.  I like fishing too much.

[Vilas15]

3 hours ago, InfantryMP said:

I also think of this when I hear about the FFS debate.

 

A mechanic can spend hours diagnosing a vehicle, messing with this or that trying to complete the job. A lot of old school mechanics are very good at this based on experience and trial and error. With no electronic scanners to help them out.

 

Now mechanics, with newer vehicles can  "scan" for codes, and it tells you almost exactly what is wrong with the vehicle. It saves time, and potentially money for the shop to be able to diagnose and fix it issues more efficiently. All of this comes down to the business of making money for the shop. 

 

Should the mechanic shop not be allowed to use their diagnostic scanners to make more money at their profession, or to take their jobs easier? Probably not. People would want them to use the best equipment available to do their jobs the best. 

 

Same principle in my opinion with FFS, its the evolution of technology. 

 

 

 

 

I think the deciding factor in this debate is whether you're looking at it through the eyes of catch and release only and how it applies to tournaments, vs how people are using this to keep their limit (or more) every time they're on the water (or ice). In your analogy the mechanics job doesn't involve consuming a public resource that we all have to share, so of course i want them to do their best since the public benefits from them doing a good service faster/cheaper. For FFS, the public is hurt when it makes it easier to for guides to take clients out and catch their limits more often. There's less fish for the rest of us. Are they breaking the rules? No but the limits aren't set with the expectation that the catching is made easier by FFS. As it has already been mentioned some places are adapting the panfish limits of 5 or 10 instead of 25 knowing it's likely people will find fish more often, instead of less frequent success allowing an occasional big day of 25 crappies. We'll have to keep cranking down the limits which hurts the people who follow them, including guides, but not those who don't.

 

I'm less concerned about this tech in tournaments, except for catching deep fish in hot water increasing mortality which is a big concern for muskies. But if nothing is done and it becomes more common since you need it to win try turning the dial back on something that everybody spent a few thousand dollars on and you'll get plenty of people up in arms.

[Tennessee Boy]

People have been saying since the beginning of time that one thing or another was going to ruin fishing and still we have plenty of fish.   There is no evidence that live sonar is hurting the fish population.  Fish have always adapted to our technological advances.   Even if I’m wrong,  any damage can be corrected through changes in regulations.  Fishery biologists are constantly studying the impact that various things have on fisheries.  I would imagine there are studies under way right now on live sonar use in bass fishing.   I know one study has been published on live sonar in crappie fishing and it did not find any evidence that using live sonar increased the number or size of crappie caught.  Another study found that those with live sonar caught twice as many crappie but they did not catch bigger fish or harvest more fish than those without live sonar.

[Susky River Rat]

42 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

Another study found that those with live sonar caught twice as many crappie but they did not catch bigger fish or harvest more fish than those without live sonar.

I know some states are way cutting back on their panfish harvest limits since FFS. 

[Dogface]

41 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

I know one study has been published on live sonar in crappie fishing and it did not find any evidence that using live sonar increased the number or size of crappie caught.  Another study found that those with live sonar caught twice as many crappie but they did not catch bigger fish or harvest more fish than those without live sonar.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Josh Jones start out using FFS to win Crappy Tournaments in OK and didn't those wins elevate him from a mediocre crappy fisherman to his current fame. For sure he would not have the recognition he has today if he did not use FFS. 

[gim]

14 minutes ago, Darnold335 said:

I know some states are way cutting back on their panfish harvest limits since FFS. 

They are here, and there will be more coming. It’s primarily as a result of using livescope through the ice.

[Susky River Rat]

1 minute ago, gimruis said:

They are here, and there will be more coming. It’s primarily as a result of using livescope through the ice.

Honestly from what I remember that was the original   intent of livescope was for ice fishing wasn’t it?

[Tennessee Boy]

1 hour ago, Dogface said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Josh Jones start out using FFS to win Crappy Tournaments in OK and didn't those wins elevate him from a mediocre crappy fisherman to his current fame. For sure he would not have the recognition he has today if he did not use FFS. 

I believe you are correct.  Just because one guy is successful using it doesn’t mean everyone is.  Don’t get me wrong,  I think as people get live sonar and eventually learn how to use it effectively it will increase the pressure in parts of the lake that have seen less pressure in the past.  I also think the fish will adapt.  
 

There is an enormous amount hype around the technology.  Consider this quote from the article that found no evidence that live sonar increased catch rates for crappie.

 

“LIS(live imaging sonar) use may have more social than biological influence on recreational fisheries. For example, visibility of successful angling trips using LIS may be increased on various social media platforms by recreational anglers or service providers (e.g., fishing guides, resorts, tournaments) participating in or promoting a fishery.  This might result in an inflated view of LIS use among anglers and exacerbate concerns about overexploitation.”

 

Quote from “Evaluating Effects of Live-Imaging Sonar on Angler Catch of Crappies in a Kansas Impoundment”. Fisheries Magazine October 2022.

[gim]

21 minutes ago, Darnold335 said:

Honestly from what I remember that was the original   intent of livescope was for ice fishing wasn’t it?

That sounds right. The only thing that keeps a reasonable amount of panfish in some lakes up here during the winter is poor ice conditions. The conditions this winter were awful. The ice base was poor, then a ton of snow. Then it melted, rained, and a layer of slush formed. Then it snowed some more. Lol

 

Basically the only way to get around out there this winter was to walk or by snowmobile. Most people do not own a snowmobile, and most people are too lazy to walk. So the lakes got a nice break in fishing pressure this winter.

[JediAmoeba]

8 hours ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

He caught a 60lb bag on film.

 

I can't imagine what your definition of a trophy is if those are dinks.  

 

7 hours ago, InfantryMP said:

 

He also just placed 5th in the first BASS open, with no professional level tournament experience. 

I know - he's a great fisherman. But he is also a marketing guy for 6th sense and his seld, if you watch all of his videos you will see the ones where he is obviously just plugging for 6th sense. It's his job, anyone bright would do it but it's also for clicks and views - I know I would. 

[DitchPanda]

13 hours ago, Captain Phil said:

 

For a number of years I fished a Senior's tournament trail limited to anglers over 50.   Those guys were the toughest anglers I ever fished against.  They forgot more about bass fishing than most anglers ever knew.  One angler in this tour was personally invited by Ray Scott to fish his first tournament.  He told Ray he was too busy to fish.  Tournament Bass fishing is both a mental and physical game.  You may be able to beat a competitor with physical limitations.  Beating one with years of experience is not so easy.

I agree to a point, but if that was 100% true then Rick Clunn and Randy Blaukat would be dominating.

 

[Deleted account]

20 minutes ago, DitchPanda said:

I agree to a point, but if that was 100% true then Rick Clunn and Randy Blaukat would be dominating.

 

 

Every sport has a sweet spot, sure fishing isn't gymnastics or figure skating, but you loose a step every year after a certain age. There will always be outliers, but I can't see someone dominating after their mid 40s or so. I remember I was 31 when I first noticed I had lost a bit of foot and hand speed along with reflexes in tennis, not to mention mental drive and physical stamina, 60 is the new 60...

[Captain Phil]

10 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

I agree to a point, but if that was 100% true then Rick Clunn and Randy Blaukat would be dominating.

 

Success is not about who is "hot" at the moment, it's about lifetime achievement.  The problem with getting old is once you have life figured out, you are gone.   Hopefully, you pass along some of the things you learned.

[Cbump]

On 3/9/2023 at 3:56 PM, Captain Phil said:

What I am against is the ever increasing entry level of bass fishing.  From my living room window, I can see across Lake Eustis.  On any given day, I watch millions of dollars in bass boats and tow vehicles ride by.  Why do all these people believe they need to spend the cost of a small house to catch bass?  Bass fishing should be an enjoyable pastime, not a boat show for posers.

This is ridiculous. No one is forcing anyone else to buy the 100k bass boat. There are other options. 
 

As far as FFS…I know exactly ZERO people that own It who know how to utilize It properly. And I know a lot that own It. The vast majority that have It, put in their boat then go beat the bank anyway. Just like before with sidescan.  Doesn’t bother me at all for It to be allowed in local derbies. In fact, I don’t even think about It. Not sure why a bunch of bank beaters and bass buster pond fisherman on forums care either. I assure you no one cares that you don’t like watching a pro stare at a screen. It’s not like bass tournaments have ever drawn viewers like other sports anyway. 
 

As far as “decimating” fish numbers…that’s up to the wildlife agencies to manage with bag limits. The bag limits were set for a reason. Who cares if you catch 25 crappie in 10 minutes with FFS or 25 crappie in 7 hours. It’s still 25 crappie. If it’s made It too easy to get the bag limit, to the point where so many people are doing It and decimating a fishery (which I doubt) then they should drop the bag limit. 
 

The hammers with ffs, were the hammers without ffs. Social media (including this forum) highlight the minority that are really good at using It, but there are waaaaay more people that own It that don’t even know what they’re  doing. 
 

This is all much ado about nothing and will go away before too long (except for the whiners). 

17 hours ago, Captain Phil said:

Still, there is something about hunting fish on your own.  I hardly ever use my electronics for anything accept depth and temperature.   When I pull up to a weed bed, I want to fish not stare into a computer screen.  I get tournament fishing.  Those guys will use any edge they can find.  If I had an AI system what would drive my boat, locate fish, cast and reel up bass, I wouldn't use it.  I like fishing too much.

 

News flash. It’s still fishing.