Are most people opposed to live sonar?

[Bankc]

2 hours ago, KSanford33 said:

I'm no more opposed to LiveScope or FFS than I am someone using an $800 driver in a golf tournament. At the end of the day, you still need to get the fish to bite or put the ball in the hole. 

 

I do fish tournaments, but almost invariably I start shallow and work my way deeper if I need to. I'll be the first to admit that I can't afford it. Actually, let me rephrase that, my marriage can't afford it, but I don't know that I'd get a ton of use out of it even if I could.

To be fair, the PGA has lots of strict rules on what's allowed on a golf club.  If the ball comes off the club head too fast at a given club head speed, they deem the club illegal.  They also don't allow range finders.  

[Dirtyeggroll]

I am all for live sonar.
 

I think it’s great at every level.

 

No one is forced to use it.

The cost restriction argument is bogus in my opinion. Tournament fees, gas for travel and the mostly costly thing of all, time on the water are more costly than live sonar. 

 

I have the latest and greatest tech on my boat and think it’s fun.

 

I also like fishing from the bank or from a jon boat without any electronics and still do it frequently. 
 

I find satisfaction in both.

 

I don’t like the concept or practice of tournament fishing. 

[5by3]

I would like to see professional circuits allow FFS during practice, but not during the tournament.

 

As a fan in the stands, I’ve personally lost some enjoyment especially during smallmouth dominated events when guys are staring at their screen the whole time on air. 
 

just my two cents though. 

[TnRiver46]

1 hour ago, Darth-Baiter said:

awesome point!!!

 

hunting.  no doubt you can draw some parallels.   hunting is carefully regulated to maintain "fair chase"  no drones, no rich dudes with helocopter spotters, no night vision, no heat vision.  in AK, you cant even hunt the same day you fly in so you cant run after a moose you saw on the flight in.

 

i remember a hunting outfit that legally had trackers.  like 20 fit mountain hikers that would find the trophy animals and get the hunter to the spot.  hardly fair.  but like live sonar, at this point it takes $$ to play. 

 

i think livescope is like heat/night vision for hunting.  

I think livescope is a lot more like a motion activated trail cam than a thermal 

[Bird]

Ahhh, I remember the days of sitting on the river bank with nightcrawlers and ants would crawl up your shorts.

Using brittle expired Stren that would break on a big fish.

Night crawler guts under the finger nails.

Top guide missing.

We had no money but caught a ton of fish.

[DitchPanda]

 I don't have much of a dog in this fight as I don't even own a boat or kayak. Not because I can't afford one, but mainly because I can fish almost all the water bodies around me from shore effectively because they are relatively small. That said, if I had a boat I would not have FF sonar but have no issue with anybody else using one.

 The only reason I don't like them in Bassmasters is I find the footage to be boring, otherwise I have no qualms. If it made fishing "too easy" and there was no skill involved in catching fish with it why are the same guys always winning or placing high?

 Randy's biggest issue is his best years are far behind him, so he throws any shade he can at anybody whose ahead of him. Pretty soon he will be saying guys under 55 shouldn't be able to fish competitively because they are stronger,faster and have better coordination and that's an "unfair" advantage. It would be like me playing football against a bunch of high schoolers because I did it 25 years ago, getting me a#$ kicked then going to the school board and telling them they need to get rid of the football program because life's unfair.

[TnRiver46]

1 hour ago, JediAmoeba said:

 

 

Every sporting event limits the use of things and puts restrictions in place - except bass fishing. 

Bass fishing has all kind of restrictions. Horse power, rod length, Alabama rigs, etc 

[Deleted account]

8 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

Bass fishing has all kind of restrictions. Horse power, rod length, Alabama rigs, etc 

 

Yeah, every sport has things that are allowed, and things that aren't, you know, the rules...

 

 

[WIGuide]

3 hours ago, InfantryMP said:

I find it hard to believe the 80% of anglers oppose it. I would like to see the study.

I really don't think you would....pretty sure that study was conducted somewhere in Randy's back-side before he pulled the results out and threw it out there on the interwebs. 

I do really find the amount of hate for FF sonar out there quite interesting along with the stated reasons for being opposed to it. I'm all for it, and I have it. It was on my boat for the second half of last season. The amount of information you can learn from it is pretty fascinating.

 

From most of what I've seen put out there about being against it I would venture to guess is coming from those that not only don't have it, but have never been in a boat that had nor have they ever tried to use it. If they did, they'd quickly discover there's more of a learning curve to it thank what they think. I feel that there's a pretty strong persona among those people that this just makes it incredibly easy to catch fish. There's a lot more that goes into it and just because you know a fish is there doesn't mean it's going to bite. Have you ever tried chasing a school of busting fish and managed to not catch a single one when you know where they're at? How about a bedding fish? There are times you can stare at them and cast at them for a long time and they'll never bite. Also keep in mind in that scenario, the fishes instincts are keeping them around the bed where if you find them the rest of they year they can just swim off. 

 

There's comments about it taking the magic out of fishing....how? Do you enjoy the magic of throwing repeatedly in an area devoid of fish? If so, fishing can be wicked cheap for you since you can just fish in the puddle that clearly has no fish in it and let the "magic" flow naturally.

Then you have the other good one about how it's made watching fishing boring because they're looking at a screen, but way back in 2012 they were staring at screens too using 2D sonar to watch their baits drop on fish. Even back then it wasn't considered a "new" thing. What is it that these anglers are supposed to be looking at though? If they're fishing off shore, are they supposed to be staring aimlessly into the horizon pretending their graphs aren't there at all like when you see an ex at the grocery store? 

 

To each their own though, whether you love it, hate it, or are completely indifferent, it really doesn't matter. You can do as you please to create your own fishing experience, and that's what makes fishing such a great sport. If you want to drowned worms from the bank, or stalk your prey down like a ninja in the night, or anything in-between there's nothing wrong with either one as long as you enjoy it. 

[JediAmoeba]

31 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

Bass fishing has all kind of restrictions. Horse power, rod length, Alabama rigs, etc 

I hardly think dudes going 80 mph through narrow channels is a restriction. If anything they keep the laymen out of the sport. Should we limit basketball to only dudes 6'0 and above in height? Not let goalies in hockey be over 6'0? 

 

Why don't they allow live bait? If they did, lure sales would probably take a big hit...

I am someone that coangles - I want to get a boat but who knows if the stars will align and that will happen but if it did, I wouldn't get one without FFS. I have fished with enough guys to know if you don't have it, you are going to lose 95% of the time.

[JediAmoeba]

 

 

I would also like to add - the guy that won the club I fish in last year has only been fishing a year and a half. He beat all the guys that have been fishing the lake for 20-25 years using livescope. I would consider it more important to have a FSS and a trolling motor than a big outboard.

[AlabamaSpothunter]

My belief is that effective usage of FFS isn't cheating, it isn't Bass fishing, it's a brand new pursuit.

 

You simply can't compare big fish legends, or big tourney legends pre FFS to current ones.

 

Butch Brown is a big Bass fisherman, Josh Jones is a savant FFS user.   One isn't better than the other in my book per say, but they are doing two totally different activities.   Winning a Classic using FFS is vastly different than winning a Classic without one.

 

I want it very badly, and when I can afford it I will have it, but I have no illusions that any big fish I catch because of it will be viewed differently than ones caught before it, and imho rightfully so.   

 

Josh Jones caught ONE DD before Garmin's Livescope, since getting FFS he's caught over 200 DDs.     That's the only stat you need to know for how game changing it is.   

[Hawgfinder]

My grandson at 17 said it best it’s terrible to watch and he probably wants to remove basic electronics because it’s not fishing anymore it’s like a video game! A year ago he thought I should get it on my boat I’m like dude it’s so expensive and I suck at video games unless it’s Nintendo Mario brothers from 30 years ago. All opinions are fine, just not realistic for the average guy and really watching tournaments on the first 2 elites I don’t think the guys that won ever got the kink out of their necks from staring at their screens that probably cost 15K or more. IMHO 

[Woody B]

3 hours ago, T-Billy said:

I am however, opposed to Randy Blaukat's B.S. 

 

Just another reason I don't watch videos.  

[Kirtley Howe]

I could not care less about LiveScope or FFS. If you want to use it, go for it. If you don't like it, don't use it. I did kind of like Randy's idea of having the tournament anglers vote (with in their own organization) as to if it should be allowed in their tournaments. That does seem fair to me...let the tournament anglers decide for themselves. 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

2 hours ago, Vilas15 said:

They got limits on golf clubs and balls. Size of driver heads and limiting other measurements of performance. They've hit the current ceiling on driver distance and theres plenty of controversy about it ruining the game since courses are made too easy with newer tech. You can only use clubs conforming to the PGAs rules in official tournaments. And nobody sells non conforming clubs except for TV infomercial gimmicks so that people don't accidentally disqualify themselves.

Same way I care what kind of guns and other equipment somebody uses when hunting. They've got to follow the same rules as me to ensure a fair chase. Sonar is a new technology without any rules so like many tech industries any gov regulation is way behind since most lawmakers barely understand email.

 

In bass fishing its not really a problem since people catch and release, but some of this new tech allows people to really put a dent in panfish on the ice. The pro musky tournament trail just banned FFS this past season midway.

 

I am just wondering whats the end game? The tech will keep improving, until what? We can wear virtually reality goggles and see every fish in the lake and the computed odds theyre feeding based on their location and activity? Gotta draw the line somewhere before the tech goes too far. You can't use night vision to hunt deer even though you still have to find them and shoot them because it makes it too easy. You can't use a drone to spot deer (as far as i know, which is basically what Livescope is to fishing.

A couple of teeners were killed on OH Ivie this year from being scoped/caught deep, it was kind of a turning point for me in some regard.   It's one thing to use it to catch and release, but to kill lottery odd fish saddens me deeply.     

 

I can't agree with people using it to catch teeners from 50ft+ after knowing they've already killed fish and run the risk of killing the next one they bring up.   

[TnRiver46]

3 hours ago, WIGuide said:

I really don't think you would....pretty sure that study was conducted somewhere in Randy's back-side before he pulled the results out and threw it out there on the interwebs. 

I do really find the amount of hate for FF sonar out there quite interesting along with the stated reasons for being opposed to it. I'm all for it, and I have it. It was on my boat for the second half of last season. The amount of information you can learn from it is pretty fascinating.

 

From most of what I've seen put out there about being against it I would venture to guess is coming from those that not only don't have it, but have never been in a boat that had nor have they ever tried to use it. If they did, they'd quickly discover there's more of a learning curve to it thank what they think. I feel that there's a pretty strong persona among those people that this just makes it incredibly easy to catch fish. There's a lot more that goes into it and just because you know a fish is there doesn't mean it's going to bite. Have you ever tried chasing a school of busting fish and managed to not catch a single one when you know where they're at? How about a bedding fish? There are times you can stare at them and cast at them for a long time and they'll never bite. Also keep in mind in that scenario, the fishes instincts are keeping them around the bed where if you find them the rest of they year they can just swim off. 

 

There's comments about it taking the magic out of fishing....how? Do you enjoy the magic of throwing repeatedly in an area devoid of fish? If so, fishing can be wicked cheap for you since you can just fish in the puddle that clearly has no fish in it and let the "magic" flow naturally.

Then you have the other good one about how it's made watching fishing boring because they're looking at a screen, but way back in 2012 they were staring at screens too using 2D sonar to watch their baits drop on fish. Even back then it wasn't considered a "new" thing. What is it that these anglers are supposed to be looking at though? If they're fishing off shore, are they supposed to be staring aimlessly into the horizon pretending their graphs aren't there at all like when you see an ex at the grocery store? 

 

To each their own though, whether you love it, hate it, or are completely indifferent, it really doesn't matter. You can do as you please to create your own fishing experience, and that's what makes fishing such a great sport. If you want to drowned worms from the bank, or stalk your prey down like a ninja in the night, or anything in-between there's nothing wrong with either one as long as you enjoy it. 

Oh my. You basically just settled this debate that has raged on for a couple years now. Someone pin this post and reference it forever when dozens more threads on this topic come up!!! Call a moderator!!!!!

 

seriously, no one has ever said it better that I’ve heard. I’ve been in boats with livescope and had absolutely no clue what was going on looking at it, and I’m pretty handy with down imaging and 2D. Obviously people are good at using it to catch fish but I bet plenty of people waste a lot of time using it to try catching fish 

[Buzzbaiter]

7 hours ago, NorthernBasser said:

Never forget Randy did a video on the A-Rig but instead of using swimbaits he had 5 Vision 110's rigged on it. One of his "top secrets". The guy is just a troll looking for views. 

It seems that every other day, one of his “most closely guarded secrets” gets out.

[NorthernBasser]

2 hours ago, Buzzbaiter said:

It seems that every other day, one of his “most closely guarded secrets” gets out.

"Guys, I'm telling you, if you trim the entire skirt off of your swim jig and wacky rig an 8" Magdraft on it, you're gonna catch a lot more fish". 

[Cdn Angler]

6 hours ago, Ktho said:

 

Does your opinion change knowing drivers and golf equipment are restricted? The technology is there to increase distance, spin, etc. but the rules of golf prohibit it, same for some different types of shots like putting. This is almost more akin to the recent equipment controversy with the long putters and anchoring to the body that everyone could do but they banned it. 

 

They specifically restrict how long a driver can be as the ball goes further than is deemed desirable. I think the size of the head is also restricted. Formula1 and Nascar have endless restrictions. Now that I think of it basically every sport has restrictions, including tournament angling. You can't net fish, troll, get out of your boat, some restrict a-rigs etc. 

[Cdn Angler]

6 hours ago, Vilas15 said:

I don't think they will due to the money spent by the companies that are selling it who want you to see the pros using it. It'd take government regulating its use, and that's my concern that they're way behind the times and by the time the tech gets too good the cat will be out of the bag.

 

I wonder what the lure manufacturers think about it? If I'm Berkley, 6th Sense or Rapala what is FFS doing for me and my products, which are mainly lures, baits and rods? As far as I'm aware they have nothing to do with Garmin. 

 

How many Rapala lures might get used in a livescoping tournament? How many Berkley baits are obsolete if FFS is 90% of tournaments? The way I see it the total range of potential lures used will go way down. The total # of lures used in one tournament by a top angler will go way down. The number of baits and rods any given angler will need should decrease. The search for a magic bait will likely be dispelled and you'll need way less colours and variety.  Yes the FFS based lures will increase in sales, but how many flutter spoons, a-rigs and flatworms are needed? 

 

I'd assume topwater, shallow running cranks, spinnerbaits, pitching/flipping baits account for a huge portion of sales. How's a pro going to sell those if they no longer use them? How's Josh Jones going to sell 101 colours of a squarebill? Or 100 iterations of a flutter spoon or 1oz jig?

 

It's like basketball and baseball nowadays where analytics says that only home runs and 3 pointers have value. 

[Susky River Rat]

As much as I am against it. It’s not unfair if everyone on the pro tour is using it. I really could care less what those guys do. I will never fish those waters and I will never fish against them in a competitive way. 
 

I do see how it has effected small lakes here. It has changed. There is no where for these fish to go anymore to avoid pressure. 
 

I’ve also saw some of the kayak rigs these guys fish on. 2-3 graphs up front you know one is FFS. So that is not as grass roots as some think it is. 
 

it is awesome technology. I just think eventually it will bite the fishing community in the ass. 
 

Besides the good ol days of fighting a snag are going to be gone ? the line snapping on “the biggest fish I never saw “ stories will be gone too 

 

[Captain Phil]

13 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

Pretty soon he will be saying guys under 55 shouldn't be able to fish competitively because they are stronger,faster and have better coordination and that's an "unfair" advantage.

 

For a number of years I fished a Senior's tournament trail limited to anglers over 50.   Those guys were the toughest anglers I ever fished against.  They forgot more about bass fishing than most anglers ever knew.  One angler in this tour was personally invited by Ray Scott to fish his first tournament.  He told Ray he was too busy to fish.  Tournament Bass fishing is both a mental and physical game.  You may be able to beat a competitor with physical limitations.  Beating one with years of experience is not so easy.

[JediAmoeba]

8 hours ago, Cdn Angler said:

I'd assume topwater, shallow running cranks, spinnerbaits, pitching/flipping baits account for a huge portion of sales. How's a pro going to sell those if they no longer use them? How's Josh Jones going to sell 101 colours of a squarebill? Or 100 iterations of a flutter spoon or 1oz jig?

Watch Milliken - he will sell little baits while filming a video and trying to pass off dinks as monsters when he clearly isn't all that enthusiastic about it. But he's catching fish and for a lot of people, that's all they want.

[Gera]

18 hours ago, NorthernBasser said:

Never forget Randy did a video on the A-Rig but instead of using swimbaits he had 5 Vision 110's rigged on it. One of his "top secrets". The guy is just a troll looking for views. 

 

LOL... Ok, this one I'll watch, let me search for it. 

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