Acceptable Radial Play in Spool Bearings

[Big Hands]

I have a reel that is making noise and exhibits some vibration during casting. 

 

If I remove the bearing cap and push the end of the spool shaft while hold a finger on the opposite side of the spool, I can see it moving back and forth. With the bearing removed, and on a pencil tip, I can see the inner race being still and the outer race can be rocked back and forth. 

 

Just wondering what the bearing wizards have to say about acceptable radial play. The bearings on each side of the spool itself have been replaced. The spool axle seems to run true and there is no visible wear on it.

 

How much influence does the bearing at the end of the spool shaft have while casting. I can certainly understand having it there when retrieving line (hopefully with a fish on).?

 

Should they stay or should they go?

[garroyo130]

Every bearing ive dealt with has some level of play. How much is acceptable? I have no idea but those bearings should have that type of load on them. 

[FishTank]

If you are getting noise and vibration, I would just replace the spool bearings and see if that improves it. Most manufacture's factory part bearings are cheap and often better than the original. Just in case....What reel is it?

[GRiver]

Be carful Big Hands, it’s a dark deep rabbit hole your standing next too.

Most reels use unbranded and non rated bearings.

When you start doing the research, you’ll find out about the “abec” bearing rating system. Then you go to the material of the bearing. Stainless steel, ceramic, hybrids, shields , 

 no shields. Then to different lubes, light grease, oil, dry bearings. Then you’ll want to change the other bearings too. You’ll polish the gears and drag washers, replace the with carbon fiber.

i personally use abec 5 bearings or better, I like abec 7 if I can find them for spool bearings.

Sometimes it’s dark and scary down here. 

 

[Big Hands]

26 minutes ago, FishTank said:

If you are getting noise and vibration, I would just replace the spool bearings and see if that improves it. Most manufacture's factory part bearings are cheap and often better than the original. Just in case....What reel is it?

Daiwa Tournament Procaster PT10ZX (late 80's vintage)

 

 

2 minutes ago, GRiver said:

Be carful Big Hands, it’s a dark deep rabbit hole your standing next too.

Most reels use unbranded and non rated bearings.

When you start doing the research, you’ll find out about the “abec” bearing rating system. Then you go to the material of the bearing. Stainless steel, ceramic, hybrids, shields , 

 no shields. Then to different lubes, light grease, oil, dry bearings. Then you’ll want to change the other bearings too. You’ll polish the gears and drag washers, replace the with carbon fiber.

i personally use abec 5 bearings or better, I like abec 7 if I can find them for spool bearings.

Sometimes it’s dark and scary down here. 

 

Don't threaten me with a good time, LOL.

 

I see you over there (I am the dim light coming from the corner near the entrance). Having been through the RC car hobby and having my own portable commutator lathe and building my own batteries, etc., and doing things like building bicycle wheels, building my own computers, assembling car engines, swimbait painting, taking over 250,000 photos of my kids and their various soccer teams and bicycle races, and wrapping an entire set of fishing rods for myself. . . well, I have a knack for finding rabbit holes. 

 

I have owned this reel since it was new, in fact I had four of them until a few years ago. BITD I used to clean the bearings often and ran them bearings out and oil free because they would cast farther that way (knowing that their demise was being hastened). I sold the others a few years ago as parts reels and just kept one that was made from the best parts I had from all four reels. 

 

I'm also attempting to resurrect a newer (but still pretty old) Daiwa Procaster-Z 153iv. I noticed that this reel uses the same bearing on one side of it's spool as the bearings on both sides of the PT10ZX and I have a spare spool, so I had two bearings (one of which I know is new. I put them into the PT10ZX and I still got vibration during casting even though it casts VERY well. 

 

The reel has four bearings. One of them is on the drive gear assembly. There is one on each side of the spool, and a third bearing on the spool shaft at the bearing cap. The one under the adjustment cap is the one I can see the radial play in. The spool is supported by the two bearings closest to each side of the spool, and they are retained pretty tightly. So, if it's visibly moving (I am estimating at least .005" and closer to .010") at the end of the spool shaft, there is probably radial play in the two bearings closer to the spool as well. Maybe the play on the bearing at the end of the spool shaft is more important then the one closer to the spool now that I think about it (I know, you warned me about that). 

 

As long as were down here, I am wondering what tool(s) are safest for pressing a bearing into a tight bore (where there is almost no room behind the bearing)? I try to apply force to the outer race, but that is not easy and even harder to apply the force evenly. 

 

Currently, I don't see myself polishing gears and drag washers. . . What exactly do you use to polish gears and drag washers?   I am also seeing a tool (a washer really) to put on the magnets to prevent magnetizing bearings during installation? Is that really a thing?

 

I don't want to buy garbage bearings, but I don't need the Gucci stuff either. I found what I believe are ABEC 7 stainless bearings from HPR for a decent price and was considering going with those. 

[FishTank]

1 hour ago, GRiver said:

Be carful Big Hands, it’s a dark deep rabbit hole your standing next too.

Most reels use unbranded and non rated bearings.

When you start doing the research, you’ll find out about the “abec” bearing rating system. Then you go to the material of the bearing. Stainless steel, ceramic, hybrids, shields , 

 no shields. Then to different lubes, light grease, oil, dry bearings. Then you’ll want to change the other bearings too. You’ll polish the gears and drag washers, replace the with carbon fiber.

i personally use abec 5 bearings or better, I like abec 7 if I can find them for spool bearings.

Sometimes it’s dark and scary down here. 

 

That's for sure. It reminds of a kids book both my children loved.

 

 

[PhishLI]

1 hour ago, Big Hands said:

As long as were down here, I am wondering what tool(s) are safest for pressing a bearing into a tight bore (where there is almost no room behind the bearing)? I try to apply force to the outer race, but that is not easy and even harder to apply the force evenly. 

Which bearing is pressed in and into where? Have a schematic? I couldn't find the exact one. Only various other early Procasters.

[Big Hands]

23 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

Which bearing is pressed in and into where? Have a schematic? I couldn't find the exact one. Only various other early Procasters.

I can't find one from any of the usual sources. I emailed Daiwa on Friday to see if they had one, but haven't heard back.

 

The non-drive side has one that fits down into the Magforce assembly. There is a small hole (>1/8") in the backside of the assembly.

 

Pics will be here shortly.

[Big Hands]

 

The only way I could get the bearing out the first time was to drive it out with a drift though that small hole. There is a copper 'spool adjusting cap' (a little square slab) that is behind the bearing and if not for that, it would be even harder to remove it. Trying to hook it from the other side (shown from the pic below) was an exercise in futility.

 

[PhishLI]

2 hours ago, Big Hands said:

 

The only way I could get the bearing out the first time was to drive it out with a drift though that small hole. There is a copper 'spool adjusting cap' (a little square slab) that is behind the bearing and if not for that, it would be even harder to remove it. Trying to hook it from the other side (shown from the pic below) was an exercise in futility.

 

Hmm. It's like they made it as a one-and-done. Good thing it wasn't glued in.

 

So, the bearing acts as the retainer for the copper lash pad? Is a gap left between the face of the bearing and the pad so that the inner race isn't rubbing on the pad? I imagine the bearing must be pressed in to a specified depth as to avoid that being an issue.

 

And yes, with a bearing that small I'd avoid pressing it in by the inner race. A no-no for sure.

 

The tool you'd need in order to press the bearing back in is simple enough to make on a lathe. Turn the shank of the tool to a diameter where it'll fit in the chuck of your drill press, and you can use it as an arbor press. Shouldn't be an issue since the frame is plastic.

 

What's up with the missing magnet?

[Big Hands]

1 hour ago, PhishLI said:

So, the bearing acts as the retainer for the copper lash pad?

 

Is a gap left between the face of the bearing and the pad so that the inner race isn't rubbing on the pad? I imagine the bearing must be pressed in to a specified depth as to avoid that being an issue.

 

Yes, the lash pad is kept in by the bearing.

 

There is a narrow gap between the lash pad and the bearing. Since the bearing has been out recently, when I replace it, I'll try hooking it and pulling it out.

 

1 hour ago, PhishLI said:

And yes, with a bearing that small I'd avoid pressing it in by the inner race. A no-no for sure.

 

The tool you'd need in order to press the bearing back in is simple enough to make on a lathe. Turn the shank of the tool to a diameter where it'll fit in the chuck of your drill press, and you can use it as an arbor press. Shouldn't be an issue since the frame is plastic.

 

I may try to take a 3/8' wooden dowel and countersink the bottom of it and then sand it down to barely fit the 9 mm bore. Then, the dowel should only be contacting the outer race of the bearing.

 

1 hour ago, PhishLI said:

What's up with the missing magnet?

 

. . . . Great question. Makes me wonder if that could be a source for vibration. I think this may put the brakes on this project until I can get that issue sorted out. 

[GRiver]

7 hours ago, Big Hands said:

 

Don't threaten me with a good time, LOL.

 

I see you over there (I am the dim light coming from the corner near the entrance

LOL …..It’s way too late for you hahahaha

I use a dremel tool and wire wheels…aluminum, brass , even steel… depending on the hardness of the gear. Then a buffing pad on the dremel…. Very tedious. Just a buffing pad on the drag washers. 

8 hours ago, Big Hands said:

urrently, I don't see myself polishing gears and drag washers. . . What exactly do you use to polish gears and drag washers? 

Try freezing bearings and heating the opposing mating surfaces….heat gun or hair dryer, be careful not to over heat. Have to work kinda fast but it makes for easy install or removal.

It’s funny, we will chuck them in the back of the truck, bounce them around in the boat, lay them on the ground….. but when we work on them, we treat them like we are disarming a bomb and the clock is ticking…..go figure. 

[Big Hands]

11 hours ago, PhishLI said:

Have a schematic?

 

After looking so many times over the years, I finally came across a schematic view and parts list for my exact reel: 

 

https://www.reelschematic.com/wp-content/uploads/schematics/Daiwa/Baitcaster-Conventional/Daiwa Casting Pt10Zx(86-51).pdf

 

Not many parts available, but at least I can search occasionally for them and cross reference them.

[PhishLI]

18 minutes ago, Big Hands said:

 

After looking so many times over the years, I finally came across a schematic view and parts list for my exact reel: 

 

https://www.reelschematic.com/wp-content/uploads/schematics/Daiwa/Baitcaster-Conventional/Daiwa Casting Pt10Zx(86-51).pdf

 

Not many parts available, but at least I can search occasionally for them and cross reference them.

They're showing a clip retainer for the bearing in question. Is there a groove to accept it in the counterbore/bearing pocket? If that's the case, there shouldn't be an interference fit like you have now. This suggests that the plastic frame has outgassed over time and shrunk which is why you needed to press it out.

[bulldog1935]

All bearing races fit pretty snug in their seat, they always at least have alignment interference - if it's not straight, it's not going in.  

You have to want to get them out.   

Yours is likely compounded by the magnet field that wants to pull it back down.  

The little bearing puller hooks that come with handle knobs work pretty well.  

You have to walk them around and pull in several different rotation spots.  

As far as radial play in bearings, jack it up and put a new one underneath.  

The wobble you note counts as a brake on the spool rotation.  

In the old days, they glued a penny or nickel inside their spool flange to get that imbalance wobble for an anti-backlash brake.  

 

Today, it's solved with this

 

[PhishLI]

7 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

All bearing races fit pretty snug in their seat.  

I agree, of course, but it shouldn't need to be driven out, and if I'm reading what he wrote correctly, he'll need to drive it back in. They're often a tight slip-fit, but no tighter than that.

[Deleted account]

34 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

I agree, of course, but it shouldn't need to be driven out, and if I'm reading what he wrote correctly, he'll need to drive it back in. They're often a tight slip-fit, but no tighter than that.

 

Yes, unlike true press fit bearings, most reels' bearings are just "laying snugly" (technical term) in there. Tools for pressing and removing bearings are available for all sizes. Have some surgery to do on a bottom bracket tomorrow on a Ti bike that owner says "no idea" how it got like that, $$$. 

[Big Hands]

6 hours ago, PhishLI said:

They're showing a clip retainer for the bearing in question. Is there a groove to accept it in the counterbore/bearing pocket? If that's the case, there shouldn't be an interference fit like you have now. This suggests that the plastic frame has outgassed over time and shrunk which is why you needed to press it out.

 

The clip is there, at least until it is finally successful in it's attempt to find a new forever home. It's certainly had enough time to outgas and shrink in the 35 years of it's existence. I took it apart and there is indeed a gap behind it. I recently restrung a drapery rod and I remembered that the restring kit came with a tool just like the one bulldog1935 referenced, so I'll definitely be using that to get that bugger out when the time comes.

 

5 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

All bearing races fit pretty snug in their seat, they always at least have alignment interference - if it's not straight, it's not going in.  

You have to want to get them out.   

 

This one seems to have a little more interference than others. I will be able to use the tool I have that looks like yours next time it get removed.

 

5 hours ago, PhishLI said:

I agree, of course, but it shouldn't need to be driven out, and if I'm reading what he wrote correctly, he'll need to drive it back in. They're often a tight slip-fit, but no tighter than that.

 

Yea, it's not going back in with finger pressure, but I think if I use a countersunk drift made from a wooden dowel I can gently persuade it with contact being made on the outer race only. . . in theory.

 

 

Now, after further inspection, I think I have solved the magnet mystery. There is no evidence of a magnet ever having been glued into the open slot, and I see adhesive has been used to secure the others. Also, there are magnets on the red inner ring, and one of those places is empty as well.

 

The magnets are color coded with some having yellow of the face and the others having blue. When they are aligned with the same colors facing each other, the blue plastic magnet holder is trying to lift out of it's position. When opposite colors are aligned, it happily sits down where it's supposed to. 

 

My conclusion is that the open spots on the inner and outer magnet holders are intentional and nothing is actually missing. I could imagine that with six magnets in place, and the adjuster max'd out, the magnetic force may have been too strong, but this is just a very uneducated guess. 

 

Soooo, back to the bearing dilemma. I think I will just start fresh with replacing all three bearings that reside on the spool shaft. It's definitely a proverbial rabbit hole trying to sort out what bearings would would deliver acceptable performance, especially if I prefer not to overspend unnecessarily. 

 

5 hours ago, Deleted account said:

Yes, unlike true press fit bearings, most reels' bearings are just "laying snugly" (technical term) in there. Tools for pressing and removing bearings are available for all sizes. Have some surgery to do on a bottom bracket tomorrow on a Ti bike that owner says "no idea" how it got like that, $$$. 

 

Press fit. Aah yes. I have gone to either the Praxis or Wheels Manufacturing thread together press fit adapters with angular contact bearings. They have done well so far.

[bulldog1935]

Every photo you showed, the bearing retaining spring is in place.  

 

 

Did you remove the retaining spring before you tried removing the bearing?  

[Deleted account]

47 minutes ago, Big Hands said:

Press fit. Aah yes. I have gone to either the Praxis or Wheels Manufacturing thread together press fit adapters with angular contact bearings. They have done well so far.

LOL. Both very good. Like a root canal and crown for PF bottom brackets...  

26 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

 

 

 

 

Is that one of the Nazca lines?...

[Big Hands]

27 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

Did you remove the retaining spring before you tried removing the bearing?

 

Oh yeah. That I can (and have) dig out pretty easily.

 

3 minutes ago, Deleted account said:

Like a root canal and crown for PF bottom brackets...

 

It hurts the day you do it and then it's fine after that.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

Bearings spun on a pencil point after flushing should run quietly and come to rest gradually. If so they’re fine. When spools are supported by 3 bearings the crank side one is for lateral support and usually not as tight a fit on the spool shaft.  ABEC rating reflects the tolerances to which the bearing is manufactured. ABEC5 are plenty for reels,  especially when flushed and lubed properly ( lightly)

[PressuredFishing]

On 2/25/2023 at 5:49 PM, GRiver said:

Most reels use unbranded and non rated bearings.

Yup, except lews uses nmb, and even some cdm brands use nmb as well.

[Big Hands]

Ordered new bearings for all three bearings that support the spool shaft so I can start fresh with all new bearings. Thanks for all of the thoughtfully considered replies.

[bulldog1935]

6 hours ago, PressuredFishing said:

Yup, except lews uses nmb, and even some cdm brands use nmb as well.

Isuzu bench-made reels (includes Megabass Pagani) use NMB fine drive bearings.