Lithium batteries

[choppertime]

Shopping for a lithium battery for a fishing kayak,,,minn kota endura c2 30 lb thrust. I never realized how many different vendors were selling theses batteries. Do I need to get a marine specific deep cycle or ? My old ass (68) can't handle transporting the lead acid batteries any more way to heavy, there's other issues that account for me not wanting to handle those heavy batteries but that's another story. There has to be 1 overall winner but each says theirs is better(normal sales pitch) plus some 12 volt 100 Amp hour batteries are $299.-$999. What a challenge trying to decide. Anyway thanks for any input.... I also have a bass raider 10e with a traxss 55 lb thrust so battery would serve double duty. 

[MN Fisher]

Most LiFePo4 batteries you'll buy are made in China or at least have Chinese cells. Dakota and Battleborn are mostly US made, but you pay for it.

 

Personally - I've had no issues with my Mighty Max AGMs and when I move to Lithium they're the brand I'll get.

https://www.amazon.com/Mighty-Max-Battery-Replaces-Trolling/dp/B07PFY34H6

[gim]

57 minutes ago, choppertime said:

Do I need to get a marine specific deep cycle or ?

If you only intend to use it with your traxxis then a deep cycle is the one you'd want to select.  If you are going to use it to power other items like electronics, pumps, lights, etc, then you'll want to get a dual purpose.

[GaryH]

Kind of like Ford vs Chevy. I’ve been running Ionics lithium for two years now with no complaints. I picked them because of their phone app. So you can see exactly the condition and power usage  at a glance. Stick with brands that have BMS.

[NYBasser]

I’ve been running ionics for the past year as well with no issues, very happy with them. Stay away from the cheap amazon lithium batteries and stick with a reputable brand. Also if you’re looking to save a bit, you probably don’t need a 100ah lithium for a 12v trolling motor

[Bankc]

They're all pretty much made the same.  There are some tiny differences in the quality of the cells and the BMS (the circuits that control the batteries), but usually nothing major.  

What you pay for, when you buy an expensive one that's made in the USA, versus a cheap one made in China, is product support.  If you buy a cheap one on Amazon (or whatever), and something goes wrong, you'll likely not get any support from the company.  And you'll have to buy a new battery out of your own pocket.  With the name brand batteries, you're paying more, but you're also getting a company that will stand behind their products.  Of course, you're often paying 2x-3x as much for virtually the same thing.  But that's the gamble.  Pay a lot for something that you know will work, and someone will stand behind it if it doesn't, or pay a little for something that probably will work, but if it doesn't and your past the return period with the seller, you'll probably be out of luck.  

 

Personally, I went with a Weize Lithium.  I've had it for about six months now, and it's been nothing but a joy!  Will Prowse has a YouTube channel where he dismantles and discusses various lithium batteries.  He's pretty knowledgeable about this stuff and his channel is worth checking out.  He mainly focuses on batteries for solar power storage, but all of that information translates over to trolling motor use.  

 

You don't need a deep cycle or marine lithium battery.  LiFePo4 batteries can do both just fine.  They're not like the old lead-acid or AGM style that require different construction methods to pull each duty.  However, if you go with a smaller battery, like say 50 Ah or less, make sure it can handle the full draw of your trolling motor.  There should be a listing called something like "max continuous current draw".  Make sure it's below your trolling motor's max draw.  But if you're looking at 100Ah batteries, that shouldn't be a concern, as those shouldn't have any issue putting out more than enough amps for whatever you plan to use it for.  Pretty much all lithium battery will take being drained down to around 10-20% without issue.  They're deep cycle by nature.  

[padlin]

I went with an EnjoyBot 100a for my bass raider, chose it for price after making sure it could do the 55a continuous output my motor uses on full, many max at 50a. The Enjoy Bot does the full 100a, and yes, I tested it.

 

I don't use a lot of power on the ponds I fish, I've only used up to 10% for half days, so for me i could have gotten away with a 50a, other then you won't get the 55a from it. 

 

I didn't bother with a marine as I put it in a battery box so splashing or rain isn't an issue.

 

If you aren't aware, you need a lithium charger for them.

[Siebert Outdoors]

I have Ionics lithium's that power my Ghost trolling motor.  They work great.  I will be adding another one later to power all my electronics.  You can figure up your AMPs needed just add up what amp hr all your stuff will be and see what size battery you will need.

 

For example a Lowrance Live 12 pulls 2.3 amps per hr.  If I have 4 of them its 9.2 per hr.  I want to fish 10hrs I would need 92 amps.  So a 100 would work.  With that said I'd get a 125 for a safety buffer but that's me.

[Zcoker]

I'd suggest looking for a lithium battery that has some sort of monitoring systems like built-in Bluetooth. Not good if you go out and stay out and don't know your juice capacity. Kinda like the fuel gauge on a car, no gas means no go. If not, then you'll have to get something like the Victron shunt which are pricey. A regular lead acid battery monitor won't work on a lithium battery. In any case, I opted for the Renogy 100amp/hr with Bluetooth. This battery I can go all day miles and even all day miles next day without charging. Very confident in it's ability to get me where I need to go but....

 

I had to get a shunt anyway because my battery's built-in Bluetooth became "intermittent" lol  

[padlin]

Good point. If you are adept at electronics at all you can buy a battery monitor/shunt and a battery box and build your own, which is what I did. With Lithium you don’t get the gradual loss of power like flooded batteries that tell you when you are getting down there. I also don’t know if the little leds on the Minn Kota are accurate for lithium as I’ve never gotten down far enough to check it. Lithium doesn’t loose voltage till about 85% used, then it drops right off. I also don’t know if the prebuilt battery box gauges will work, maybe, maybe not.

[22RangerZ520R]

I have Ionics.  Two 125ah parallel for cranking and electronics and three 100ah for the Ultrex.  Zero power issues and I can run all my power hungry units (Apex 19 and two Apex 16's with Mega Live and Mega 360) for almost two days straight without charging.  Being able to monitor each individual battery on my phone is awesome too.

[Woody B]

I've been very pleased with my Ionics.  I haven't needed it, but their customer service is super.  Call Lithium Hub, or Drewcraft for recommendations for your application.   

[Zcoker]

On 2/23/2023 at 1:52 PM, padlin said:

Good point. If you are adept at electronics at all you can buy a battery monitor/shunt and a battery box and build your own, which is what I did. With Lithium you don’t get the gradual loss of power like flooded batteries that tell you when you are getting down there. I also don’t know if the little leds on the Minn Kota are accurate for lithium as I’ve never gotten down far enough to check it. Lithium doesn’t loose voltage till about 85% used, then it drops right off. I also don’t know if the prebuilt battery box gauges will work, maybe, maybe not.

 

That's great that you can build your own shunt. TBD has one exactly like the Victron at half the cost....it may in fact be a Victron just branded differently. I got one and will try out. 

[Tennessee Boy]

I can see how being able to monitor the status of your batteries would be cool but in my 33 years as a boat owner I have only had my trolling motor batteries give out on me one time. That was on a trip when I forgot my charger and on the third day the trolling motor was still working but was almost useless.  I’m confident now that on single day of fishing I will be exhausted long before my batteries are.

[rboat]

Can you use a lithium 100amp hour battery to start your outboard? or are they only good for trolling motors?

I have also heard that lithium batteries can be charged with regular onboard chargers? Thanks.

[MN Fisher]

5 minutes ago, rboat said:

Can you use a lithium 100amp hour battery to start your outboard? or are they only good for trolling motors?

Check the owners manual on the battery - some Lithiums are rated as starting batteries, but if it's not you have a good chance of blowing the BMS rendering the battery unusable.

 

6 minutes ago, rboat said:

I have also heard that lithium batteries can be charged with regular onboard chargers?

The charger must be rated for lithium batteries...the one I have can charge wet/gel cell, AGMs and Lithiums.

[Tennessee Boy]

49 minutes ago, rboat said:

Can you use a lithium 100amp hour battery to start your outboard? or are they only good for trolling motors?

Some can.  Most do not recommend it.  The BMS in my 75ah LiFePO4 battery that powers my electronics will shut off after 0.5 seconds of discharge greater than 200 amps.  Most outboards pull more current than that when starting.

 

49 minutes ago, rboat said:

I have also heard that lithium batteries can be charged with regular onboard chargers? Thanks.

Even though all LiFePO4 batteries are basically the same, different brands give different guidance on this.

 

The Ionic website says:

This Limited Warranty does not cover consequential damages and or defects due to the following conditions (but not limited to):

 

• Use of any charging system not specifically designed for LithiumHub Ionic Deep Cycle Lithium Batteries.

 

The Battleborn website says:

You can use any standard charger to charge our LiFePO4 deep cycle battery.

 

There are some chargers and controllers that are programmable to ensure full usage out of your battery, but most will have an AGM setting which normally bulk charges about 14.4 volts and float at 13.6 volts. These levels are great for your Battle Born battery.

 

[Zcoker]

1 hour ago, Tennessee Boy said:

I can see how being able to monitor the status of your batteries would be cool but in my 33 years as a boat owner I have only had my trolling motor batteries give out on me one time. That was on a trip when I forgot my charger and on the third day the trolling motor was still working but was almost useless.  I’m confident now that on single day of fishing I will be exhausted long before my batteries are.

 

I can relate to your point for a regular gas powered boat with a trolling motor, sure can. However, it's different story when miles out in the everglades at night in a electric powered kayak....need to know precisely what's going on with ALL things, including remaining power. It's critical, as far as I'm concerned. Even in the daytime, knowing the remaining power supply in a powered yak is essential to cover needed water. 

[GaryH]

Chargers for use with Ionic lithium batteries.

[Bankc]

24 minutes ago, Zcoker said:

 

I can relate to your point for a regular gas powered boat with a trolling motor, sure can. However, it's different story when miles out in the everglades at night in a electric powered kayak....need to know precisely what's going on with ALL things, including remaining power. It's critical, as far as I'm concerned. Even in the daytime, knowing the remaining power supply in a powered yak is essential to cover needed water. 

See, I would argue the opposite.  That if it's that critical to you, then you shouldn't ever put yourself into a situation where you're having to monitor the charge.  The reason being that there's no accurate way to know the charge in a lithium battery.  The best you can do is measure the amount of current drawn over time from the battery, and make an estimate based on that.  But that requires a consistent and predictable charge being put into the battery to begin with.  And the charge and operating temperatures, cells' age and health, and variations from battery to battery from the factory will change all of that.  So if it reads 25% full, it might actually be at 10% or 40%.  That's partly why cell phones always seem to run for two days on the first 80% of a charge and only last a few minutes in the final 20% of a charge.

[Zcoker]

17 hours ago, Bankc said:

See, I would argue the opposite.  That if it's that critical to you, then you shouldn't ever put yourself into a situation where you're having to monitor the charge.  The reason being that there's no accurate way to know the charge in a lithium battery.  The best you can do is measure the amount of current drawn over time from the battery, and make an estimate based on that.  But that requires a consistent and predictable charge being put into the battery to begin with.  And the charge and operating temperatures, cells' age and health, and variations from battery to battery from the factory will change all of that.  So if it reads 25% full, it might actually be at 10% or 40%.  That's partly why cell phones always seem to run for two days on the first 80% of a charge and only last a few minutes in the final 20% of a charge.

 

All I care about is an estimation on how much juice left in my lithium battery. That could also mean remaining amp/hours. Regardless, I know that these devices don't give out perfectly accurate readings but they do get VERY close, whether it be from a built in Bluetooth on the battery's BMS or a stand alone Bluetooth shunt like the Victron, they give a pretty good idea on what the charge state is. That's good enough for me. So far, the reliability of these readings have been very consistent and has made things very predictable and reassuring to do what I do out in the everglades.....or anywhere else, for that matter. If I didn't have any of that  information, I'd no doubt alter my tactics or just guess at things 

[TnRiver46]

17 hours ago, Bankc said:

See, I would argue the opposite.  That if it's that critical to you, then you shouldn't ever put yourself into a situation where you're having to monitor the charge.  The reason being that there's no accurate way to know the charge in a lithium battery.  The best you can do is measure the amount of current drawn over time from the battery, and make an estimate based on that.  But that requires a consistent and predictable charge being put into the battery to begin with.  And the charge and operating temperatures, cells' age and health, and variations from battery to battery from the factory will change all of that.  So if it reads 25% full, it might actually be at 10% or 40%.  That's partly why cell phones always seem to run for two days on the first 80% of a charge and only last a few minutes in the final 20% of a charge.

Easy solution for that scenario: don’t go further than you can paddle back 

[Capt Ed]

On 2/23/2023 at 7:18 AM, choppertime said:

Shopping for a lithium battery for a fishing kayak,,,minn kota endura c2 30 lb thrust. I never realized how many different vendors were selling theses batteries. Do I need to get a marine specific deep cycle or ? My old ass (68) can't handle transporting the lead acid batteries any more way to heavy, there's other issues that account for me not wanting to handle those heavy batteries but that's another story. There has to be 1 overall winner but each says theirs is better(normal sales pitch) plus some 12 volt 100 Amp hour batteries are $299.-$999. What a challenge trying to decide. Anyway thanks for any input.... I also have a bass raider 10e with a traxss 55 lb thrust so battery would serve double duty. 

Call Bill at https://www.impulselithium.com/ or Andy at https://drewcraft.com/, either one will take the time to discuss your needs and recommend a solution.  Both provide great customer service and usually provide a decent discount for fishing forum members.  

 

[airshot]

On 2/23/2023 at 7:54 AM, MN Fisher said:

Most LiFePo4 batteries you'll buy are made in China or at least have Chinese cells. Dakota and Battleborn are mostly US made, but you pay for it.

 

Personally - I've had no issues with my Mighty Max AGMs and when I move to Lithium they're the brand I'll get.

https://www.amazon.com/Mighty-Max-Battery-Replaces-Trolling/dp/B07PFY34H6

I too have had great sucess with the mighty max batteries, my current one is over 7 years old, just a std agm sealed battery but been awesome!!  

[gim]

I assume that most of these lithium marine batteries have a 10 year warranty, don't they?  Could a guy buy one, use it for 5-8 years, and then just return it for a new one?  I feel like there's a bit of a loop hole here.