High pressure vs Low pressure knots

[WRB]

Palomar knot (named after a fireman who lived in Palomar) uses 2 line wraps around the hook eye and single line hitch to tighten the knot. If the double line around the hook eye gets crossed over (by twisting the loop) the line get flatten weakening it. 

The San Diego Jam knot* uses a single line around the hook eye with 5 to 6 wraps around the line snugged up then slides down the line until it stops and clinched tight. If the sliding wrap is too tight it can over heat from friction flattening the knot when clinched tight at the hook eye wrap.

Nearly all knots fail from being tied incorrectly at the hook eye evidenced by a curl at the line end.

 We all occasionally experience knots failure, do to operator error.

Tom

*double SD Jam knot uses2 wraps around the hook eye.

[garroyo130]

2 hours ago, MOYO Bassin said:

A high pressure knot has fewer wraps generally speaking and relies on the knot almost locking itself into place like a palomar does opposed to a low pressure cinching knot that uses a large amount of wraps to disperse force over a larger distance and doesn’t have the same inherent locking characteristics. 

 

I dont understand ... so 

 

many wraps = low pressure

few wraps = high pressure

 

so even though an improved clinch and palomar both have the line doubled at the eye, one is high pressure and the other low? 

 

but a snell knot and improved clinch which strain in different ways are both low pressure? actually you didnt mention snell but IMO thats one of the few knots I would consider low pressure myself 

 

are you referring to the force needed to seat the knot??

high pressure = pull hard to seat it

low pressure = pull not as hard?

[MOYO Bassin]

5 hours ago, garroyo130 said:

 

I dont understand ... so 

 

many wraps = low pressure

few wraps = high pressure

 

so even though an improved clinch and palomar both have the line doubled at the eye, one is high pressure and the other low? 

 

but a snell knot and improved clinch which strain in different ways are both low pressure? actually you didnt mention snell but IMO thats one of the few knots I would consider low pressure myself 

 

are you referring to the force needed to seat the knot??

high pressure = pull hard to seat it

low pressure = pull not as hard?

I’m not extremely educated on the topic (only a bit of cruising the web, probably should dig into it a bit more), but from what I’ve understood cinching pressure required to seat a knot doesn’t really apply to the term “high or low pressure knot”, the way that the force is dispersed throughout a knot when applied is what determines the association. The direction of the force doesn’t really matter, for example both a snell, cinch, uni, sdj, or any other multi wrap knot work by dispersing force applied to the mainline by having many wraps that compress as pressure is applied, which applies a low amount of pressure to each wrap within what ultimately makes up the entire knot. On the contrary a knot like a palomar or something else of a similar sort (can’t really think of another) works by having the extra loop that the hook passes through act as the end all be all of the knot so besides the half hitch portion of the knot and the loop that the hook passes through there aren’t any extra wraps to disperse force as it is applied. Now with a mono or supple fluoro the snap of a slack line hookset (which is ineffective for many reasons but I won’t delve into that) doesn’t really apply a massive surge of force in comparison to a stiff fluoro which is where it seems like issues arise. When a low stretch fluoro is made into a palomar and shocked by a slack line set or other event, even when cinched to nearly the breaking point, the knot is held under high pressure and almost explodes like glass when enough pressure is reached, this happens because the knot cuts into itself(my theory is that the wrap that the hook goes through basically rips through the beefy part of the knot and explodes it based on how I’ve seen them break just trying to break them in hand in varying ways). Now the thing is that a palomar tests out higher than other knots on a slow pull and anytime that pressure is applied in a way that doesn’t shock the line, the knot it is immensely strong. Whether the added security of slack line and surging fish shock protection warrants tying a low pressure knot is something I’m still trying to figure out (also especially with big baits it gets old cutting a few feet of line off every time but ultimately is something that doesn’t bother me because it’s necessary). Now I know that I’m overthinking this but it is fun to hear what people think about both my overthinking and some objective stuff about knots from a few. 

6 hours ago, WRB said:

WPalomar knot (named after a fireman who lived in Palomar) uses 2 line wraps around the hook eye and single line hitch to tighten the knot. If the double line around the hook eye gets crossed over (by twisting the loop) the line get flatten weakening it. 

The San Diego Jam knot* uses a single line around the hook eye with 5 to 6 wraps around the line snugged up then slides down the line until it stops and clinched tight. If the sliding wrap is too tight it can over heat from friction flattening the knot when clinched tight at the hook eye wrap.

Nearly all knots fail from being tied incorrectly at the hook eye evidenced by a curl at the line end.

 We all occasionally experience knots failure, do to operator error.

Tom

*double SD Jam knot uses2 wraps around the hook eye.

Yup, the crossing of lines is the death of a knot. If I ever see that it’s cut off and redone immediately without question. As far as knot strength goes I’ve seen before that any doubled knot or doubled around the hook eye knot will test higher than its single wrap counterpart. (Diminishing returns with super heavy line but that’s not very bass related)

6 hours ago, BrianMDTX said:

I’ve never heard the term myself. Googling it shows one hit: this thread on BR lol. 

I’ve just heard it on a few videos from tuna and a few other guys, it’s possible that it’s a descriptor that they came up with without substantive evidence but the way they described it made sense. Not sure if I’d even be able to find where I heard it anymore but the concept at least in my mind checks out. 

[Deleted account]

Thought #2: Wow.

[Functional]

I get where you are going but that is so far into the weeds you should be pulling up dinosaur bones.

 

The knot, mostly is there to keep the line from slipping. Knots that do that while keeping the line straight to the hook the straightest without any kinks will be stronger. Once you go bending or cutting into that main line you are putting forces on it that will make it break quicker. If you do any engineering think of free body diagrams and cross section thickness, should be pretty clear pretty fast why some knots hold better than others. Adding shock just magnifies a knots problems. Also, shock weight is different than static weight, look at safety harnesses for people. The lifeline is rated many times greater than the persons weight because adding speed (momentum) (the fall for harnesses, slackline hooksets for fishing) drives the need for higher ratings. 

 

personally, Palomar for braid, SDJ for everything else. FG for leaders and when I tie hooks for my nephew worm fishing I use a fisherman's knot just for nostalgia.

[PressuredFishing]

23 minutes ago, Functional said:

get where you are going but that is so far into the weeds you should be pulling up dinosaur bones

Lol yeah this is above my pay grade, I remember somebody telling me that the strongest knot is the one you can consistently tie most often, because human error is going to be the biggest problem

[Bankc]

13 hours ago, MOYO Bassin said:

I’m not extremely educated on the topic (only a bit of cruising the web, probably should dig into it a bit more), but from what I’ve understood cinching pressure required to seat a knot doesn’t really apply to the term “high or low pressure knot”, the way that the force is dispersed throughout a knot when applied is what determines the association. The direction of the force doesn’t really matter, for example both a snell, cinch, uni, sdj, or any other multi wrap knot work by dispersing force applied to the mainline by having many wraps that compress as pressure is applied, which applies a low amount of pressure to each wrap within what ultimately makes up the entire knot. On the contrary a knot like a palomar or something else of a similar sort (can’t really think of another) works by having the extra loop that the hook passes through act as the end all be all of the knot so besides the half hitch portion of the knot and the loop that the hook passes through there aren’t any extra wraps to disperse force as it is applied. Now with a mono or supple fluoro the snap of a slack line hookset (which is ineffective for many reasons but I won’t delve into that) doesn’t really apply a massive surge of force in comparison to a stiff fluoro which is where it seems like issues arise. When a low stretch fluoro is made into a palomar and shocked by a slack line set or other event, even when cinched to nearly the breaking point, the knot is held under high pressure and almost explodes like glass when enough pressure is reached, this happens because the knot cuts into itself(my theory is that the wrap that the hook goes through basically rips through the beefy part of the knot and explodes it based on how I’ve seen them break just trying to break them in hand in varying ways). Now the thing is that a palomar tests out higher than other knots on a slow pull and anytime that pressure is applied in a way that doesn’t shock the line, the knot it is immensely strong. Whether the added security of slack line and surging fish shock protection warrants tying a low pressure knot is something I’m still trying to figure out (also especially with big baits it gets old cutting a few feet of line off every time but ultimately is something that doesn’t bother me because it’s necessary). Now I know that I’m overthinking this but it is fun to hear what people think about both my overthinking and some objective stuff about knots from a few. 

Yup, the crossing of lines is the death of a knot. If I ever see that it’s cut off and redone immediately without question. As far as knot strength goes I’ve seen before that any doubled knot or doubled around the hook eye knot will test higher than its single wrap counterpart. (Diminishing returns with super heavy line but that’s not very bass related)

I’ve just heard it on a few videos from tuna and a few other guys, it’s possible that it’s a descriptor that they came up with without substantive evidence but the way they described it made sense. Not sure if I’d even be able to find where I heard it anymore but the concept at least in my mind checks out. 

You're definitely overthinking this.  But talking to saltwater guys and gals will do that to you.  

 

What's more important than type of knot is how well you tie it.  You would think that everyone who ties the same knot will get the same results.  But it doesn't work out this way.  And yes, different types of knots will work better with different types of line.  And two different brands of the same type of line might have different knot properties.  So in theory, you could run your own tests and figure out which knots work best for you in which situations.  But most of us just use the knots we're most comfortable with, because we rarely have problems with knots breaking or coming untied.  And when we do, it's usually the fault of tying the knot incorrectly, not retying the knot often enough, or using the wrong kind of line for the situation, rather than using an inferior knot. 

 

What I'm saying is, try not to get too bogged down in theory, as it has little practical application.  

[Susky River Rat]

I use two knots. One to attach to baits and one to attach my leader to main line. What they are called no clue. B lat always said the best knot you can tie is the one you know how to tie. 

[MOYO Bassin]

2 hours ago, Functional said:

I get where you are going but that is so far into the weeds you should be pulling up dinosaur bones.

 

The knot, mostly is there to keep the line from slipping. Knots that do that while keeping the line straight to the hook the straightest without any kinks will be stronger. Once you go bending or cutting into that main line you are putting forces on it that will make it break quicker. If you do any engineering think of free body diagrams and cross section thickness, should be pretty clear pretty fast why some knots hold better than others. Adding shock just magnifies a knots problems. Also, shock weight is different than static weight, look at safety harnesses for people. The lifeline is rated many times greater than the persons weight because adding speed (momentum) (the fall for harnesses, slackline hooksets for fishing) drives the need for higher ratings. 

 

personally, Palomar for braid, SDJ for everything else. FG for leaders and when I tie hooks for my nephew worm fishing I use a fisherman's knot just for nostalgia.

Yes the comparison to a FBD checks out perfectly and hard bends certainly are the Demise of any knot. Shock vs static pressure is also something that changes many things and part of the reason of my original concern is that at one point another unintentional shock will be placed upon line. Really what it comes down to is that I like to get the wheels turning being an engineering student and try to break down what is the reasoning behind why some knots work in certain ways and some work in others all to ultimately achieve the same goal, not breaking under load of varying kinds. 

27 minutes ago, Bankc said:

You're definitely overthinking this.  But talking to saltwater guys and gals will do that to you.  

 

What's more important than type of knot is how well you tie it.  You would think that everyone who ties the same knot will get the same results.  But it doesn't work out this way.  And yes, different types of knots will work better with different types of line.  And two different brands of the same type of line might have different knot properties.  So in theory, you could run your own tests and figure out which knots work best for you in which situations.  But most of us just use the knots we're most comfortable with, because we rarely have problems with knots breaking or coming untied.  And when we do, it's usually the fault of tying the knot incorrectly, not retying the knot often enough, or using the wrong kind of line for the situation, rather than using an inferior knot. 

 

What I'm saying is, try not to get too bogged down in theory, as it has little practical application.  

Tying a knot correctly is huge. For all I know a crossed palomar might be weaker than a correctly tied clinch which kills the point of even having a strong knot. Tying whatever knot you choose correctly can’t be overstated. 

[Bankbeater]

I tie a palomar knot and a uni knot.  I don't think I would want to run the line through the eye more than twice.  Depending on the line diameter and the size of the eye, the line could cross over itself and cut into itself weakening the knot.