I’m sorry for all of the posts but I am sort of confused and receiving conflicting information. Everything I’d read and heard up to this point has said people throw 6” Bull Shads and other small swimbaits (1-3 oz) on traditional swimbait rods

[Ohioguy25]

29 minutes ago, Big Hands said:

 

I once thought that might be an absolute truth, but every rod has a sweet spot that is usually like the filling of an oreo cookie with regards to what it is rated for, if that rating is close to being truly accurate. 

 

As you get into the outer limits of the range of a rod's true sweet spot, the results become less satisfying. A rod needs to load up with energy, and then release that energy during the cast. A broomstick doesn't do that very well no matter how hard I try. When you get into the outer edges of what a rod is capable of, it either loads up too much, or not enough and casting suffers. (EDIT: and Choporoz has just posted what I think is the same opinion while I was busy being my usual verbose self). And, I am not an engineer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

And then, after that dilemma is reconciled, there is the ergonomics, retrieve, and fighting a fish that should be considered as well. There are often compromises to be made for these factors.

 

The good news is that myriad others have already been through this and share enough experience for you to get in the game and then figure out what works best for you.

 

Even though I know this, I still do a lot of hand-wringing over rod and reel purchases, so I can empathize with you going through that. 

Thank you, these responses have all been very informative, I think I’m beginning to get a grasp on how this all works.  Does casting from a seated position in a kayak change this dynamic, that is would I need more stiffness or backbone for overhead casting where side lobbing is more difficult?

[PhishLI]

1 hour ago, Ohioguy25 said:

I’d prefer not to be forced to “lob” them.

You're missing the point here. It was an example. "How" you'll be fishing, sitting down, is automatically self-limiting. Therefore, if you trust what Trey at Kistler told you, you'll be ok.

[Ohioguy25]

39 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

You're missing the point here. It was an example. "How" you'll be fishing, sitting down, is automatically self-limiting. Therefore, if you trust what Trey at Kistler told you, you'll be ok.

No I gotcha, I’m just wondering which is easier sitting down between overhead and side-casting/lobbing.

[PhishLI]

19 minutes ago, Ohioguy25 said:

I’m just wondering which is easier sitting down between overhead and side-casting/lobbing.

Your wingspan and the rod's handle length will determine that.

[Aaron_H]

 

How could you lie to us like this? ?

 

I get it, and the 'analysis paralysis' can be hard to get out of. You've got some really great advice here, just gotta make that jump into trying something out. If it doesn't work out, can always try to exchange, repurpose, sell to another member, etc. But at least you will have a stronger idea of what the next move will be.

[rangerjockey]

100%. In the wind up it's just a fishing rod. No one's life hangs in the balance. 

 

[Bluebasser86]

On 2/1/2023 at 12:44 PM, Ohioguy25 said:

No I gotcha, I’m just wondering which is easier sitting down between overhead and side-casting/lobbing.

I side-arm cast swimbaits from my kayak for the most part. They're heavy baits, lob cast is about all you can do, but you can still perfect a gentle lob cast so it doesn't sound like you're throwing rocks every cast. 

 

All the baits you listed, I fish on a Dobyn's 795 that's listed 1-5oz, with the sweet spot being those baits in the 2-3.5oz range. The Bull Shad especially is going to be pushing a rod rated to 2oz. I have not fishing any Kistler rods, I know they're very well made rods, but buying a rod to push to max capacity every cast seems like it's asking for heartache. I wouldn't be surprised if the other rod you were looking at is too stiff though if it's not a specific swimbait rod, it's possibly more of a flipping/punching rod which don't make great swimbait rods in most cases because they don't flex much and tear hooks out. 

[BrianMDTX]

I don’t fish from a kayak-I have a small inflatable boat. But it has a 7” pedestal with a seat so it’s likely close to the height of a fishing yak. 90% of my casts are sidearm unless I’m out in open water casting bigger baits. 

[Jrob78]

7 hours ago, Bluebasser86 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the other rod you were looking at is too stiff though if it's not a specific swimbait rod, it's possibly more of a flipping/punching rod which don't make great swimbait rods in most cases because they don't flex much and tear hooks out. 

I'm glad you said this because I thought the same thing. The 2 Kistler rods have very short handles, which to me does not indicate that they are swimbait rods. Especially because Kistler does sell actually swimbait rods that are set up like swimbait rods. 

 

For the weights and baits you are after, I would look at one of the Dobyn's 795's, the Daiwa Rebellion 7'11" swimbait or the Evergreen Combat 7'8" swimbait rod. They all excel at 1.5-3oz hardbaits and don't cost a fortune. 

[PhishLI]

2 hours ago, Jrob78 said:

I'm glad you said this because I thought the same thing. The 2 Kistler rods have very short handles

I have nothing to say about these particular Kistlers other than I agree with the concept of using the shortest, practical handle on a yak where I can't stand and cast. This isn't an original idea. St. Croix,13, and others have yak-specific rods with shorter than usual handles for a good reason.

 

I had a FR795SB. I fish out of a small yak that really isn't good for standing up on, and that rod was killing my left wrist and shoulder. It was its handle's length which is pretty standard for a dedicated swimbait rod. I moved to an iRod Swimbait Jr. 7'8" for my yak with its much shorter handle and my troubles vanished instantly.

 

My buddy who's a serious swimbaiter and yak fisherman, and also casts righty like me, has the FR795, and other standard swimbait rods with handle lengths ranging between 21" to 23". He's been having real problems lately with his left shoulder, wrist, and elbow, but hadn't connected the dots. I'll be lending him the iRod when he gets back from the stick marsh next week. I have a good feeling that his problems will be reduced or solved.

 

I'm not claiming that this is an issue for everyone. I'm saying that it might be for some. It was for me, and I quickly resolved it by choosing a rod with a shorter handle for my yak swimbaiting.

[Jrob78]

1 minute ago, PhishLI said:

I have nothing to say about these particular Kistlers other than I agree with the concept of using the shortest, practical handle on a yak where I can't stand and cast. This isn't an original idea. St. Croix,13, and others have yak-specific rods with shorter than usual handles for a good reason.

 

I had a FR795SB. I fish out of a small yak that really isn't good for standing up on, and that rod was killing my left wrist and shoulder. It was its handle's length which is pretty standard for a dedicated swimbait rod. I moved to an iRod Swimbait Jr. 7'8" for my yak with its much shorter handle and my troubles vanished instantly.

 

My buddy who's a serious swimbaiter and yak fisherman, and also casts righty like me, has the FR795, and other standard swimbait rods with handle lengths ranging between 21" to 23". He's been having real problems lately with his left shoulder, wrist, and elbow, but hadn't connected the dots. I'll be lending him the iRod when he gets back from the stick marsh next week. I have a good feeling that his problems will be reduced or solved.

 

I'm not claiming that this is an issue for everyone. I'm saying that it might be for some. It was for me, and I quickly resolved it by choosing a rod with a shorter handle for my yak swimbaiting.

I definitely understand wanting a shorter handle for kayak fishing. My comment was just based on those rods not being swimbait specific rods, which they may or not be, and it may or not even matter, I’ve never handled them either. 

[PhishLI]

22 hours ago, Jrob78 said:

My comment was just based on those rods not being swimbait specific rods, which they may or not be, and it may or not even matter

I won't say specifics are unimportant, but that they typically matter less than most of us think. Drag management and line selection(stretch) can be used to work around a rod's nature. There are lots of swimbait rods in my orbit, and like any other rods their actions and powers are all over the place. Swimbait rods are to standard rods like inshore rods are to standard rods, but there's crossover in a standard rod when they're higher power.

 

Several years ago I bought a Tatula XT 7'3" HF for frogs. I thought it was a turd for this application. Too stiff and not enough tip, so I would overpower the cast trying to get a standard-weight frog out there. It was relegated to jig pitching duty on the boat. If the stars align perfectly I'm on the boat once every two weeks, so the XT mostly sat idle.

 

A few of the lakes I wade have huge trees overhanging the shoreline. I can only wade out so far to avoid them on the backcast, and my regular dedicated swimbait rods are just too long. Daiwa has or had a Tatula 7'3" swimbait stick, but I just didn't feel like rolling the dice on it. I decided to throw a swimbait reel on the XT instead to see what's what. I spooled on 20lb Big Game. It has decent stretch. Between that and drag management I've barely lost any fish throwing hard baits up to 2 ozs. Besides that, I actually like using it for this purpose. I'm often ripping casts with full force, and it hasn't broken yet after 3 seasons using it this way. Would I rather use my DC794 in this circumstance if it was possible? The answer is yes, but I'm not suffering at all using the XT this way.

[Ohioguy25]

11 hours ago, Bluebasser86 said:

I side-arm cast swimbaits from my kayak for the most part. They're heavy baits, lob cast is about all you can do, but you can still perfect a gentle lob cast so it doesn't sound like you're throwing rocks every cast. 

 

All the baits you listed, I fish on a Dobyn's 795 that's listed 1-5oz, with the sweet spot being those baits in the 2-3.5oz range. The Bull Shad especially is going to be pushing a rod rated to 2oz. I have not fishing any Kistler rods, I know they're very well made rods, but buying a rod to push to max capacity every cast seems like it's asking for heartache. I wouldn't be surprised if the other rod you were looking at is too stiff though if it's not a specific swimbait rod, it's possibly more of a flipping/punching rod which don't make great swimbait rods in most cases because they don't flex much and tear hooks out. 

Thanks ??

3 hours ago, Jrob78 said:

I'm glad you said this because I thought the same thing. The 2 Kistler rods have very short handles, which to me does not indicate that they are swimbait rods. Especially because Kistler does sell actually swimbait rods that are set up like swimbait rods. 

 

For the weights and baits you are after, I would look at one of the Dobyn's 795's, the Daiwa Rebellion 7'11" swimbait or the Evergreen Combat 7'8" swimbait rod. They all excel at 1.5-3oz hardbaits and don't cost a fortune. 

Thanks, I’ll check them out!

36 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

I have nothing to say about these particular Kistlers other than I agree with the concept of using the shortest, practical handle on a yak where I can't stand and cast. This isn't an original idea. St. Croix,13, and others have yak-specific rods with shorter than usual handles for a good reason.

 

I had a FR795SB. I fish out of a small yak that really isn't good for standing up on, and that rod was killing my left wrist and shoulder. It was its handle's length which is pretty standard for a dedicated swimbait rod. I moved to an iRod Swimbait Jr. 7'8" for my yak with its much shorter handle and my troubles vanished instantly.

 

My buddy who's a serious swimbaiter and yak fisherman, and also casts righty like me, has the FR795, and other standard swimbait rods with handle lengths ranging between 21" to 23". He's been having real problems lately with his left shoulder, wrist, and elbow, but hadn't connected the dots. I'll be lending him the iRod when he gets back from the stick marsh next week. I have a good feeling that his problems will be reduced or solved.

 

I'm not claiming that this is an issue for everyone. I'm saying that it might be for some. It was for me, and I quickly resolved it by choosing a rod with a shorter handle for my yak swimbaiting.

Yeah I’ve been eyeing that Swimbait Jr., looks to fit the bill pretty perfectly but the reviews were less than stellar on TW.  A few people talking about it being too stiff, not an issue you’ve found?

[PhishLI]

3 minutes ago, Ohioguy25 said:

A few people talking about it being too stiff, not an issue you’ve found?

Nope. It's actually too soft for stretchy line like BigGame, IMO. Had to go to Izorline xxx for some of the heavier treble hooks.

[Deleted account]

41 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

Nope. It's actually too soft for stretchy line like BigGame, IMO. Had to go to Izorline xxx for some of the heavier treble hooks.

 

Interesting, I found XXX has more stretch than BG and fishes a bit spongier, though not a huge difference. I like both.

[PhishLI]

1 hour ago, Deleted account said:

I found XXX has more stretch than BG

Depends on the test. Oddly it doesn't track as you'd think.

[badfish79]

On 1/31/2023 at 12:31 PM, Ohioguy25 said:

Gotcha, it’s just tough to “try out” rods before buying them.

I return or exchange almost 80% of the rods I buy at TW. They have a pretty good policy for that. I try to test the rod asap so I know if I want to keep it or not, and keep all plastics on the handles so they dont have problems with putting it back on the market.