New Mercury electric outboards - an interesting path.

[Further North]

https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/wisconsin-based-company-mercury-marine-introduces-first-fully-electric-boat-motor?_amp=true&fbclid=IwAR2-emysbck_rofLrlz1b4wiG_uXu378hZgOh6p4FFgSxgGFPtQ9ZpTGBao

Try not to get distracted by the title, they mean Mercury's first electric outboard.

Specs and more info here: https://www.mercurymarine.com/en/us/land/mercury-avator-electric-outboards/

None has any idea of price yet, so wild guesses at that will be speculation.

[casts_by_fly]

It’s basically a mercury electric to compete with the specs of the epropulsion spirit 1.0. Roughly 3 hp equivalent with a 1kw disconnectable battery unit. If a 3hp motor is enough for your needs, then it might be an interesting thing. If not, then the epropulsion navy 6.0 (9.9 hp equivalent) might just do the trick. If I were to build a boat for local fishing, that’s what I’d put in it. 

[Further North]

Yeah,  I'm excited to see one of the big names jump n the game, and hope it leads to more, and higher output electric outboards.

If they can get costs under control, and battery tech continues to improve, it'll be game changer.

I like thinking about the ability to run quietly at speed.

[WIGuide]

26 minutes ago, Further North said:

Yeah,  I'm excited to see one of the big names jump n the game, and hope it leads to more, and higher output electric outboards.

If they can get costs under control, and battery tech continues to improve, it'll be game changer.

I like thinking about the ability to run quietly at speed.

Maybe you want one of the new Vision Marine outboards instead then. 
https://visionmarinetechnologies.com/vision-marines-record-breaking-v32-boat-nominated-at-the-2022-gustave-trouve-awards-for-excellence-in-electric-boats-and-boating/

[Further North]

1 hour ago, WIGuide said:

Maybe you want one of the new Vision Marine outboards instead then. 
https://visionmarinetechnologies.com/vision-marines-record-breaking-v32-boat-nominated-at-the-2022-gustave-trouve-awards-for-excellence-in-electric-boats-and-boating/

Holy wow!

That's a beast.

probably a little out of a retiree's budget though. ?

[WRB]

Looks like the Mercury 7.5e has about 45 min run time at wot.

Extra battery and it’s a good option for 3.5 hp boats.

Tom

[casts_by_fly]

1 hour ago, Further North said:

Yeah,  I'm excited to see one of the big names jump n the game, and hope it leads to more, and higher output electric outboards.

If they can get costs under control, and battery tech continues to improve, it'll be game changer.

I like thinking about the ability to run quietly at speed.

more investment and innovation in the area plus wider availability will make electric outboards more available to all, drive down prices, and improve capability. Those are all good for fishermen and boaters no matter if an electric outboard is for you or not. There will still be limitations on electric outboards no matter how you look at it though just due to energy density.  Much like electric cars have been redesigned around the battery packs and motors, the same will need to happen with boats.  Ignoring any serviceability problems, a boat bottom battery pack that distributes the weight appropriately and eliminates the need for ancillary batteries, improved hull designs with lighter total weights, and further improvements in batteries and motors are all needed. You don’t need a 200hp electric motor to put on the back of a 21’ triton. You need a high power electric motor and a boat that gives the benefits of a 21’ triton (ride, stability, storage, etc). 

6 minutes ago, WRB said:

Looks like the Mercury 7.5e has about 45 min run time at wot.

Extra battery and it’s a good option for 3.5 hp boats.

Tom

if it’s like most electric motors, dropping that to 85% throttle will give 3-4x the run time. Similar to full throttle on a boat vs cruising speed. 

[Further North]

15 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

if it’s like most electric motors, dropping that to 85% throttle will give 3-4x the run time. Similar to full throttle on a boat vs cruising speed. 

Yes, like the difference between running my current boat at 6,200 RPM, and 4,200 RPM.

It sips at 4,200 RPM.

[Susky River Rat]

23 hours ago, Further North said:

Yes, like the difference between running my current boat at 6,200 RPM, and 4,200 RPM.

It sips at 4,200 RPM.

I wonder how long it would take for them to get this technology on out board jets. It takes a 60hp to make 40hp at the jet. The other issue is to be on plane they need to be eating.    They are so inefficient. I love the idea of electric stuff. I do not like being forced on electric stuff. I think under the right circumstances electric will be awesome. I don’t know if there is anyone that fishes pretty boy in maryland by they have be issuing electric outboards there for quite a few years. 

[Further North]

45 minutes ago, Darnold335 said:

I wonder how long it would take for them to get this technology on out board jets. It takes a 60hp to make 40hp at the jet. The other issue is to be on plane they need to be eating.    They are so inefficient.

I think jets  and electric power are a marriage made in heaven.

 

Even better if the batteries can be separated from the power-head and used to balance the boat.

 

47 minutes ago, Darnold335 said:

I love the idea of electric stuff. I do not like being forced on electric stuff.

I agree 100%.  I try to follow the tech because of it's potential.

 

Check this out:
 

 

[slonezp]

On 1/10/2023 at 4:23 PM, Further North said:

Holy wow!

That's a beast.

probably a little out of a retiree's budget though. ?

Can your boat handle an extra 500-1000lbs in batteries?

[dodgeguy]

Electric cars and boat motors powered by lithium batteries are anything but green. The mining of the lithium is horrible for the environment. The batteries can't be recycled. They are charged by electricity produced by coal burning plants in a lot of places. If you want to kill the earth then go ahead and believe they are green.

[Further North]

3 hours ago, slonezp said:

Can your boat handle an extra 500-1000lbs in batteries?

After you delete the gas tank (250#), the lighter weight of the electric motor vs. the ICE motor (about 100#), get rid of the trolling motor batteries (195#), it's about a push.

Most people don't need the same capability in a boat that an EV needs (hundreds of miles) at anywhere near full throttle (75% will about double your battery life).

My big motor runs about 30 minutes a day anywhere around here, and maybe an hour on really big water, and I hardly ever run it over 70%.

So...yes.

Also: it's not about retrofitting old boats, it's really about building new boats around the tech.  I understand that's not in the article, but it's reality.  Old boats aren't going anywhere, but new boats, designed around the tech, will be different.
 

3 hours ago, dodgeguy said:

Electric cars and boat motors powered by lithium batteries are anything but green. The mining of the lithium is horrible for the environment. The batteries can't be recycled. They are charged by electricity produced by coal burning plants in a lot of places. If you want to kill the earth then go ahead and believe they are green.

I'm not interested in that discussion - either side of it -  only in the possibilities of the tech.

Those arguments were boring five years ago and haven't gotten any fresher since.  The same clowns on both sides pushing an agenda, talking past each other.  We'd all be better off if we locked 'em all in a room and let 'em fight it out.

...and the tech is changing fast.  Check into it...sodium ion is a good place to start.

[Susky River Rat]

12 hours ago, Further North said:

I think jets  and electric power are a marriage made in heaven.

 

Even better if the batteries can be separated from the power-head and used to balance the boat.

I think there will be more weight than an outboard but I could be wrong. This may also affect the console. I do agree that having the batteries up front would be great. The only thing there may get to be to much weight forward and you couldn’t not run a center console that is more forward like most jet boaters here prefer. the way you have to run a jet to keep it on plane is going to chew battery charge up. Some days I fish a 6 mile stretch some days a 3 miles other days I fish a 12-15 mile stretch. Most of the travel has to be on plane because of the shallow bars and rock ledges. 

[casts_by_fly]

2 hours ago, Darnold335 said:

I think there will be more weight than an outboard but I could be wrong. This may also affect the console. I do agree that having the batteries up front would be great. The only thing there may get to be to much weight forward and you couldn’t not run a center console that is more forward like most jet boaters here prefer. the way you have to run a jet to keep it on plane is going to chew battery charge up. Some days I fish a 6 mile stretch some days a 3 miles other days I fish a 12-15 mile stretch. Most of the travel has to be on plane because of the shallow bars and rock ledges. 

 

Weight distribution is why boats will need to be designed around the battery.  Look at some bassboats now that actually lose performance when swapping to lighter lithium batteries.  When you remove 4x 12V 75-100 lb batteries from the rear and replace them with 100# total of lithium (or less), the boat sits a little higher in the water in the back and you lose speed.  Bassboats are so fine tuned and engineered now that just swapping parts isn't necessarily going to work the same.

 

A 250 hp mercury weighs 500 dry (more rigged I believe).  50 gallons of gas is another 300.  A set of 4 batteries is about another 300 lb.  That's 1100 lb in the back of a bassboat. That's the same weight as the battery pack in a top spec Tesla (roughly 120 kWh of capacity which is more than a boat would need).  As a quick comparison, the E-motion 180 plus battery pack is 1300#.  So the weight isn't far different and will only go down.  I don't think bassboats are the first place that will have fully electric designs though.  I think the weekend warrior boat is the right place to start (which Lund is kinda doing).  Similar to electric cars, the vast majority of users are well within the limits of an electric version.  With an electric boat, the charging doesn't have to happen in 10-30 minutes because you'll charge at home.  Give me 2 hours of run time (at 20 mph or so) on an electric 9.9 and 16' aluminum and I'll fish anything around me perfectly.

[A-Jay]

Just as a matter of reference, I run 4 group 31M Blue tops.

The starting battery is in the stern and the other three

are dead on the centerline in the middle of the boat.

(under the center rod locker)

My hull is lighter and positioning them here is very good for both stability & handling.

If they had not been there originally,

I'd have moved them there.

A heavily weighted stern rig is not the best case scenario IMO.

It's all about balance, the rest I can control with the trim.

YMMV

A-Jay

[Further North]

4 hours ago, Darnold335 said:

think there will be more weight than an outboard but I could be wrong.

Generally speaking, electric motors are lighter than ICE motors of similar output.

...but battery needs for a jet might be greater than for a propped motor because of the need to keep the jet closer to max revs.

It'll be interesting to see the tech work itself out.

2 hours ago, casts_by_fly said:

 

Weight distribution is why boats will need to be designed around the battery.  Look at some bassboats now that actually lose performance when swapping to lighter lithium batteries.  When you remove 4x 12V 75-100 lb batteries from the rear and replace them with 100# total of lithium (or less), the boat sits a little higher in the water in the back and you lose speed.  Bassboats are so fine tuned and engineered now that just swapping parts isn't necessarily going to work the same.

 

A 250 hp mercury weighs 500 dry (more rigged I believe).  50 gallons of gas is another 300.  A set of 4 batteries is about another 300 lb.  That's 1100 lb in the back of a bassboat. That's the same weight as the battery pack in a top spec Tesla (roughly 120 kWh of capacity which is more than a boat would need).  As a quick comparison, the E-motion 180 plus battery pack is 1300#.  So the weight isn't far different and will only go down.  I don't think bassboats are the first place that will have fully electric designs though.  I think the weekend warrior boat is the right place to start (which Lund is kinda doing).  Similar to electric cars, the vast majority of users are well within the limits of an electric version.  With an electric boat, the charging doesn't have to happen in 10-30 minutes because you'll charge at home.  Give me 2 hours of run time (at 20 mph or so) on an electric 9.9 and 16' aluminum and I'll fish anything around me perfectly.

You've done your homework.
 

I know two people who have gone to lithium and had problems with how their boats plane out.

My boat was really set up to run with two trolling motor batteries, and one starting/electronics battery, and I run it with three trolling motor batteries, a starting battery, and a dedicated electronics battery...all lead acid at this point.  I am considering how I might re-arrange that using one or two lithiums...

1 hour ago, A-Jay said:

Just as a matter of reference, I run 4 group 31M Blue tops.

The starting battery is in the stern and the other three

are dead on the centerline in the middle of the boat.

(under the center rod locker)

My hull is lighter and positioning them here is very good for both stability & handling.

If they had not been there originally,

I'd have moved them there.

A heavily weighted stern rig is not the best case scenario IMO.

It's all about balance, the rest I can control with the trim.

YMMV

A-Jay

My boat is set up the same way.

Great for running and for storage, but those batteries are a PITA to get to.

[A-Jay]

22 minutes ago, Further North said:

Generally speaking, electric motors are lighter than ICE motors of similar output.

...but battery needs for a jet might be greater than for a propped motor because of the need to keep the jet closer to max revs.

It'll be interesting to see the tech work itself out.

You've done your homework.
 

I know two people who have gone to lithium and had problems with how their boats plane out.

My boat was really set up to run with two trolling motor batteries, and one starting/electronics battery, and I run it with three trolling motor batteries, a starting battery, and a dedicated electronics battery...all lead acid at this point.  I am considering how I might re-arrange that using one or two lithiums...

My boat is set up the same way.

Great for running and for storage, but those batteries are a PITA to get to.

I just lift that cover and everything's right there.   Maintenance free batteries help.

A-Jay

[casts_by_fly]

18 minutes ago, Further North said:

You've done your homework.
 

I know two people who have gone to lithium and had problems with how their boats plane out.

My boat was really set up to run with two trolling motor batteries, and one starting/electronics battery, and I run it with three trolling motor batteries, a starting battery, and a dedicated electronics battery...all lead acid at this point.  I am considering how I might re-arrange that using one or two lithiums...

My boat is set up the same way.

 

I have.  We have an electric car and I run lithiums in my kayak (motor and FF).  I've weighed out gas vs electric for cars and boat motors a few times now and I keep up on electric tech.  If at some point I am able to swap into a boat I know how I am rigging it.

 

For your situation, the starter battery is the least demanding and running a group 24 lead acid starter should be fine if you're not already.  That's about 25#.  Maybe not worth buying a new battery over, but next time you need one.  In the absolute worst case you could always jump to another battery.

 

If you want to lighten up just a little bit swapping your dedicated electronics to a lithium is probably the way to go.  I'm guessing you're running a group 27 or so there? That's a 75 lb battery for a nominal ~80 Ah capacity, though you realistically only get ~40-50 Ah of that for electronics before the voltage is below minimum threshold.  Instead you could go to a 60 AH lithium that weighs 15# and have better performance with higher sustained output voltage.  You'd save about 60# which is a good bit for a single battery swap that would be a drop in change and $350.

 

Swapping the 3 trolling batteries will be the biggest change, but will also be the biggest change ($$$).  You could save over 200# if that's important to you (also depending on what batteries you're running) but its going to cost you $1200-1800 since you have to do them all at the same time. That said, a 36V 60 Ah trolling battery for $1200 would put you back to three batteries in the storage giving you the space and weight savings.  

 

Lots of options.

 

[Further North]

46 minutes ago, A-Jay said:

I just lift that cover and everything's right there.   Maintenance free batteries help.

A-Jay

I have to take out all the rods, open the cover, work in a narrow confining space with poor lighting, close the cover, then put all the rods (over 20) back in.

It works the same in my friend's Pro-V Bass.

It's the best location for the batteries, hands down, but it's not easy to access.

[Further North]

44 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

For your situation, the starter battery is the least demanding and running a group 24 lead acid starter should be fine if you're not already.  That's about 25#.  Maybe not worth buying a new battery over, but next time you need one.  In the absolute worst case you could always jump to another battery.

I'm already running a group 24 there, and it's only a few years old.  When I added the electronics-only battery, I changed to the 24 at the same time to try to save a bit of weight.

 

 

46 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

If you want to lighten up just a little bit swapping your dedicated electronics to a lithium is probably the way to go.  I'm guessing you're running a group 27 or so there? That's a 75 lb battery for a nominal ~80 Ah capacity, though you realistically only get ~40-50 Ah of that for electronics before the voltage is below minimum threshold.  Instead you could go to a 60 AH lithium that weighs 15# and have better performance with higher sustained output voltage.  You'd save about 60# which is a good bit for a single battery swap that would be a drop in change and $350.

That's the plan when the battery I have (only two seasons old) goes bad.  I changed my charger to a Minn Kota PCL last summer to be ready for that move.

 

 

48 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

Swapping the 3 trolling batteries will be the biggest change, but will also be the biggest change ($$$).  You could save over 200# if that's important to you (also depending on what batteries you're running) but its going to cost you $1200-1800 since you have to do them all at the same time. That said, a 36V 60 Ah trolling battery for $1200 would put you back to three batteries in the storage giving you the space and weight savings.  

I had been looking hard at LiFePo4 batteries for the trolling motor, but I was kind of forced into new lead acid when one of my existing batteries died on me up in Canada this summer.  I had to replace all three with what was on hand, and lithium wasn't an option.  I seem to get 7-8 years out of a set of batteries, so I won't have to make that decision for a while.

I will be deciding on the battery package for my drift boat shortly, and it'll likely be two 50Ah LiFePo4 batteries to run the 24 volt Ulterra I have for the boat.  It will only get used when I am fishing alone, and even then, not anywhere near all day...and weight in that boat is important.

[casts_by_fly]

21 minutes ago, Further North said:

I will be deciding on the battery package for my drift boat shortly, and it'll likely be two 50Ah LiFePo4 batteries to run the 24 volt Ulterra I have for the boat.  It will only get used when I am fishing alone, and even then, not anywhere near all day...and weight in that boat is important.

 

You may just want to get a 24V/50Ah.  It will save you the space of a battery and a battery box (if you box it).  It will be a little cheaper than two 50's individually.  And you won't have to wire them together.  Just connect the motor and go.  Nominally it will be a couple pounds lighter also (maybe 3-4 lb).

[Further North]

12 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

 

You may just want to get a 24V/50Ah.  It will save you the space of a battery and a battery box (if you box it).  It will be a little cheaper than two 50's individually.  And you won't have to wire them together.  Just connect the motor and go.  Nominally it will be a couple pounds lighter also (maybe 3-4 lb).

I'm considering it.

Whatever I do has to be easily removable...and it's be nice if it worked with my existing Minn Kota 3-bank PCL charger (There's a small battery on board to run the bilge pump.   I'd rather not spend that money twice.

[casts_by_fly]

33 minutes ago, Further North said:

I'm considering it.

Whatever I do has to be easily removable...and it's be nice if it worked with my existing Minn Kota 3-bank PCL charger (There's a small battery on board to run the bilge pump.   I'd rather not spend that money twice.

 

A 24V won't work with the charger you have, but the amped 24/50 comes with a charger so you don't have to buy anything else.  Since that would be your only 24V need, you could leave that one in the boat if that's an option.

 

Not sure on the wiring connections you have coming from the motor, but if its a simple ringed connection then its just two bolts and you're free if you're using a battery box and leaving the box in the boat.  In the case of my kayak, I went the other way.  I don't take out the battery to charge.  I've left a set of terminals connected to the battery with a 2-pronged plug that connects to my noco charger.  The charger stays at home, the terminals are connected to the battery in the boat.  When I get home, I just plug the charger into the plug in the boat and be done.    Super easy since my kayak lives on a cart in the garage within reach of a wall outlet.

[Further North]

8 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

A 24V won't work with the charger you have, but the amped 24/50 comes with a charger so you don't have to buy anything else.  Since that would be your only 24V need, you could leave that one in the boat if that's an option.

I'll go take a look at that.  The third battery for the bilge complicates things a bit - I don't want two chargers on board.

 

9 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

Not sure on the wiring connections you have coming from the motor, but if its a simple ringed connection then its just two bolts and you're free if you're using a battery box and leaving the box in the boat.  In the case of my kayak, I went the other way.  I don't take out the battery to charge.  I've left a set of terminals connected to the battery with a 2-pronged plug that connects to my noco charger.  The charger stays at home, the terminals are connected to the battery in the boat.  When I get home, I just plug the charger into the plug in the boat and be done.    Super easy since my kayak lives on a cart in the garage within reach of a wall outlet.

The wiring is to be determined.

The entire trolling motor and battery system will be removable for any trip with more than one person in the boat...which is most days on the water.

Wiring will drop down through the bow...

 

...then run under the raised floor to the rowing seat (the center seat in these pictures).

 

Batteries, motor, motor mount, and charger will come out when not needed, wiring will stay in the boat with some sort of easy connection on both ends - probably ring connectors on the batteries and a Minn Kota plug for the motor at the bow.

...but I'm always interested in other ideas.

Those pictures are from when the boat was new, it's had some modifications since then, but nothing that'll change how this system works.