Is Enough Enough?

[Leo Vann]

Hi! Happy Monday.

Seeing the results from Pickwick definitely don't have me in the greatest mood. I've been concerned about so much tournament pressure all across the country, and as I heard it put - "When you have 3-5 tournaments a week out of multiple ramps 12 months out of the year then host high school, college, and pro am tournaments on  these lakes all year, they will never get better"

This frightens me looking forward to the next generation of bass fishing, will it even exist? 
I'd love a discussion.

 

I make a distinction regarding looking forward to the next generation. Pickwick is generally regarded as a good example of fishing significantly slowing after constant pounding. 

I'm younger, so the threat of such trends continuing over the next 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years matters.

I do, however, understand that things will ebb and flow and are likely to sort themselves out. I do feel that restrictions on tournaments need to be priority for TPWD and other states, though.

[roadwarrior]

I have fished Pickwick and the river below the dam 15 days over the past six weeks.

Last week sucked, but otherwise the smallmouth bite has been strong, 28 being our

best day. Size has been an issue with most of our fish 2.5 - 4.5 lbs, but I have had three

monsters hooked up and saw two of them...my bad.

[Deleted account]

Nope, the fishing is going to be whatever the fishing is going to be because of man made reasons and otherwise. I show up and catch what's there to catch.

[Woody B]

1 hour ago, Leo Vann said:

I do feel that restrictions on tournaments need to be priority for TPWD and other states, though.

 

I'm with you.   Fishing pressure is one thing but dozens or even a hundred or more boats carrying a bunch of bass around all day, then finally releasing them after a weigh in and a bunch of pictures can't be good.  I suspect the mortality rate is really high.   I would like to see all tournaments weight, then release bass as they're caught.  

 

There would still be a bunch of overpowered boats running around too fast, but at least the bass mortality rate would be lower.   

[Tennessee Boy]

The best lakes around me are the ones with the most tournaments.  It's been that way for as long as I remember.  The impact of tournament fishing on fish populations has been studied to death.  This link will return 2470 links to scholarly journals on the subject of tournaments and their impact on largemouth populations.  Looks at the facts.  It should make you feel better about your concerns.

 

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C43&q=largemouth+bass+population+tournaments

 

 

 

[gim]

Luckily there are lakes around me that receive no tournament pressure at all because they are relatively small lakes with limited parking. The fish see far less pressure and the fish aren’t near as smart. My kind of bass fishing.

[MN Fisher]

Just now, gimruis said:

Luckily there are lakes around me that receive no tournament pressure at all because they are relatively small lakes with limited parking.

Reason I'm probably gonna do Dutch and Whaletail more next year. Tired of dodging the tourney boats that are running faster than the speed limit.

[gim]

Just now, MN Fisher said:

Reason I'm probably gonna do Dutch and Whaletail more next year. Tired of dodging the tourney boats that are running faster than the speed limit.

I think that’s a wise idea Ken. I realize living right on Tonka is a tempting place to fish, but it has really become tough out there in the summer time with all the pressure and boats. Not that the fishing is bad, because it’s not. But it’s just tough. I think you would have more success on some of those other nearby less pressured waters.

[Carpenater]

4 hours ago, Leo Vann said:

Hi! Happy Monday.

Seeing the results from Pickwick definitely don't have me in the greatest mood. I've been concerned about so much tournament pressure all across the country, and as I heard it put - "When you have 3-5 tournaments a week out of multiple ramps 12 months out of the year then host high school, college, and pro am tournaments on  these lakes all year, they will never get better"

This frightens me looking forward to the next generation of bass fishing, will it even exist? 
I'd love a discussion.

 

I make a distinction regarding looking forward to the next generation. Pickwick is generally regarded as a good example of fishing significantly slowing after constant pounding. 

I'm younger, so the threat of such trends continuing over the next 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years matters.

I do, however, understand that things will ebb and flow and are likely to sort themselves out. I do feel that restrictions on tournaments need to be priority for TPWD and other states, though.

How many of the boats bagged limits or even bass?  Is the answer to increase the population of bass, to meet the increase of pressure?  I don't see them decreasing tournaments, but maybe change the way they conduct them.  Instead of bagging fish, maybe adopt the CPR method?  It is done that way for online fishing tournaments.  While still catching them you are not removing them from their current habit and subjecting them to a washing machine ride in your boat until weight in.  Might also assist in the prevention of bass dying too.  

[Darth-Baiter]

asking because i dont know.

 

while i dont typically fish beds, i have taken a fish from them.   usually blind casting.  when i release the fish, they go right back.  in a tourney, you put the fish in a livewell, and cruise off.   there is  no way the fish can get back to the bed right?  they arent homing pigeons.  the nest is unguarded in whatever stage it happens to be in.    that has to be detrimental right?  

[Logan S]

1 hour ago, Darth-Baiter said:

asking because i dont know.

 

while i dont typically fish beds, i have taken a fish from them.   usually blind casting.  when i release the fish, they go right back.  in a tourney, you put the fish in a livewell, and cruise off.   there is  no way the fish can get back to the bed right?  they arent homing pigeons.  the nest is unguarded in whatever stage it happens to be in.    that has to be detrimental right?  

Once the fish is removed, the sunfish or whatever other pests the bass is keeping away will move in...Doesn't matter if you take the fish to a weigh in or let it go right there, the damage is done.  On an individual scale, sure that particular bed is effected...But on a population scale it doesn't seem to make a difference....But a 1 acre pond is different from a 50,000 acre lake so there's no 1 size fits all answer. 

 

The overall point I'd make is - This why we have DNR's to study and formulate appropriate regulations.  If DNR allows fishing and/or tournaments, I'd trust that they are comfortable with it.  The know how many tournaments are going on because most if not all states require some type of permit for an organization to hold a tournament and even if they don't require permits it's sort of within their job descriptions to at least be aware of what's happening on their waters.  

[TnRiver46]

1 hour ago, Darth-Baiter said:

   that has to be detrimental right?  

Depends on who you ask. Bass aren’t rare and people catch big ones every single day, even after 50 years of bass tournaments. They probably laugh when we feel sorry for them and they would happily eat us in one bite if they could

[gim]

1 hour ago, Logan S said:

If DNR allows fishing and/or tournaments, I'd trust that they are comfortable with it.  The know how many tournaments are going on because most if not all states require some type of permit for an organization to hold a tournament

 

Here in MN, every organized tournament is required to have a permit from the DNR whether that be a bass, walleye, crappie, muskie, or multi-species event.  Our legal bass season does not open until the middle of May, and even when it does open initially, there is a 2 week span of catch and release only; meaning you cannot place them in your livewell for a weigh in later, even if you are releasing them.  Immediate release is exactly what it represents, so bass tournaments have gone to using length instead just like kayak tournaments do all season long during this 2 week span when the season legally starts.  Apparently something as evil as using length and immediate release is still worth doing, because they can still at least have their coveted bass tournament in some format.

 

My issue is this.  If they can do it for 2 weeks in May, why can't they do it all season long?  Virtually all of the walleye tournaments here have gone to an immediate release.  And believe me, the walleye is KING here.  I know it sounds shocking that the meat hunting walleye anglers would agree and embrace this format, but they have.  Muskie tournaments are all immediate release.  Hell, even ice derbies are using this format.

 

I don't know when we reached the point in which we became hell bent on weighing a bass, but its obvious to me now, at least here in MN, that even bass tournaments can use an immediate catch and release format with length.  And we can all agree that its beneficial to use this format instead of hauling them around in a live well and weighing them, especially during spawning season and/or when the water is warmer out with higher mortality.  If we can be better about preserving our resource, we should.

[Logan S]

Full disclosure, I fish a lot of tournaments...But I also fish and help run several catch-weigh-release tournaments (for up to 50+ competitors) every season for the past 5 or 6 seasons since it became a thing.  So I speak from experience on both sides of it. 

 

42 minutes ago, gimruis said:

I don't know when we reached the point in which we became hell bent on weighing a bass

I don't think a point was reached, it's just the most effective way to operate.  For a number of logical reasons.

 

First, as much as it sucks to say it...The door for cheating is open when people are put in charge of their own honesty and you are doing that in any form of CPR or CWR tournament.  Solo anglers and Team events in particular leave this door wide open.  Bringing them back for a TD to weigh on a scale reduces this dramatically.

 

Second, if people are weighing on the water, that's all those different scales in use all in different operating conditions...You can't really expect confidence in accuracy down to the ounce across that many individual weigh ins (number of boats X however many individual fish are weighed is a huge number).  Bringing the fish back to weigh on a scale eliminates this issue.  

 

Third, because of #2, the kayak and other trails use a length system which solves some of the problems but not all.  Length doesn't really fit well in the traditional bass tournament format for one...Just as one example, a guy with five 12" bass would score the same as a guy with three 20" bass (both 60")...But the three 20"ers would weigh in the ballpark of 12-14lbs where the five 12"ers would be in the ballpark of 5 to 8 lbs.  Not AS big of an issue, but many anglers don't like this strategy shift.  Bringing the fish back to weigh on a scale eliminates this issue.

 

Fourth, equipment needs and costs get bloated.  If its a weigh on the water tournament, every boat needs to have identical scales...If length, identical rulers.  Either the anglers or the organization need to pay for and provide these, but if the anglers provide themselves, there needs to be some checks in place to ensure Point #1 above isn't in play.  If the organization provides, they need to be checked before and after each event for accuracy, so it's an increased cost and task for the organizers.  What does an angler do if his scale doesn't work?  Is he SOL?  Bringing the fish back to weigh on a scale eliminates this issue.  

 

Fifth, scorekeeping logistics is a limiting factor.  If you are transmitting photos to the TD, you've got to be in cell range and even if you are, you've got to hope your message/submission makes it through.  If you are keeping tally on a weigh sheet, entering those in at the end of the day lengthens the weigh in by 2 or 3 times.  It also brings up the question of whether the boat partner needs to verify or sign the sheet to account for Point #1 again.  Then of all things there's handwriting to consider..."Is that a 7 or 9..."  Can you find the guy to clarify?  Do you need to get his partner to verify/witness?  If you're using a 3rd party app to handle things, there's costs, logistics, and management associated with that as well.  No matter what the details are, it makes the logistics of running a tournament bloated by a significant amount.  Bringing the fish back to weigh in on a scale eliminates this issue.  

 

I could probably come up with several more, but this post is long enough to where most won't make it down this far anyway .  

 

48 minutes ago, gimruis said:

If they can do it for 2 weeks in May, why can't they do it all season long?

Can't say with any certainty, but probably because it's either deal with the headache for 1 or 2 events a year or not have any tournaments during some of the best fishing of the year.  Don't think its that big of a mystery.  

1 hour ago, gimruis said:

And we can all agree that its beneficial to use this format instead of hauling them around in a live well and weighing them

Maybe - But it's not as easy as just deciding one or the other.  For most organizations running traditional bass tournaments the CPR/CWR is not a viable option, so it's either traditional or nothing.  Which goes back to my first post....DNR is managing the situations in every state and should step in when/if needed.  If DNR says it's OK to operate this way I'm inclined to believe them.

[TnRiver46]

What’s to keep someone from submitting the same fish multiple times thru photos? 
 

also I posted in another thread, it’s nearly impossible to photograph a smallmouth with its mouth closed. Every time I’ve tried it flops all over the boat, not great for the fish either. I think the fish would be dead before I got the correct photo 

 

that brings up another point, you could spend enough time trying to get your photo that the fish is dead but probably still counts 

[gim]

33 minutes ago, Logan S said:

Second, if people are weighing on the water, that's all those different scales in use all in different operating conditions...You can't really expect confidence in accuracy down to the ounce across that many individual weigh ins

Weight is not an accurate measurement across the board unless ONE universal scale is being used.  In tournaments, this occurs at a weigh in, so your point is taken.  But quite often, even on this forum, people post they caught a 4.2 pounder based solely on the use of their own personal scale.  Let's be honest here, how many of us have actually calibrated our scales?  We put batteries in them and use them.  What one person's scale says and what another says are very likely to not be the same.  This is why I use a board instead because length is a more universal, accurate measurement.  What's 18 inches on my board is going to be 18 inches on another person's board.  As for whether the mouth is closed while measuring it in competition, I'm not familiar with the rules on that.  Maybe @Bluebasser86 can comment on that since he chronicles his kayak tournaments here regularly.

 

BASS wanted to have a smallmouth event here in September on Lake Mille Lacs and it was denied solely based upon having a weigh in.  Smallmouth harvest here ended on Sept 12 so the only fishing available was immediate catch and release format; which is why MLF was permitted to have one.

[Darth-Baiter]

thanks for the insight.  I appreciate everyones opinion.  lots to consider and there is no "one size fits all" answer.

[Logan S]

13 minutes ago, gimruis said:

But quite often, even on this forum, people post they caught a 4.2 pounder based solely on the use of their own personal scale.  Let's be honest here, how many of us have actually calibrated our scales?  We put batteries in them and use them.  What one person's scale says and what another says are very likely to not be the same.  This is why I use a board instead because length is a more universal, accurate measurement.  What's 18 inches on my board is going to be 18 inches on another person's board. 

I've seen where fish measured keeper size on an angler's board in the boat, but were thrown out because they didn't measure up on the TD's board at weigh in.  Boards can be bent, old, or otherwise inconsistent in a similar way scales can.  It's fairly common actually. 

 

Not picking on you, just pointing out that ANY scenario where you use many different 'official' measuring devices,  whether length or weight, will be prone to inconsistencies. 

[Bluebasser86]

Length tournaments are what tournaments should be in the future imo. Bass anglers will whine and cry about a person keeping a 5lb bass to eat, but have no issues hauling one around in a live well for 8 hours on a hot summer day, just to release it to die a day later of the stress from being hauled around. Either we care about the health of the fish and future of the sport, or we don't. 

 

In kayak tournaments there is an app used that all pictures must be submitted to. There are impartial judges that score all the photos that are submitted. Each picture has several criteria that must be met for the fish to count. The fish must be clearly visible (no glare from the sun blocking large portions of the fish or board), facing left with the dorsal fin up (away from you), the eye must be clear (to prove it's not dead and if the fish is blind or missing an eye, a video must be taken to show the fish is alive at the time), hands must not be covering the eye, inside the gill, or touching the tail of the fish. Only Ketch boards are allowed. Only original photos can be submitted (no edited or screenshot photos). Location must be turned on to allow the app to access where  you are when the picture is submitted. There's usually a 30ish minute grace period after lines out to allow you to get your pictures submitted if you're in an area with bad signal. Photos are all time stamped so submitting the same fish multiple times would require hanging onto it and submitting it throughout the day and that's why you must take pictures of all fish the same way so they can inspect for similar markings if fish of the same sizes are submitted. The mouth of the fish must be closed and tail fully on the board. The identifier that we're given for each day must be clearly visible in the pictures. It's a laundry list of things that you must follow to prevent cheating and then the fish is returned immediately. 

 

It also levels the playing field. I've caught 18" fish that were not even 3lbs, I've caught them that weighed over 5. In a length tournament, an 18" fish is an 18" fish, regardless of how much it has or hasn't eaten recently. 

 

Cheating is still very possible in weigh in tournaments. We just saw it in the walleye tournament. Mike Long was thought to be one of the best big bass fishermen of all time until it was discovered he was tying up fish and also had a separate compartment in his boat to hide bass. Just as recently as 2 weeks ago I saw a post of FB of a fisherman that found a fish cage in the back of a cove on very popular tournament lake in Texas. Whenever money is involved, you'll never get rid of people looking to steal it from those looking to do it the right way. 

[roadwarrior]

Great post!

 

                                                       

[TnRiver46]

And who can forget the guy in TX that carried a bass tail with him and overlapped it for the photos? People are crazy 

[Bluebasser86]

19 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

And who can forget the guy in TX that carried a bass tail with him and overlapped it for the photos? People are crazy 

There was one not long ago bending the old Ketch board in the bottom of his kayak, which is why they stopped using those ones that could be bent. Where there's a will, there's always going to be a guy figuring out a way to cheat. 

[TnRiver46]

1 minute ago, Bluebasser86 said:

There was one not long ago bending the old Ketch board in the bottom of his kayak, which is why they stopped using those ones that could be bent. Where there's a will, there's always going to be a guy figuring out a way to cheat. 

Dirtbags. Next thing it will be hackers or photoshop 

 

I’ve never looked at a fish close enough to know if two could be identical, I wonder if they pay the people that have to sort through all the photos 

[Bluebasser86]

23 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

Dirtbags. Next thing it will be hackers or photoshop 

 

I’ve never looked at a fish close enough to know if two could be identical, I wonder if they pay the people that have to sort through all the photos 

Well everyone has to pay to use the app, usually about $5 per person per tournament, so I'd assume they're getting paid.

[Fishingmickey]

37 minutes ago, Bluebasser86 said:

There was one not long ago bending the old Ketch board in the bottom of his kayak, which is why they stopped using those ones that could be bent. Where there's a will, there's always going to be a guy figuring out a way to cheat. 

Hi Blue,

     It was a Hawg Trough brand board that was involved in the bent board scandal, I don't think I could bend my Ketch polycarbonate unless I used a torch or heat gun and then it would be permanently bent. . In the Hobie BOS series it has to be the Ketch X aluminium board. Hobie doesn't allow the polycarbonate board.

FM