Extra Fast Tip - Doofus on Board

[Masaccio]

Correction -- When I said "there is a difference between fast and medium fast tips" I should have written "between fast and extra fast tips."  Thanks.    

6 hours ago, J Francho said:

This spec in any St. Croix is my go to for spinnerbaits, every time. As mentioned, it excels in many other applications. 

I want to get into spinnerbaits.  Might be awhile.  Got a couple but never used. Good to know. Thanks.  

Has anyone ranked major bass bait-types according to difficulty?  If you are a beginner trying to cast spinnerbaits, for example, that would be tragic.  You have all these experts saying all these things about the efficacy of various baits, but the relative difficulty of casting them effectively is never discussed.  It's a helluva lot easier to cast a jerkbait, for example than a spinnerbait, or a crankbait.  Senkos are often recommended but what if you want to be a beginner power fisher?  There really is a ridiculous amount of info to sort out in the beginning.  And "the beginning" can be, like, five years. 

[Masaccio]

On 10/22/2022 at 4:42 PM, JohnFromLisbon said:

First thing you need to know is there isn't an industry standard for blank action (or even power for that matter). One brand's fast might be another brand's moderate. I've only handled a couple of St. Croix rods but all of them felt "softer" (i.e. slower or more moderate) than the comparable Loomis rod, for example.

 

A St. Croix extra fast might still be okay for moving baits for example. A 6'10 medium extra-fast would be my close quarters Senko rod, for example. Finesse jigs, too. But from the sound of it you can pull off jerkbaits (altough you might want not to rip them as hard as you would on straight fluoro), poppers, smaller walking baits, and even make due for squarebills. 

As for the leader just consider if you're throwing a bottom bait or something moving. Surface baits will benefit from a thicker mono leader, partly because it floats, but mostly because it'll keep your braid from tangling in the treble hooks. 

Thanks.  I have to say that the experience that prompted this subject for me was an observable stiffness in the tip. I got the rod, unpacked it, tested it.  Obviously not soft.  Obviously connected with the body of the rod more than I expected.  

[J Francho]

Spinnerbaits are one of the baits I introduce to my students first. I always start with moving baits. They get bit, and require zero bite detection and fish almost never come unpinned. They're a huge confidence builder for them and they're easy to learn. 

Not sure what is difficult about cast a spinnerbait. Tie a 1/2 oz bait and let it rip. There's no nuance there until you decide there is. In the meantime, chuck and wind. 

[Lead Head]

If you really want to see the difference between fast and extra fast, look into CCS and AA numbers for rods. You will probably need to check on a rod building specific forum, but we have a few members here that are familiar with the process. One manufacturers fast might be another's extra fast. There most definitely isn't an industry wide standard, more like a industry wide "general idea".

 

 

[RDB]

CCS is the system (Common Cents System).  The numbers for action and power are AA and ERN, not CCS and AA.  Very few anglers are going to go to that minute of detail when purchasing a rod.

[MickD]

On 10/24/2022 at 1:59 PM, RDB said:

Just because one fast action rod flexes more in the tip than another doesn’t mean that there is some inconsistency in the manufacturers ratings.

Then how do you explain a blank manufacturer having a line of ultralights, all called "extra fast," and their CCS Action Angles vary from 53 to 77?  For those not familiar with AA, angles of about 55 are considered generally to be "slow,"  65 to be "moderate," low to mid 70's to be "fast," and above that "extra fast."  There is great inconsistency in the subjective descriptions of blanks and rods.  

[Deleted account]

12 minutes ago, MickD said:

Then how do you explain a blank manufacturer having a line of ultralights, all called "extra fast," and their CCS Action Angles vary from 53 to 77? 

That's an easy one, there is no objective definition of XF (or any other action), CCS assigns a unit to the measurement, the handful of action, let's call them descriptors used by the industry, don't. 

[Lead Head]

While I agree most anglers won't bother looking into CCS, it is a good resource for understanding how rods work. It's out there if you really want to see what's going on with different rods, and a search for CCS and AA will get you there. My apologies for failing to mention ERN.

[Deleted account]

36 minutes ago, Lead Head said:

...search for CCS and AA will get you there. My apologies for failing to mention ERN.

 

I'm responding no to the R.S.V.P. vaccine...

[bulldog1935]

Offering some rod taper considerations, which go back to splitting and planing bamboo strips (split cane has an equivalent modulus to S-glass). 

 

Fast tip pretty much defines parabolic rod taper, where the tip doesn't flex, and flex is in the mid and rod butt into the handle.  They load more of the total rod length and get maximum cast distance in a shorter rod - characteristically unforgiving for the power trade-off.  This taper is independent of the power, which range from XXH to traditional UL. 

In fly rods, these get the moniker "broomstick"

They're easy to spot by a Narrow lure weight range. 

 

The opposite is a progressive taper, where increasing weight loads a band that moves progressively down the rod length.  Progressive taper has a softer tip, faster mid, and rigid butt.   Easy to spot by an extreme-Wide lure weight range. 

Characterized by forgiving and accurate. 

This is also how you get an extra-fast UL. 

 

In general, every functioning rod taper is going to be a blend of both.  But you can describe rods as more para or more progressive. 

 

Certainly the simplest way to match a rod to your niche is by lure weight range. 

[RDB]

6 hours ago, MickD said:

Then how do you explain a blank manufacturer having a line of ultralights, all called "extra fast," and their CCS Action Angles vary from 53 to 77?

I don’t really feel like I need to explain…I didn’t come up with the standards that are used today.  The reality is the standards for rod ratings are printed on the side of every rod.  They were never meant to be exact, one size fits all…anglers have a hard enough time understanding power and action without introducing mathematical formulas.  My point is just because one XF rod is slightly different than another does not mean the manufacturer is somehow being dishonest.  The rod ratings (standards) that are generally accepted today were never meant to be exact, there is plenty of information to make informed decisions.  There is a reason CCS remains obscure.  For bass fishing, that level of precision is unnecessary to anglers and seeks to solve a problem that doesn’t exist for the vast majority.

 

It would be fun to see some of the forum questions though.  I have a rod with an AA of 59 and another with an AA of 62.  What is the best application for each? 
 

Edit:  Here is the CCS Rosetta Stone chart for comparisons.  You would have to be stoned to try to distinguish the applications for each measure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PhishLI]

@Masaccio,

 

Here's what it boils down to: Most bass rods have a wide range of applications which is widened further by line choice and drag settings. Over time you by yourself will learn to feel what any given rod's range is. You are the final arbiter, not nebulous published data, or even anyone else's opinion.

[Masaccio]

51 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

@Masaccio,

 

Here's what it boils down to: Most bass rods have a wide range of applications which is widened further by line choice and drag settings. Over time you by yourself will learn to feel what any given rod's range is. You are the final arbiter, not nebulous published data, or even anyone else's opinion.

Thanks.  I get all of that as true (and rather obvious).  But it's not really helpful, you know?  I'm here for information, to benefit from others' experience, and to enjoy discussions.  If people want to get into negative personal philosophical/political beliefs and project them on a reasonably respectable and time tested approach to making sensible choices in this great activity, then that's really NOMB.   So I'll keep asking for incisive judgements because I know there are those out there who can make good ones, and be generous with them.  So, Thank You, Bass Resource Forum Members. 

[PhishLI]

49 minutes ago, Masaccio said:

Thanks.  I get all of that as true (and rather obvious).  But it's not really helpful, you know? 

Actually it was said in the spirit of helping you understand that bass rods aren't nearly as specific as perhaps you'd like them to be. Think of them more like Vice-Grips and not a #15 Torx tipped screwdriver. The former is a tool that has quite a wide range of uses, even as a hammer in places like Tennessee, but the latter has just one. Well, maybe you can chip ice with it.

 

54 minutes ago, Masaccio said:

I'm here for information, to benefit from others' experience, and to enjoy discussions.

And there's nothing wrong with that, but personal opinions on specific uses for a specific rod can be all over the place, and justifiably so. Ask all the questions you like here. You'll get all the answers you can wish for whether you like them or not, but try not to be too sensitive in the meantime. There are plenty of hard boiled salty dogs here pretending to be civilized, but it isn't always easy to maintain appearances. After all, we terrorize unsuspecting wild animals for our jollies, so you can only expect so much. Stick around for a while and you'll learn to read the rhythms, and you'll not find yourself upset all that often once you've settled in.

[Masaccio]

18 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

Actually it was said in the spirit of helping you understand that bass rods aren't nearly as specific as perhaps you'd like them to be. Think of them more like Vice-Grips and not a #15 Torx tipped screwdriver. The former is a tool that has quite a wide range of uses, even as a hammer in places like Tennessee, but the latter has just one. Well, maybe you can chip ice with it.

 

And there's nothing wrong with that, but personal opinions on specific uses for a specific rod can be all over the place, and justifiably so. Ask all the questions you like here. You'll get all the answers you can wish for whether you like them or not, but try not to be too sensitive in the meantime. There are plenty of hard boiled salty dogs here pretending to be civilized, but it isn't always easy to maintain appearances. After all, we terrorize unsuspecting wild animals for our jollies, so you can only expect so much. Stick around for a while and you'll learn to read the rhythms, and you'll not find yourself upset all that often once you've settled in.

    Again, you keep insisting on telling me things that I already know.  I understand that this stuff is not written in stone.  When I have a complex puzzle to unravel, what I do is gather as much information as I can.  And from the perspective I receive from various sources, together with my own ideas and ability to sort through stuff (which is considerable), I go my way and learn.  So do please stop telling me how I should work through my stuff. Okay?  Do you get it?  Thank you for your concern.  The closest that I have come to being upset is responding to these posts of yours.  LETS MOVE ON.  STOP.

[Deleted account]

This is why I don't fish with guys from LI or Jersey anymore...  

Hey, how often do you guys retie with mono?...

[PhishLI]

7 minutes ago, Deleted account said:

Hey, how often do you guys retie with mono?...

Eh, 'bout once a week...

[MickD]

12 hours ago, Deleted account said:

That's an easy one, there is no objective definition of XF (or any other action), CCS assigns a unit to the measurement, the handful of action, let's call them descriptors used by the industry, don't. 

What you are saying is that in spite of subjectively describing many rods as having the same action when they don't, there is no problem with subjective descriptions.  That is simply not logical.  The fact is that CCS tells what the rod is, not what someone "feels" it is.  While there is not industry wide agreement on what the objective definition of XF is, I do know that when I buy two blanks, both with the same CCS action angles, they will have very close to the same action.  If I buy two blanks with subjective descriptions of XF, I don't know what I'm going to get.  

7 hours ago, RDB said:

t would be fun to see some of the forum questions though.  I have a rod with an AA of 59 and another with an AA of 62.  What is the best application for each? 

If you understood CCS, you wouldn't ask this question.  The difference between 59 and 62 is minor.  But the difference between 55 and 80, all being called XF, is major. 

[Deleted account]

6 minutes ago, MickD said:

What you are saying is that in spite of subjectively describing many rods as having the same action when they don't, there is no problem with subjective descriptions. 

Oh no, I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that the industry has decided they don't want an objective measurement (and I can see from a marketing perspective why that's so). I think it would be better if there was a standard, but knowing that there isn't, the workaround is easy. It does create a perceived problem for folks with little experience, or no access to product, (n/a, n/a) but they would be in the same boat with all the misinformation that abounds. 

[RDB]

2 hours ago, MickD said:

If you understood CCS, you wouldn't ask this question.  The difference between 59 and 62 is minor.  But the difference between 55 and 80, all being called XF, is major. 

I think maybe you missed my point.  I understand CCS just fine…it was rhetorical.  I’m not the one who said there is a manufacturer who has a line of XF ultralights with 24 different AA’s ratings, you did.  Your second sentence above WAS my point.  There is a reason CCS has never taken root for the masses.  It may have some value for rod builders but as a measure for off-the-shelf rod ratings for most anglers, it is overkill.

 

Edit:  Allow me to add 1 word to help clarify what I was suggesting as it wasn’t a question I was asking.

 

It would be fun to see some of the forum questions though LIKE I have a rod with an AA of 59 and another with an AA of 62.  What is the best application for each?

 

It was an example of the new flood of questions we would likely get on these boards.

 

 

[Masaccio]

On 10/24/2022 at 10:59 PM, J Francho said:

Spinnerbaits are one of the baits I introduce to my students first. I always start with moving baits. They get bit, and require zero bite detection and fish almost never come unpinned. They're a huge confidence builder for them and they're easy to learn. 

Not sure what is difficult about cast a spinnerbait. Tie a 1/2 oz bait and let it rip. There's no nuance there until you decide there is. In the meantime, chuck and wind. 

I'm definitely going to take you up on that!

[FishTank]

In case anybody is wondering.....

 

https://common-cents.info

 

[Deephaven]

I have 5 of the XF SC blanks.  Killer rods for all the applications already discussed and in general my favorite medium blank