General Bass Fishing!

[Shadowx]

I'd like to talk about bass fishing in this thread. The first thing about bass fishing I'd like to talk about is how people like to drop shot off shore.

How does one start this? I've seen videos of guys going off shore and locating bass with down imaging and drop shotting them. Whenever I try to do this I end up on crappie and perch, not bass. The tutorials I see all say that crappie will be oriented stacked on top of each other, and bass will be down close to the bottom spread out horizontally. When I locate fish like this it still ends up being crappie most of the time. Any tips?  I'm wondering if the small reservoir I'm fishing just doesn't have offshore bass. Thanks.

Hoping this thread isn't moved to an equipment sub section where far fewer people will be able to answer, as this thread is about General Bass Fishing!

[Smokinal]

Welp...first off, you can drop shot in any water depth; it's just a type of presentation. Although most commonly used "offshore" and in deeper water, it can be used shallow too.

 

Second, there are always offshore bass; as there are always shallow bass.

 

And third, I commonly catch crappie when targeting bass offshore. But remember, where there are crappie, there will be bass close by. Sometimes I'll catch 7-8 crappie to 1 bass; you just have to weed through them to get to the targeted species.

 

When drop shotting, bait selection and color can make the difference between catching and fishing. Color especially can be the game changer. So, bring a few different baits and a few different colors and try them all until you get some bites.

[WRB]

Very complex topic with lots of variables to consider.

The OP being located in upstate NY could be the Thousand Island area St. Lawrence River or small natural lakes, LMB or Smallmouth bass.

Crappie and perch are pelagic fish along with alewives, smelt, shad and several minnow species that can be found off shore attracting bass as a food source. Without pelagic bait fish bass tend to stay close to shore where their prey lives.

Trying to determine fish species from sonar signal returns takes experience along with fish behavior knowledge. 

1st and foremost sonar returns are not depicting the entire fish, only it’s swimbladder/ air or gas in the bladder is far more dense then tissue to sonar. Nearly all fish has a swimbladder and look alike to sonar. Tiny fish grouped close together can look like a cloud or ball depending how closely together they are. Carp, drum, catfish near or on the bottom look like bass near the bottom. All these fish tend to move horizontally along the bottom, except bass that tend to a foot or more off the bottom or anywhere between the bottom and surface.

Crappie and perch traveling unorganized schools like a birds, bass travel in more organized groups like ducks or geese.

Looking at sonar returns clouds of bait fish are not being attacked, balls of bait fish are tight together to confuse a predator like bass.

Vertical lure presentations like drop shot or structure spoons both work good to target fish displayed on sonar.

Remember the images displayed on the screen are history and behind you. Only the far right 1/4” side of the screen display is current data. If you are moving forward the fish displayed are behind you.

Hope this helps somewhat.

This more of a reading sonar topic the general bass fishing trying to separate bass for crappie imo.

 

Tom

[Luke Barnes]

I don't even have a boat so take this with a shaker of salt. To weed out the crappie and perch you could try upsizing the actual lure you have on the hook. Wacky rig a 6" stick bait on a drop shot and give that a whirl. That would be my solution for the knowledge that I have. Which isn't much. 

Also if this does get moved to Fishing Tackle fear not, that gets a ton of traffic as well and you will still get plenty of educated and experienced replies. 

[Shadowx]

I really don’t understand how a topic about how to fish for bass a certain way gets moved to tackle... I’m not asking about what fish finder to get. I’m not asking about what rod to get. I’m cut out my question asking for examples of pictures of bass on sonar as somehow the mods will see that as “Oh his question involves the use of fishing gear, must belong in the tackle section!”

 

Anyway, thanks for the responses. I actually know quite a bit about sonar after watching hours of video and playing with mine for 20+ hours on the water. I know the basics such as the graph shows the recent past and only the Ascope is a live visual of what’s happening. I’ve made it a goal to find bass off shore on the sonar and catch them with vertical presentation.

 

I’m able to do this consistently with crappie now, which is great because before doing this I have never caught a crappie before. Now I can catch 50+ per outing, although most are only about 9” long.

 

I do try to use a roboworm

drop shotting to get any bass that might be down there, but nothing bites. I have also tried a football jig with a baby brush hog and got no bites. I switch to a crappie jig and right away I get crappie and the occasional perch.

 

I am in the center of NY State near Saratoga.

[Shadowx]

5 hours ago, WRB said:

Very complex topic with lots of variables to consider.

The OP being located in upstate NY could be the Thousand Island area St. Lawrence River or small natural lakes, LMB or Smallmouth bass.

Crappie and perch are pelagic fish along with alewives, smelt, shad and several minnow species that can be found off shore attracting bass as a food source. Without pelagic bait fish bass tend to stay close to shore where their prey lives.

Trying to determine fish species from sonar signal returns takes experience along with fish behavior knowledge. 

1st and foremost sonar returns are not depicting the entire fish, only it’s swimbladder/ air or gas in the bladder is far more dense then tissue to sonar. Nearly all fish has a swimbladder and look alike to sonar. Tiny fish grouped close together can look like a cloud or ball depending how closely together they are. Carp, drum, catfish near or on the bottom look like bass near the bottom. All these fish tend to move horizontally along the bottom, except bass that tend to a foot or more off the bottom or anywhere between the bottom and surface.

Crappie and perch traveling unorganized schools like a birds, bass travel in more organized groups like ducks or geese.

Looking at sonar returns clouds of bait fish are not being attacked, balls of bait fish are tight together to confuse a predator like bass.

Vertical lure presentations like drop shot or structure spoons both work good to target fish displayed on sonar.

Remember the images displayed on the screen are history and behind you. Only the far right 1/4” side of the screen display is current data. If you are moving forward the fish displayed are behind you.

Hope this helps somewhat.

This more of a reading sonar topic the general bass fishing trying to separate bass for crappie imo.

 

Tom

I disagree that only the air bladders are caught by the fish finders. My jigs don’t have bladders, and are visible on the fish finder. Plastic worms, swivels, sinkers, weeds, stumps all are visible to the fish finder and do not have air bladders. Weeds and worms have densities extremely close to water, so they should not register so easily if the air bladders is what is being seen. Normal 2d sonar definitely is not just targeting the air bladders.

 

Down imaging may show the bladder more than anything else, but it obviously captures everything else besides air bladders as well. 

 

I hope you don’t read my tone as argumentative or ‘know it all’ but I believe this to be an oft repeated falsehood based on the sonar returning everything below the boat without air bladders but somehow can’t see the body of the fish? That doesn’t really add up.

 

You mentioned that crappies school kind of randomly, bass school more like geese. Could you break down exactly what you mean by that?

 

Thank you for trying to help! I hope I get your reply and this topic isn’t relocated to The Off Topic forum since we mentioned geese.

 

[LrgmouthShad]

25 minutes ago, Shadowx said:

really don’t understand how a topic about how to fish for bass a certain way gets moved to tackle... I’m not asking about what fish finder to get. I’m not asking about what rod to get. I’m cut out my question asking for examples of pictures of bass on sonar as somehow the mods will see that as “Oh his question involves the use of fishing gear, must belong in the tackle section!”

The trouble is that while you asked about general information about bass on sonar here: 

8 hours ago, Shadowx said:

still ends up being crappie most of the time. Any tips

You are still narrowing your question down to relate to the “technique” of dropshotting. You are asking about help for vertically dropshotting for bass, which inherently might involve answers including how to orient or move your bait or what even what bait to use as we saw one member suggested. You could drop the topic of dropshotting entirely, and just ask questions about bass offshore, and then that would a “general” topic. But as your post is framed right now, I think it rightfully fits in the tackle section because it discusses a technique. And by the way, the tackle section is the most active of the forums, receiving the most traffic, and we have helpful members on here. 
 

One more thing. Seems like you intend for this thread to have more than one question about general bass fishing? I recommend you just make separate threads for each of your questions. Keeps the website organized, but moderators can speak better about this than I can. 

[Shadowx]

Thanks for the explanation. 
 

i don’t think there are shad in the body of water I am fishing. I think the main forage is probably panfish and maybe golden shiners although I haven’t seen shiners personally. I have seen bait balls on sonar about 3x total but I don’t know what they are. Is there a reliable way to try to catch bait fish from a ball with a rod and reel? Sabiki rig or something?

[WRB]

You are difficult trying to help.you know all there is to know about sonar so no more help needed in that regard.

Air is more dense thus returns a stronger signal then tissue.

Aquatic green plants produce dissolved oxygen thus trap air to create a stronger sonar return during day light, but you already know that.  

Metal and rocks are obviously more dense then soft soil bottom but again you already know that by watching videos.

Can you explain the banana or arch shape signal returns being a knowledgeable sonar reader, of course you can.

Vertical  bass fishing vs crappie fishing.

Crappie suspend off the bottom and feed off the bottom, they are pelagic fish unless spawning and spend most of the time off shore.

Bass suspend off the bottom when resting or feeding on baitfish. Bass also feed on the bottom targeting bottom dwelling prey like crawdads, sucker, sculpin etc. 

Metering suspended fish without bait fish nearby and trying to catch bass requires lures that swim at a specific depth or flutter through the fish to trigger a strike. Bass rarely strike lures when they are not active.

Bass travel as a group at the same depth within a few feet. Crappie travel as a larger school at various depths simulate to a bait scattered bait ball in lieu of inline like bass tend to do.

Go online or contact your local DNR to determine what bait fish are in your lake.

We are done!

Tom

 

 

[Shadowx]

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“You are difficult trying to help.you know all there is to know about sonar so no more help needed in that regard.”

I’m sorry. I certainly do not know all there is to know. All I was trying to say was that I know how to read the basics of the sonar enough to know I’m looking at fish, but wanted help identifying which fish I was seeing. Your explaining that crappie school randomly and bass more like geese was interesting and I was hoping you’d walk me through what that might look like to me on sonar.

 

Quote

“Air is more dense thus returns a stronger signal then tissue.”

I’m not here to argue.

 

Quote

“Aquatic green plants produce dissolved oxygen thus trap air to create a stronger sonar return during day light, but you already know that. “

As I said, I never implied I was all knowing in sonar. Surely there can be a level of understanding between not knowing about the a-scope feature, and expertise on the effects of photosynthesis on hydroacoustics???

 

Quote

“Can you explain the banana or arch shape signal returns being a knowledgeable sonar reader, of course you can.”

My understanding of why the return shows as an arch is that the transducer beam is like a flashlight with the beam most intense in the center of the cone and gradually weakens towards the edge. As the beam passes over a fish, the weak edge of the beam begins to show a weak return. As the more intense center of the cone passes over the fish it produces a stronger return until it reaches the other edge and it again produces a weaker return. This would give the image of the return as a thin oblong oval with tapered edges on a horizontal orientation.  
The edge of the transducer cone would catch weaker returns off the fish at an angle (not straight up and down). At this point the transducer would be further away from the fish when it’s at either edge of the beam than when directly above it. This would be shown as the return starting lower when the transducers edge first ‘shines’ on it, highest when the transducer is most directly above the fish, and then lower again when the transducer beam’s trailing edge is all that is ‘shining’ on it.
Assuming the fish did not change depth as the transducer passes over, this would change our oblong oval with tapered edges to an arch with the tapered edges lower and the top of the arch higher and thicker in the middle.