Battery Q's & Suggestions

[Tennessee Boy]

I looked at a lot of brands before I went with Battleborn last spring for a battery to run my electronics on.  
 

Of the two you listed I would go with Ionic.  I’m not impressed with what I’ve learned about Dakota.  The battery you link to has 19% 1 star reviews.  You might also want to watch this review from someone who has used both.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o7f7Z6Z8GE

[Bankc]

1 hour ago, AJ Hauser said:

Not to dredge up a quiet topic - but what do you all think about the Dakota (very expansive) batteries compared to the Ionic (more reasonable) batteries?

 

100ah Dakota on Amazon

 

Ionic 125ah on Lithium Hub

 

Seriously considering upgrading and doing the payment plan to get it paid in full before next spring... either way it's about the same coin, based on these listings. Would love to hear any first hand experience - thanks! 

The good thing about Dakota, is they're U.S. based.  So they're more likely to stand by their product and probably easier to get a hold of if something goes wrong.  

However, keep in mind that there are only a handful of companies that actually make the cells, and they're all made in China from companies you've probably never heard of.  So the brand on the outside of the plastic box is probably not who actually made the meat and potatoes of the thing.  

I'd check out Will Prowse's YouTube channel.  He really knows what he's talking about.  He buys a lot of lithium batteries for solar systems and tears them down and goes over what makes one good or bad or whatever.  And while his focus is solar power storage systems, they have virtually the same requirements as trolling motors (high drain, exposed to temperature extremes, etc.).  Here's a link to the Battle Born battery he broke down:

https://youtu.be/G5E30u-66VI

 

Personally, I went with a Weize brand 50Ah.  They're a lot cheaper and still pretty well made.  Well made enough that I could buy a second and still come out ahead if this one fails on me.  But it's been nothing but reliable so far.  I'm not entirely convinced that a lithium battery that costs twice as much will last twice as long or be twice as good.  But that's just me.  

 

[AJ Hauser]

14 minutes ago, GaryH said:

... [the app] is great for keeping check of them on your phone.

 

Does Dakota have an app for checking level by chance? 

 

I'd just be using it for all day trolling, not a starting battery even. 

 

Thanks!

4 minutes ago, Bankc said:

Personally, I went with a Weize brand 50Ah.  They're a lot cheaper and still pretty well made.  Well made enough that I could buy a second and still come out ahead if this one fails on me.  But it's been nothing but reliable so far.  I'm not entirely convinced that a lithium battery that costs twice as much will last twice as long or be twice as good.  But that's just me.  

 

 

Good Lord a 200ah Weize is listed at $650... I'm skeptical but intrigued... 

[MN Fisher]

13 minutes ago, AJ Hauser said:

 

Does Dakota have an app for checking level by chance? 

 

I'd just be using it for all day trolling, not a starting battery even. 

 

Thanks!

 

Good Lord a 200ah Weize is listed at $650... I'm skeptical but intrigued... 

Mighty Max 200ah lithium is also $650. I've got a pair of Mighty Max AGMs (100ah, 35ah) and they've been very solid for me. MM is based out of New Jersey, so another US based distributor.

[AJ Hauser]

1 minute ago, MN Fisher said:

Mighty Max 200ah lithium is also $650. I've got a pair of Mighty Max AGMs (100ah, 35ah) and they've been very solid for me. MM is based out of New Jersey, so another US based distributor.

 

Nice! How do you check your power level on the water - or do you? 

 

Also, do they come with a charger, or do you need to purchase a special charger for this kind of battery? 

Edited October 18, 2022 by AJ Hauser
Forgot to ask about charger.

[MN Fisher]

3 minutes ago, AJ Hauser said:

Nice! How do you check your power level on the water - or do you? 

With the AGMs, I don't worry it too much....I've yet to run low on a trip. The 100ah is strictly for the TM and the 35ah runs everything else except starting.

 

3 minutes ago, AJ Hauser said:

Also, do they come with a charger, or do you need to purchase a special charger for this kind of battery? 

No, you have to get the charger separate. I have a NOCO Genius 5x2 (5 amps per channel, 2 channels) that'll handle wet cell, gel, AGM and Lithium...so when I upgrade batteries I don't have to change the charger.

[wdp]

On 10/2/2022 at 10:24 AM, casts_by_fly said:

i don’t know if it’s in your budget, but lithium battery prices are coming down and are almost inline with quality AGM batteries. An 80 Ah should be plenty for you and should come in around $400-$450.

 

Where are you sourcing the lithium batteries? I’m in same situation as the original poster, I’m in 12 ft jon boat with 30 lb minn kota & my 24DC battery only lasts about 3 hrs before it starts losing power. Been trying to find a better battery locally with zero luck. I’m getting too old to lug around a bigger group 27-31 size battery. My back can’t handle it.

[MN Fisher]

Mighty Max - direct from their site or from Amazon

100ah LiFePo4 for $420 - weighs just under 30lbs.

https://www.mightymaxbattery.com/shop/lifepo4/12v-100ah-lithium-replacement-battery-for-home-boat-yacht/

[casts_by_fly]

7 hours ago, wdp said:

Where are you sourcing the lithium batteries? I’m in same situation as the original poster, I’m in 12 ft jon boat with 30 lb minn kota & my 24DC battery only lasts about 3 hrs before it starts losing power. Been trying to find a better battery locally with zero luck. I’m getting too old to lug around a bigger group 27-31 size battery. My back can’t handle it.

 

rebel have a good reputation.  Here is a 100 Ah for $479

https://rebelbatteries.com/products/smart-lifepo4-12v-100ah-1280wh-bluetooth-enabled-rechargeable-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery

[wdp]

14 hours ago, casts_by_fly said:

 

rebel have a good reputation.  Here is a 100 Ah for $479

https://rebelbatteries.com/products/smart-lifepo4-12v-100ah-1280wh-bluetooth-enabled-rechargeable-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery

Thanks for info. Think I’m about to take the plunge into the Li battery realm. Couple more questions for you guys with experience. 
 

1. What kind of charger are y’all using? I’m not looking for any kind of on-board charger. 
 

2. Is the 100 AH necessary for 6-8 hrs (or even 10 hrs) of fishing. Seems like I could get by with a 50 AH even on a windy day. My humble vessel is a 12 ft jon boat with a 30 lb minn kota.

 

3. Do these off brand companies have good reliability? I see that Dakota & Battle Born offer 11 and 10 yr warranties, respectively. These other companies only seem to offer a 1-2 yr warranty. $300-$400 is a lotta cheddar to spend on a battery that dies off after a yr or 2. 

[casts_by_fly]

13 minutes ago, wdp said:

Thanks for info. Think I’m about to take the plunge into the Li battery realm. Couple more questions for you guys with experience. 
 

1. What kind of charger are y’all using? I’m not looking for any kind of on-board charger. 
 

2. Is the 100 AH necessary for 6-8 hrs (or even 10 hrs) of fishing. Seems like I could get by with a 50 AH even on a windy day. My humble vessel is a 12 ft jon boat with a 30 lb minn kota.

 

3. Do these off brand companies have good reliability? I see that Dakota & Battle Born offer 11 and 10 yr warranties, respectively. These other companies only seem to offer a 1-2 yr warranty. $300-$400 is a lotta cheddar to spend on a battery that dies off after a yr or 2. 

 

1- Noco genius.  I run the 5 because I also charge a 30AH battery.  If you're only using it for a 100AH or similar then get the 10.

 

2- Depends on how much you're using it.  My kayak has a 43 lb trolling motor with 80 AH lithium and you can drain it completely in 2 hours if those 2 hours are on top speed constantly.  Check your motor's amperage draw specs and consider your own usage.  If you're using the boat to move from spot to spot and then slowly moving around that spot, then add up the time running between spots and multiply by the amp draw on full speed.  Generally if you're launching the boat and starting to fish on 50% thrust or less, then you'll have no problem with a smaller battery.  If you're fishing lakes where you run from spot to spot at full speed (spot hopping) then you'll want more.  Given the price differential, I'd say just get the bigger battery to start and never worry about it.

 

3- That's the million dollar question.  Outside of youtube reviewers, there is basically no one that runs multiple brands of the same battery AND has done so for 5+ years where a warranty would be a question.  Off grid and solar people will have more experience.  The guy on youtube mentioned above also does full tear downs of batteries.  Typically the cells inside are all about the same.  The differences are in the quality of wiring and the BMS.  Some of the cheaper ones are definitely cheaper inside.  I have Amped because they've had a good reputation for a 'long' time.  Dakota and BB are also well known and you pay for it.  I look at it this way.  If Rebel is giving a 5-year warranty on a 100AH battery for $500 (for round numbers).  That's $100 a year if it dies at the end.  If you're going to use lead acid batteries you're not going to be much cheaper.

[wdp]

32 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

 

1- Noco genius.  I run the 5 because I also charge a 30AH battery.  If you're only using it for a 100AH or similar then get the 10.

 

2- Depends on how much you're using it.  My kayak has a 43 lb trolling motor with 80 AH lithium and you can drain it completely in 2 hours if those 2 hours are on top speed constantly.  Check your motor's amperage draw specs and consider your own usage.  If you're using the boat to move from spot to spot and then slowly moving around that spot, then add up the time running between spots and multiply by the amp draw on full speed.  Generally if you're launching the boat and starting to fish on 50% thrust or less, then you'll have no problem with a smaller battery.  If you're fishing lakes where you run from spot to spot at full speed (spot hopping) then you'll want more.  Given the price differential, I'd say just get the bigger battery to start and never worry about it.

 

3- That's the million dollar question.  Outside of youtube reviewers, there is basically no one that runs multiple brands of the same battery AND has done so for 5+ years where a warranty would be a question.  Off grid and solar people will have more experience.  The guy on youtube mentioned above also does full tear downs of batteries.  Typically the cells inside are all about the same.  The differences are in the quality of wiring and the BMS.  Some of the cheaper ones are definitely cheaper inside.  I have Amped because they've had a good reputation for a 'long' time.  Dakota and BB are also well known and you pay for it.  I look at it this way.  If Rebel is giving a 5-year warranty on a 100AH battery for $500 (for round numbers).  That's $100 a year if it dies at the end.  If you're going to use lead acid batteries you're not going to be much cheaper.

Appreciate the info. Yep, I had kinda already decided to go ahead & get the 100 AH considering not too much more expensive or added weight. 
 

Rebel def seems to be better in terms of reviews for all the “off-brand” Li batteries. Mighty Max looks pretty good too but they weigh more than the Rebel. Will def do some more research & hope to buy soon. Thanks for your help. 

[MN Fisher]

42 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

1- Noco genius.  I run the 5 because I also charge a 30AH battery.  If you're only using it for a 100AH or similar then get the 10.

Yep - I'm running the 5x2 for my 100ah TM battery and the 35ah House battery.

[Tennessee Boy]

4 hours ago, wdp said:

1. What kind of charger are y’all using? I’m not looking for any kind of on-board charger. 

I'm using a Victron Energy Blue Smart 15 amp.   It has a Lithium setting and has a blue tooth interface that connects to my phone and tells me how many amp hours it took to charge the battery.   It's best to charge LifePo4 batteries at 14.4 V and float at 13.6 V.   Other than that there's no magic that one charger will offer over another.

 

4 hours ago, wdp said:

2. Is the 100 AH necessary for 6-8 hrs (or even 10 hrs) of fishing. Seems like I could get by with a 50 AH even on a windy day. My humble vessel is a 12 ft jon boat with a 30 lb minn kota.

If you are using an outboard to get you to the spot and then you the trolling motor to fish then 100 ah is probably more than you need.  If you are using the trolling motor to get you to the spot then you need a big battery unless you are fishing a very small lake.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, wdp said:

3. Do these off brand companies have good reliability? I see that Dakota & Battle Born offer 11 and 10 yr warranties, respectively. These other companies only seem to offer a 1-2 yr warranty. $300-$400 is a lotta cheddar to spend on a battery that dies off after a yr or 2. 

Only time will tell.  A warranty is only as good as the company behind it.   There are countless companies buying the same batteries from China and putting a brand on it.   I'd be willing to bet that most of them will be gone in 5 years.  I came very close to buying a Chins battery which is a cheap Chinese battery sold on Amazon that has got some good reviews.  In the end I went with Battleborn because it's real US company that designs and assembles the batteries in the US using mostly parts made in China. They also use cylindrical cells which has many advantages of the prismatic cells used in all the cheaper batteries.  Only time will tell if I will get my money's worth by going with Battleborn.  I feel good about supporting a real US company.

 

My guess is that most well made LifePo4 batteries will last longer than their owners need them to.  From what I've read,  in the lab LifePo4 cells loose half their capacity after about 6000 cycles.  Battleborn says to expect 3000 cycles before you loose 20% of your capacity.   I fish about twice a week.  That means I'll hit the 3000 cycle mark in about 28 years at age 88.  

[AJ Hauser]

 

 

On 10/19/2022 at 3:06 PM, Tennessee Boy said:

That means I'll hit the 3000 cycle mark in about 28 years at age 88.  

 

 

It's good to have goals. You just set one. Godspeed. 

 

Great points all around. Thanks fellas! 

[TnRiver46]

I don’t know why I read all this, I quit charging my batteries and have been using a wooden paddle to scull along 

[MN Fisher]

1 hour ago, TnRiver46 said:

I don’t know why I read all this, I quit charging my batteries and have been using a wooden paddle to scull along 

Training for a new job in Venice?

[TnRiver46]

1 minute ago, MN Fisher said:

Training for a new job in Venice?

Gotta work on my singing voice…… “oh soooooo laaaaa mmmmeeee oooooo”

[GaryH]

3 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

Gotta work on my singing voice…… “oh soooooo laaaaa mmmmeeee oooooo”

Keep your day job…?

Better yet get a flute. You could be the pied piper of Tennessee varmint removal 

[wdp]

So far, Rebel batteries’ customer service is not giving me the warmest & fuzziest feelings. I’ve tried calling 4-5 times & always get voice mail. Very slow responding to my email & didn’t answer all my questions. So I emailed back on Friday asking some of the questions again, 5 days later still no reply. 
 

Beginning to look like I’ll be going with a different brand when I decide to buy. If I need warranty replacement during fishing season, I can’t be waiting weeks or more to get a replacement battery. 

[AJ Hauser]

Appreciate the feedback @wdp - what other companies are you looking at? I was leaning towards that Mighty Max brand myself, but still doing homework. They have a 200 ah for $650... I mean... overkill? Maybe. But I'm really tired of paddling back to the launch...

[wdp]

27 minutes ago, AJ Hauser said:

Appreciate the feedback @wdp - what other companies are you looking at? I was leaning towards that Mighty Max brand myself, but still doing homework. They have a 200 ah for $650... I mean... overkill? Maybe. But I'm really tired of paddling back to the launch...

Still looking at a few. I might start looking at Mighty Max as well, but their 100 AH battery is a few lbs heavier than the model from Rebel which is why I was leaning towards Rebel. I hate to say it because their so much more expensive, but I’m prob gonna reach out to Battleborn. They have a 10 yr warranty (twice that of most other companies) & if the customer service is great & quick to respond, it may be worth it. Over the span of 10 yrs, the cost upfront would be worth it I guess. It’s just hard to find good customer service these days. 
 

Luckily, fishing season is winding down. I’ve got all winter to research & mull it over. So plenty of time before I pull the trigger. 

[wdp]

@casts_by_fly and @MN Fisher think I’m about to take the LiFePO4 battery plunge but still trying to decide on a charger. I’m looking at this Noco Genius 5. But is there any advantage to getting the 10 amp charger instead? Does it charge the Li battery significantly faster? The 5 amp is about half the cost of the 10. Also, it looks like on the Noco charger you just set the mode to 12V Li & let it charge overnight, is that correct? If the 5 amp takes all night to charge, no biggie for me. 

https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GENIUS5-Fully-Automatic-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B07W8KJH44/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=1HU02J468KCJR&keywords=noco+genius+5&qid=1674537268&sprefix=noco+genius%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-3

@AJ Hauser I’m still undecided on which brand to get. I’m not sure a lot of these brands are nothing more than a small store front/office space on the stateside that is really just a Chinese company. I put in the New Jersey address for Mighty Max in Google maps & looks like it’s a small space in a bunch of warehouse/strip mall type businesses. And no phone number to call. I don’t think many are actually based in the US other than Battleborn & Dakota. And I’m not ready to pay Battleborn prices. ? With all that being said, I’m leaning towards something like this LiTime (I think it was formerly branded AmpereTime). It’s only $300 & weighs only 25.2 lbs. I figure if I get 3-4 yrs out of it, I’ll be doing good. If it craps out after 2 yrs, then I won’t be losing as much as if I bought a $420 - $500 battery. We’ll see how it goes. 
 

https://www.amazon.com/LiFePO4-Battery-Perfect-Applications-Warranty/dp/B084DB36KW/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_sspa?crid=28SETMTKEUA0V&keywords=lipo4+battery+12v+100ah+deep+cycle&qid=1674534283&sprefix=lipo4+deep++battery+12v+100ah%2Caps%2C95&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExWFpCUVFWVVY1OFY2JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMjY3NTU2MlpPTDJLR1dJNFVQSSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMTc2NTUyMUNBWUxJNE5FNFE0MiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX3Bob25lX3NlYXJjaF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

[MN Fisher]

5 hours ago, wdp said:

@MN Fisher think I’m about to take the LiFePO4 battery plunge but still trying to decide on a charger. I’m looking at this Noco Genius 5. But is there any advantage to getting the 10 amp charger instead? Does it charge the Li battery significantly faster? The 5 amp is about half the cost of the 10. Also, it looks like on the Noco charger you just set the mode to 12V Li & let it charge overnight, is that correct? If the 5 amp takes all night to charge, no biggie for me. 

The Genius 10 charger will bring the battery up faster so depending on the battery max capacity and how far down you've discharged it, it might be more advantageous to use it over the Genius 5.

 

5 hours ago, wdp said:

I don’t think many are actually based in the US other than Battleborn & Dakota. And I’m not ready to pay Battleborn prices.

Even some based in the US just assemble them here - the main parts come from China as they're the main producer of LiFePo4 cells and BMS boards.

 

I've been very happy with my Mighty Max AGMs and when I have the money to upgrade to LiFePo4 I'll probably go with them again.

 

Will Prowse on YouTube breaks down batteries...literally. He'll tear apart batteries to check components, run tests and let you know if a battery is worth getting. His main focus is on solar systems for homes, but his battery tests are worth it for any usage.

https://www.youtube.com/@WillProwse/videos

[wdp]

3 hours ago, MN Fisher said:

 

Will Prowse on YouTube breaks down batteries...literally. He'll tear apart batteries to check components, run tests and let you know if a battery is worth getting. His main focus is on solar systems for homes, but his battery tests are worth it for any usage.

https://www.youtube.com/@WillProwse/videos

I’ll try to check out some of his videos. Thanks for the info.