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7' vs 7'3 vs 7'6


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Posted
59 minutes ago, Deleted account said:

No.

No what?

 

2 hours ago, Catt said:

 

Medium Heavy X-Fast is all I've used for worms/jigs since 2005.

 

My perfered length is 6' 10" but currently my worm rod is 7' & my jig rod is 7' 1".

What to you makes a good XF - some people like a rod firm through the tip in XF and others a moderate tip but extra fast shut off.

 

What brands do you like for an XF? @T-Billy  you too

 

What line are you using?

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Posted
1 hour ago, PUTitinYOURmouthFISH said:

What to you makes a good XF - some people like a rod firm through the tip in XF and others a moderate tip but extra fast shut off.

 

By definition, an extra fast has a very light tip that flexes easily in the first 10-20% of the rod but then shuts off and the rest of the rod has far less flex while casting.  Flex under load with a fish depends on the rods overall power.  What you describe first (firm through the tip) is usually a fast or moderate fast which has a lot of power in the tip.

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Posted
1 hour ago, PUTitinYOURmouthFISH said:

No what?

 

What to you makes a good XF - some people like a rod firm through the tip in XF and others a moderate tip but extra fast shut off.

 

What brands do you like for an XF? @T-Billy  you too

 

What line are you using?

Ark Tharp series "Hammer". One heck of a value at $129, and they're on sale at SO for 25% off if they have that model in stock. 40 ton Japanese Toray graphite and Fuji K series guides. 

 

Edit to add: Just checked, SO is out of stock on that model in both the Tharp and Invoker series.

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Posted

Can’t mix spinning and casting rods regarding length.

Spinning reels do noe have rotating spools therefore tip speed and lure acceleration doesn’t have any negative affect to line coming off the spool. Longer rods can cast further then shorter spinning rods.

Casting rods the tip speed directly affects the lure speed and reel!spool start up speed. Longer casting rods the tip speed is controlled more by the rods action, slower moderate action starts the spool slower as the rod loads up to launch the lure. High tip speeds can over run (backlash) the reel spool. Therefor there are limits to fast action casting rod length regarding casting distance. The issue becomes bottom contact lure feedback vs fast rod action, fast shorter rods transfer line movements better then longer rods...tradeoffs distance vs lure feedback.

My 8’ swimbait rods are moderate action for maximum casting distance. My J & worm rods are 6’10” for a combination of casting distance and lure contact.

Tom

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Posted

Length and taper have no influence on sensitivity, even less so when comparing rods that are inches apart. Sensitivity is more influenced by materials and construction. 

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Posted

built right, I like to think a rod manufacturer can get the action any of us want from any length of rod.

 

I think the longer length comes into play for bait placement, hooksets, and maybe the fish-fight.  for me.

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Posted

lets take a Dobyns rod.  any rod.  say a Fury 733.  you think they just cut 3" off the butt-end and call it a 703?

 

I ask cuz I dont really know.

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Posted

I like 7'-7'4" rods for most general fishing duties. For me that's a good length to get good distance while maintaining accuracy and also getting good hooksets on long casts. 

 

I go shorter for topwater and jerkbait fishing, 6'6"-6'10". I like longer rods for techniques where long casts are critical, like deep cranks and c-rigs and also for pitching and punching, I will go 7'6"-8' for those rods. 

 

I don't factor length in at all when considering sensitivity or action as I don't think it matters.

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Posted

It's 100% personal preference 

 

I didn't select Medium Heavy X-Fast for its casting abilities. I selected it for it's hook setting abilities.

 

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Posted
4 hours ago, PUTitinYOURmouthFISH said:

No what?

 

No this. "they're smart, especially when they're big, and know how to break you off or spit a hook."

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Posted
1 hour ago, Darth-Baiter said:

lets take a Dobyns rod.  any rod.  say a Fury 733.  you think they just cut 3" off the butt-end and call it a 703?

 

I ask cuz I dont really know.

 

Not if they want them to fish similarly or have the same action.  Shortening an existing blank will always slow the action, doesn't matter if you shorten from the tip or butt.  Extending a rod from the butt will always speed up the action.  In both cases, how much affect depends on how much added or cut.  The principles are well proven by custom rod builders and we don't have to go into the why on this thread.

 

That said, I'm sure there are some instances where manufacturers (especially on cost conscious lineups) have done that to add more offerings in the lineup, albeit with different actions or feels.  Within a given lineup, manufacturers will generally use the same graphite material and processing, so the variance comes with the metal mandrel (inside taper) and the cut shape of the graphite cloth (outside taper).  if your goal is minimizing cost, then reusing mandrels for different rods and either wrapping a different amount of graphite or 'cutting short' the pattern is one way to do it.  It might not make the optimal rod, but it makes for less cost in the process.

Posted
1 hour ago, Catt said:

It's 100% personal preference 

 

I didn't select Medium Heavy X-Fast for its casting abilities. I selected it for it's hook setting abilities.

 

I totally get that. Horses for courses and the lakes you and I fish are as different as night and day. You can't be half-steppin and BSing your hooksets in your neck of the woods and with the hooks needed to survive that battle. I've had my feelings hurt there more than once.

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Posted
31 minutes ago, Deleted account said:

 

No this. "they're smart, especially when they're big, and know how to break you off or spit a hook."

Nah man, there's been way too many studies that show learned behavior in bass to think the big ones arent smarter than the little ones. They have learned what to do in those situations to help free themselves to some degree.

 

@WRB What do you mean by this "Spinning reels do noe have rotating spools therefore tip speed and lure acceleration doesn’t have any affect to line coming off the spool. Longer rods can cast further then shorter spinning rods. " A longer rod will impart greater acceleration to the lure, launching it farther easier - Why is it that you say longer spinning rods cast further if you don't think it's the lure acceleration?

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Posted
57 minutes ago, PUTitinYOURmouthFISH said:

Nah man, there's been way too many studies that show learned behavior in bass to think the big ones arent smarter than the little ones. They have learned what to do in those situations to help free themselves to some degree.

LOL

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Posted
15 hours ago, PUTitinYOURmouthFISH said:

Nah man, there's been way too many studies that show learned behavior in bass to think the big ones arent smarter than the little ones. They have learned what to do in those situations to help free themselves to some degree.

 

@WRB What do you mean by this "Spinning reels do noe have rotating spools therefore tip speed and lure acceleration doesn’t have any affect to line coming off the spool. Longer rods can cast further then shorter spinning rods. " A longer rod will impart greater acceleration to the lure, launching it farther easier - Why is it that you say longer spinning rods cast further if you don't think it's the lure acceleration?

The rod tip speed accelerates the lure. Technically longer rod = faster tip speed only if the rod action / bending during the cast release point is equal. 7’6” rod moderate action is bent nearly 90 degrees at the rod mid point, the rod tip isn’t at 7”6” line at the release point. A fast action 7’ rod doesn’t bend more the 45 degrees at release point, actually longer distance with higher tip speed. If the rod action / rod stiffness / bending is equal the longer rod would have higher tip speed. The problem becomes timing the release point t maximize casting distance with a fast action rod and not over run the casting reel spool. This is why state of the art spool braking technology to control (slow down) the reel spool and that reduces casting distance.

casting 1/2 oz bottom contact lures over 50 yards isn’t easy.

Tom

 

 

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Posted
8 hours ago, ChrisD46 said:

Hard Jerk Bait rod ? ... 6'6" ~ 6'10" range best for working the bait , so longer may not be better

With tip down jerking, that's about the right length for me, too.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, MickD said:

"Hard Jerk Bait rod ? ... 6'6" ~ 6'10" range best for working the bait , so longer may not be better"

 

With tip down jerking, that's about the right length for me, too.

I was planning on using it for bottom contact, but I really feel like I need to search the forum for who uses xf or mf for hard jerk baits - seems worth exploring.

 

But I did just find a 13 fishing Envy Black 6'10 MH XF for like 80 bucks - had to grab it for that price even though my 7ft 4.5 pwr Xf Kistler Helium is on the way. I'll compare and see if maybe I'll swap out the Helium. 

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Posted
6 hours ago, J Francho said:

Length and taper have no influence on sensitivity, even less so when comparing rods that are inches apart. Sensitivity is more influenced by materials and construction. 

It depends on how one defines "sensitivity."  One expert argues that since the longer rod has a mechanical "disadvantage" relative to a shorter one of similar power and action, it will make bites easier to detect. For many years experts have argued that the higher the stiffness to weight ratio, the higher the sensitivity.  And material and construction obviously can affect stiffness to weight ratio.  The higher the stiffness to weight ratio, the higher the True Natural Frequency of the blank/rod.  And now it is possible to easily, cheaply, and accurately measure TNF.  And sure enough, the higher the price, generally, the higher the TNF.  We are probably getting more sensitive rods by paying more.  And, there is one brand that consistently has higher TNF's in my testing than the other brands I've tested. 

 

But  we can discuss and debate "sensitivity"  until the proverbial hell freezes over and still reach no consensus.  One thing I know for sure is that there is no "sensitivometer." 

 

It is my opinion that if one is using FC or mono, and desires higher sensitivity (ability to feel the bite and lure action) the biggest gain will come by switching to braid, much higher improvement than seeking a higher sensitivity rod. 

Posted
5 minutes ago, MickD said:

It depends on how one defines "sensitivity."  One expert argues that since the longer rod has a mechanical "disadvantage" relative to a shorter one of similar power and action, it will make bites easier to detect. For many years experts have argued that the higher the stiffness to weight ratio, the higher the sensitivity.  And material and construction obviously can affect stiffness to weight ratio.  The higher the stiffness to weight ratio, the higher the True Natural Frequency of the blank/rod.  And now it is possible to easily, cheaply, and accurately measure TNF.  And sure enough, the higher the price, generally, the higher the TNF.  We are probably getting more sensitive rods by paying more.  And, there is one brand that consistently has higher TNF's in my testing than the other brands I've tested. 

 

But  we can discuss and debate "sensitivity"  until the proverbial hell freezes over and still reach no consensus.  One thing I know for sure is that there is no "sensitivometer." 

What brand consistently tests higher TNF?

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Posted

I keep all my rods in the 6'6 - 6'10 range.

I'm much more accurate with shorter rods and have not been handicapped....... just call it personal preference ?

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Posted
15 minutes ago, PUTitinYOURmouthFISH said:

What brand consistently tests higher TNF?

Send me a message and I'll send you instructions on how to do it and you can come to your own conclusions.  I don't want to hear from lawyers of all the other brands.  

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Posted
On 9/27/2022 at 3:03 PM, dodgeguy said:

theroretically the extra fast tip should be slightly more sensitive.

Only within the same brand, and not even then. I have seen extra fast tips with a short and soft tip and a fast tips with a longer bit stiff tip in the same line of rods. Then some extra fasts have a slightly less short tip but a stout one.

 

For bottom contact, I like either a MH or MH+ power and either an extra fast tip or 80/20 rod with a soft tip, or with a fast tip, a 70/30 rod but with a stiff, powerful tip. I probably prefer the latter, but it's close. Length doesn't really make much of a difference other than casting it comfortably, maybe skipping.

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Posted

Someone explain to me what taper has to do with sensitivity.  I don't see the correlation, or you all simply tip watching and calling that sensitivity?  My moderate graphite rods are no less sensitive than similar grade x-fast.

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Posted
13 minutes ago, J Francho said:

Someone explain to me what taper has to do with sensitivity.  I don't see the correlation, or you all simply tip watching and calling that sensitivity?  My moderate graphite rods are no less sensitive than similar grade x-fast.

I'm no expert, maybe a rod builder can chime in, but my understanding is that a faster tip will more readily transfer energy down the blank vs absorbing it - where it shuts off determines the length of rod that transfers energy instead of evenly distributing it with bend.

 

The rod is essentially a lever system and our hand is the fulcrum - the more bend the less energy gets passed to the end of the rod causing the lower end of the rod to feel less "lift" from the lure/fish/whatever is causing the opposing force.

 

Example: you want to lift something up with a rigid bar so you set the fulcrum and put force on one end to lift the other. If you use a bar that is softer and has bend to it you will need more force to lift the other end the same distance as before. The more rigid the bar the faster and more efficient the energy transfer is and that is an extra fast rod, we feel that lift easier.

 

In theory of course, because you're definitely right about components being a major factor - but again that still boils down to energy transfer. That along with rod length both affect mechanical impedence which does make shorter faster rods more sensitive on paper. Although something could be said about longer rods as it pertains to deflection on the far end of the lever making bites easier to detect, but that would be less through vibration and more tip watching as you mentioned @J Francho

 

 

 

 

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Posted

Yeah I'm not sure about that. Bite detection relies on the line transmitting vibrations to the rod and then up the rod to your hand. The rod isn't generally bent while any of this is happening. Although I'm not even sure if the rod were bent while the bite was happening it would change the vibrations moving through the blank. It would probably make the bite more easily felt because the line would be tight and there would be more line contact with the guides.

 

If anything line plays a much more important role in bite detection and is why fluoro transmits bites so much better than braid on a slack line.

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