Spinnerbait Blade Thickness/Cupping

[LrgmouthShad]

14 minutes ago, Jigfishn10 said:

From my observations, the blade arm will be parallel with the surface because of the drag the blades present. The head arm - wire from lead head to line tie - of the bait is bent up to get the body to ride more horizontal. 

So another factor too then must be the angle that the r-bend is bent at and the angle of the wire coming off of the head. So I wonder what my my little bend that I put on my mine - the one photo’d does to how my SB runs. Body is slightly more back and up. Hmmm. I gotta think about this. I think I’ll draw some force diagrams. Back to physics class

[ChrisD46]

4 hours ago, Jigfishn10 said:

My apologies, I should have explained better.

Thinner blades are easier to start up and keep spinning at a slower retrieve. It doesn't mean you can't fish them fast, b/c you can. Picture yourself in a cold water situation? If you want to slow roll in clear water, what would you like in a spinnerbait? For me, I would start out with an easier starting blade, fished as slow as possible making the least noise, yet putting out vibration IF it were a bright day, sun overhead. If slow doesn't work, then speed up. The thin blade allows you to do that. Heavier blades are harder to start up and would need to be retrieved faster to keep moving. Please bear in mind, I'm talking about "like" blades with the exception of the metal thickness.

 

Now, that is a very small part of the rabbit hole to go down in. You know as well as I that a more stream lined blade like a willow will fish faster than a Colorado & Indiana. So all things being equal, a #4 willow will fish faster than a #4 Colorado. What if you took a #5 willow? More mass, slower retrieve and you get the same attributes as a #4 Colorado.

 

If I were to spinnerbait fish as much as I used to, I would concentrate on using a willow blade and worry about cup or crease and how deep cup or crease is. I would also use just smooth blades and use nickel, gold (although brass was my number one) and white. Hammered blades do have a place, I guess.  

*Do not forget a good quality ball bearing as part of the spinnerbait blade recipe for easy , fast blade start up !

[Deleted account]

1 hour ago, LrgmouthShad said:

@Deleted account come on I need ya help here. 

 

Yeah, and after, I'd get canonized...  

[fin]

1 hour ago, LrgmouthShad said:

Spinnerbaits run at a certain angle from horizontal. The bait itself. Not talking about rising/falling.

 

You mean like how this spinnerbait has an extra bend to address that issue?

 

 

[LrgmouthShad]

16 minutes ago, ChrisD46 said:

*Do not forget a good quality ball bearing as part of the spinnerbait blade recipe for easy , fast blade start up !

Sampos are equipped on mine. Only the best. I pay for spinnerbaits. I understand that there is a little debate going on about whether quality swivels are necessary on a SB. I am in the “quality matters” category.

4 minutes ago, fin said:

 

You mean like how this spinnerbait has an extra bend to address that issue?

 

 

If that bend does that, then I did the same thing to mine. Take a look at my pic. That spinnerbait is not special, sorry. You can bend any spinnerbait; you can change anything on a spinnerbait. I could go on a rant but I won’t. 
 

Deep breaths, deep breaths

 

Sincere thank you for sharing because I was just about to look into the issue of how the wire is bent affects a spinnerbait running. 

[LrgmouthShad]

23 minutes ago, Deleted account said:

 

Yeah, and after, I'd get canonized...  

I wanted so badly to make a joke but I just can’t do it. 

Please! I think some of your opinions would go against the grain here but for the sake of discussion I think your thoughts could really help here.

 

EDIT: On the discussion of that wire bend, instinct is telling me that it might only benefit an SB if it has a longer wire length from

head to bend

[fin]

11 minutes ago, LrgmouthShad said:

If that bend does that, then I did the same thing to mine. Take a look at my pic. That spinnerbait is not special, sorry. You can bend any spinnerbait; you can change anything on a spinnerbait. I could go on a rant but I won’t. 
 

Deep breaths, deep breaths

 

I'm not sure what I did to get you hyperventilating ? I was trying to help you illustrate your point. A picture is worth a thousand words.

 

I'm not trying to say that spinnerbait is "special", but I was just looking at the Tackle Warehouse page on double bladed spinnerbaits, and I think it's the only one there that has that extra bend. I've never used one like that, but I have considered bending the wire on certain spinnerbaits to overcome the bait running at an angle.

[LrgmouthShad]

4 minutes ago, fin said:

I'm not sure what I did to get you hyperventilating ? I was trying to help you illustrate your point. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Thanks. I dunno what set me off either, sorry. I think @Captain Phil’s choice spinnerbait, the Okochobee special has that bend. Trophy Bass Co’s Ozark Flash also has it. But anything can have it. I’m thinking that doing it to a SB that has a short distance from head to bend does not make sense. The “lever” is short enough that I don’t think manipulating it helps any and it probably would also start putting your blades too close to the hook. 

[fin]

12 minutes ago, LrgmouthShad said:

I’m thinking that doing it to a SB that has a short distance from head to bend does not make sense. The “lever” is short enough that I don’t think manipulating it helps any and it probably would also start putting your blades too close to the hook. 

Yeah, I dunno, you're probably right.

 

It’s interesting looking at that TW page and looking at the variations in all the designs.

 

I think I understand what you’re chasing with this post, and it’s a worthy endeavor, but I think you’ll find it elusive. There are some rules, like @Jigfishn10 listed, but each element of the spinnerbait affects the other in the design, so it makes it hard to law down hard, fast rules for each element of design. I’ve kind of given up trying to predict how a bait will run, and just make my best guess and then put it to the test in the water. If it doesn’t work, I adjust accordingly. Trial and error, but using what I have learned in the past. But a lot of error.

[LrgmouthShad]

16 minutes ago, fin said:

Yeah, I dunno, you're probably right.

 

It’s interesting looking at that TW page and looking at the variations in all the designs.

 

I think I understand what you’re chasing with this post, and it’s a worthy endeavor, but I think you’ll find it elusive. There are some rules, like @Jigfishn10 listed, but each element of the spinnerbait affects the other in the design, so it makes it hard to law down hard, fast rules for each element of design. I’ve kind of given up trying to predict how a bait will run, and just make my best guess and then put it to the test in the water. If it doesn’t work, I adjust accordingly. Trial and error, but using what I have learned in the past. But a lot of error.

I have learned a lot thus far! I think I also just figured something else out. If the blade arm is bent down towards the hook so that the blades run closer to the hook, I believe it helps the spinnerbait run more horizontal. I held the two blade on the wire with my hand, supporting the spinnerbait only with that one hand cupped underneath the blades so I could visualize the effect of blade lift. Now, I used two identical spinnerbaits. One with the wire bent closer to the hook, and the other with the wire bent more upwards. The one with the wire bent towards the hook laid flatter, actually pretty darn flat, and now that I think about it, unsurprisingly. To neglect the effect of my hand being influenced by the wire angler, I then pinched the loop and held only there and same effect. 
 

This is what you do when you can’t fish

[Jigfishn10]

1 hour ago, Deleted account said:

 

Yeah, and after, I'd get canonized...  

Oh, get on wich ya…  

 

@fin I can’t agree more with your last post. Waaay to many variables for this jigfishhead. Put your best design together, fish, adjust and compensate. Mark as prototype and build another and keep chasing Goldilocks. 
 

My opinion on bearings. The bearings have a fixed housing and a pin on a bearing that rotates inside the housing. I install so the the pin that rotates is on the blade and NOT attached to the p-bend of the wire. 
 

Can anyone guess why?

[LrgmouthShad]

10 minutes ago, LrgmouthShad said:

If the blade arm is bent down towards the hook so that the blades run closer to the hook, I believe it helps the spinnerbait run more horizontal.

Dang it! Now I think I’m wrong for some reasons. Still investigating…

[Jigfishn10]

Ok, back down the rabbit hole @LrgmouthShad. Be careful about bending the arm so far. Consider this:

A Colorado blade will spin in a 45-50* angle, Indiana 30-35* and willow 25*ish. So you can see if you bend the arm too far the Colorado will bang into the hook.

[LrgmouthShad]

Just now, Jigfishn10 said:

So you can see if you bend the arm too far the Colorado will bang into the hook.

yup! I be thinking about that. But actually I think I was wrong about bending the wire down. I’m looking further into it.

[Jigfishn10]

The closer the blade rotates to the bait the more stable

[LrgmouthShad]

14 minutes ago, LrgmouthShad said:

yup! I be thinking about that. But actually I think I was wrong about bending the wire down. I’m looking further into it.

Just kidding I actually think I was right. But for a much different reason than I thought and much different than my silly little experiment. It’s not “lift” that causes the spinnerbait to tilt. It’s the blade drag, because it’s at an angle with the wire. Too much drag tilts the entire spinnerbait upwards. And I think, as TB pointed out, even potentially while the spinnerbait is not rising. A greater wire angle increases the angle between drag and wire, further increasing the effect. Its not weight vs “lift”! It is weight versus drag! 

6 minutes ago, Jigfishn10 said:

The closer the blade is to the axis of rotation the more stable the bait.

See above, I agree now

[LrgmouthShad]

@Jigfishn10 I think I’m wrong yet again ?. I don’t doubt that closer angle helps bait run better. I’m doubting that I understand the mechanics of it

[Jigfishn10]

I noticed on your profile that you like to workout.

 

Have you ever squat - back squat, front squat and overhead squat?

 

Take 100 lbs and front or back squat and compare it to overhead squat. You’ll notice that back squat and front squats are way more stable than overhead squats because the weight is closer to your base. The further away from your base the weight is the more your core has to work to stabilize the weight. 
 

Same with the blade distance away from the lead head of a SB.

[LrgmouthShad]

3 minutes ago, Jigfishn10 said:

I noticed on your profile that you like to workout.

I really wish I could be working out man. Still hurt.
 

And thanks for that analogy! 
 

I am going crazy over this, lol. There’s so much going on. 

 

 

[Jigfishn10]

1 minute ago, LrgmouthShad said:

I really wish I could be working out man. Still hurt.
 

And thanks for that analogy! 
 

I am going crazy over this, lol. There’s so much going on. 

I had to take a week off. Barbell felt like it was fastened to the floor.  I needed a break. Just been jump roping the past few days. 

 

Hope you mend up soon!

 

I enjoyed the topic. TY

[LrgmouthShad]

@Jigfishn10 Thank you! For now I’m  going to say that drag from blades is indeed causing a lift effect on the SB and actually causes the spinnerbait to want to aim downwards, counteracting the head weight which causes the SB to want to tilt upwards. Wire length and angles magnify or diminish the effect. Skirt and trailer drag add to blade drag.  
 

Now I’m going to walk away from this topic for now and continue with my evening. Y’all still free to contribute though! Lol 

[Jigfishn10]

More strands in a SB skirt, more lift. Put a plastic trailer on - anything like a ribbon tail, paddle tail, etc - it has lift. 
 

You’re right, drag = lift. 
 

Dismiss!  

[WRB]

2 hours ago, fin said:

 

You mean like how this spinnerbait has an extra bend to address that issue?

You need to rotate the photo so the blade wire is parallel to the top of the photo, about 45 degrees.

The blade on the wire clevis can’t spin forward around the wire as shown.

Tom

 

 

Someone needs to see a underwater video how the+spinner baits run, the blade wire is inline with the line pulling direction.

Basically there are 3 blade types, willow, Indiana and Colorado. Modifications of those 3 blades create different vibration, not lift. Willow has the least water resistance highest lift, Indiana is between willow and Colorado regarding water resistance and lift with Colorado the highest water resistance and leases lift, therefore runs slower and deeper.

Cup increases vibration decreases water resistance. 

So many variations to try and keep up with.

Tom

[Jigfishn10]

Sorry, I’m not so sure I completely agree with the above post. I will however, agree to disagree.  

[fin]

Here’s another one from that page that has an extra bend, and this is the type rig where I first noticed how the bait doesn’t swim horizontal - when you have a long trailer. It becomes much more obvious. This one also has the clevis blade issue @WRB mentioned. I don’t know if that’s an issue or not. The wire angle relevance has always been a bit of a mystery to me. All I know for sure is I like a little smaller angle, generally.

 

I admit it’s really hard for me to understand a lot of these comments in this post. It’s not easy to describe this stuff.