Shimano Metanium Backlash Central

[ska4fun]

22 hours ago, Cjmm said:

Are you saying with the zillion it’s better to have a higher brake setting / more loose spool rather than lower brake setting and tighter spool tension? 

 

Yep. Zero-adjust it one time and only use the magforce dial. There is one exception for lures with terrible aerodynamics, like these with very large lips.

 

Tighter spool tensions should be avoided on mag brakes, because they don't allow a adequate magnetic field to be inducted in the spool rotor/inductor cup.

[Cjmm]

2 hours ago, ska4fun said:

 

Yep. Zero-adjust it one time and only use the magforce dial. There is one exception for lures with terrible aerodynamics, like these with very large lips.

 

Tighter spool tensions should be avoided on mag brakes, because they don't allow a adequate magnetic field to be inducted in the spool rotor/inductor cup.

I see. Right now 21 zillion spool is just a tad back n forth motion, just before snug which is like a 1/2 to 3/4 a turn from all the way tight. breaks around 5. So how do you normally set up magforce spool tension and brakes? I’m assuming you don’t do the ol let your lure slow drop to set tension. Thanks for feedback btw everyone. 

[diehardbassfishing]

3 hours ago, ska4fun said:

Tighter spool tensions should be avoided on mag brakes, because they don't allow a adequate magnetic field to be inducted in the spool rotor/inductor cup.

 

Sorry, but this in incorrect. Spool tension has no effect on magnetic field. Tension effects only the amount of friction a spool has from pressure against the spool axle.

 

50 minutes ago, Cjmm said:

I’m assuming you don’t do the ol let your lure slow drop to set tension

 

It's set correctly when there is zero spool side to side play, Adding a tiny bit more than that to "taste" is fine. But the old Abu Garcia classic round reel instruvtion for setting tension for slow drop isn't the Daiwa way.

 

 

Karl

[FishTank]

I have both the Zillion and the Metanium.  The Zillion has been flawless.  The Metanium has also been great but I did have to send one back that had a unfinished piece of plastic on the level wind. This would cause the line to catch and backlash.  It was easily fixed but when I called about it, Shimano said I should return it and get a new one. The new one has been fantastic and has become my favorite reel for jigs.

 

 

[PhishLI]

On 9/19/2022 at 11:59 AM, casts_by_fly said:

Set up identically (minimal tension, mid-level braking) and cast identically (I've swapped the reels between the same 3 rods a couple times now) they behave pretty similar. 

I'm going to make the assumption that you're primarily making short-ish casts with a pretty flat trajectory. Yes? You're primarily fishing from a yak, right? If I'm correct than I submit that here a reel's braking system is pretty much meaningless where spool weights are close. These are generally thumb-heavy casts to begin with. Even a Black Max will do fine here.

 

The real contrast between the Met B's 4 block SVS Infinity and the G's SV Boost is shown when you're pushing for distance with higher arc casts with wind catching or lighter wind catching baits from a standing position, which is something I do often. Most bass baits are wind catching to some degree, yes? While the Met B's brakes don't technically turn off close to the apex just before midcast where gravity begins to drag down spool speed, they effectively do, and you're on your own. Throw in some wind with something like a flat-sided crank and you're really on your own unless you've calibrated your stroke-to-bait's weight perfectly, then you still need to stay extra sharp. Just an aside: When they finally incorporate the 6 brake blocks into the met B I'd bet it'll be better.

 

On the other hand, I can dial down the G's SV brake to fluff and recover for max distance and not worry about it running away on the ascent, mid cast, or the descent. It's beautifully calibrated for this duty. I'm not claiming to cast thumb-free here. I'm monitoring the spool, but not leaning into the line and slowing down the spool to keep it in check.

 

Earlier in this thread I mentioned my buddy who got a Met B a few months ago and struggled with it. He went away to PA for vacation and sent me a fish pic. I asked if he caught it on the new rig, and how he was doing with his struggles. At that point he said he was doing better, but it was as if the line was burning his thumb from trying to keep the spool from blowing up. I tried not to laugh, but I did. True story. It isn't a surprise to me though as I've watched my friends fluff up, blow up, and pick out over-runs way more with MGL reels than any other type. Maybe they're all just sucky casters. Perhaps this braking system is too advanced for their meager skills. Me, I fish in the dark mostly, and can cast with anything without blowing up while distance/power casting into open water, but it isn't really a pleasure with a Met B. It is with the G though. No worries or surprises with it.

 

So there it is, IMO. You see them as interchangeable in a certain context, which if I'm correct about my assumptions about how you fish they may be, and I see them as quite different in a certain context where the experience is quite different. 

 

P.S. My buddy's fish pic mentioned earlier. He's a big kid. T'was a good one.

 

 

 

 

[casts_by_fly]

15 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

I'm going to make the assumption that you're primarily making short-ish casts with a pretty flat trajectory. Yes? You're primarily fishing from a yak, right? If I'm correct than I submit that a reel's braking system is pretty much meaningless where spool weights are close. These are generally thumb-heavy casts to begin with. Even a Black Max will do fine here.

 

The real contrast between the Met B's 4 block SVS Infinity and the G's SV Boost is shown when you're pushing for distance with higher arc casts with wind catching or lighter wind catching baits from a standing position, which is something I do often. Most bass baits are wind catching to some degree, yes? While the Met B's brakes don't technically turn off close to the apex just before midcast where gravity begins to drag down spool speed, they effectively do, and you're on your own. Throw in some wind with something like a flat-sided crank and you're really on your own unless you've calibrated your stroke-to-bait's weight perfectly, then you still need to stay extra sharp. Just an aside: When they finally incorporate the 6 brake blocks into the met B I'd bet it it'll be better.

 

On the other hand, I can dial down the G's SV brake to fluff and recover for max distance and not worry about it running away on the ascent, mid cast, or the descent. It's beautifully calibrated for this duty. I'm not claiming to cast thumb-free here. I'm monitoring the spool, but not leaning into the line and slowing down the spool to keep it in check.

 

Earlier in this thread I mentioned my buddy who got a Met B a few months ago and struggled with it. He went away to PA for vacation and sent me a fish pic. I asked if he caught it on the new rig, and how he was doing with his struggles. At that point he said he was doing better, but it was as if the line was burning his thumb from trying to keep the spool from blowing up. I tried not to laugh, but I did. True story. It isn't a surprise to me though as I've watched my friends fluff up, blow up, and pick out over-runs way more with MGL reels than any other type. Maybe they all are just sucky casters. Perhaps this braking system is too advanced for their meager skills. Me, I fish in the dark mostly, and can cast with anything without blowing up while distance/power casting into open water, but it isn't really a pleasure with a Met B. It is with the G though. No worries or surprises with it.

 

So there it is, IMO. You see them as interchangeable in a certain context, which if I'm correct about my assumptions about how you fish they may be, and I see them as quite different in a certain context where the experience is quite different. 

 

P.S. My buddy's fish pic mentioned earlier. He's a big kid. T'was a good one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm afraid your assumptions aren't quite right.  While I do fish from a kayak all of the time, I'm standing all of the time and treating it like any other boat.  I've made about 6 sitting casts in the past 18 months.  Also, depending where I'm fishing and time of year, I can be pitching short, casting mid, or bombing casts.  In the spring I tend to bomb and overhead cast a lot more since grass isn't the issue and I'm covering water.  When I say bomb, I'm throwing crankbaits like DT and OG series in the 35-40 yard range across flats and points.  Similar for chatterbaits that time of year, though they wouldn't fall in the wind catching bucket since they are nearly an ounce total weight with lots of soft plastic.  Summer time long casts are normally ploppers (very aerodynamic) and buzzbaits (not aerodynamic).  So I do and have fished both shimano (chronarch MGL, not met yet) and Zillion with long casts and less than aerodynamic baits.  I'll stick to my position that if you're casting hard and really putting a lot of force into it (especially with a fast or very fast actioned rod) then the zillion can handle the start up acceleration better.  If you're using a slightly slower casting action or rod with a little more moderate fast action and not putting the same acceleration on the spool, then both are the same.

[ska4fun]

4 hours ago, Cjmm said:

I see. Right now 21 zillion spool is just a tad back n forth motion, just before snug which is like a 1/2 to 3/4 a turn from all the way tight. breaks around 5. So how do you normally set up magforce spool tension and brakes? I’m assuming you don’t do the ol let your lure slow drop to set tension. Thanks for feedback btw everyone. 

 

I only use lure dropping for centrifugal brakes. Just the most minimal side play and everything handled by the braking dial, above 12 position.

 

 

3 hours ago, diehardbassfishing said:

 

Sorry, but this in incorrect. Spool tension has no effect on magnetic field. Tension effects only the amount of friction a spool has from pressure against the spool axle.

 

 

It's set correctly when there is zero spool side to side play, Adding a tiny bit more than that to "taste" is fine. But the old Abu Garcia classic round reel instruvtion for setting tension for slow drop isn't the Daiwa way.

 

 

Karl

 

Don't be sorry. You are plainly wrong, but in a very authoritative way. Spool tension control rotation, when the spool is disengaged. Aluminum is a paramagnetic metal, and under rotation and influence of the magnets, develops a counter EMF, in opposition to the one on them. Lenz Law.

 

There is plenty of data over this matter. It's just basic understanding over magnetic braking.

[PhishLI]

8 hours ago, casts_by_fly said:

I'm afraid your assumptions aren't quite right.  While I do fish from a kayak all of the time, I'm standing all of the time and treating it like any other boat.  I've made about 6 sitting casts in the past 18 months.  Also, depending where I'm fishing and time of year, I can be pitching short, casting mid, or bombing casts.  In the spring I tend to bomb and overhead cast a lot more since grass isn't the issue and I'm covering water.  When I say bomb, I'm throwing crankbaits like DT and OG series in the 35-40 yard range across flats and points. 

OK, but that isn't what you wrote last month. In that case 75 feet isn't a bomb cast, but let's put that aside because we clearly see things differently, and nearly in reverse.

 

You wrote:

"what is the SV BOOST experience in plain words to you?  I know what the marketing blurb is, but what lures, weights, presentations does it come into play for you?  I might not be taking advantage of it.  For me, I run reels loose now, negligible spool tension, and turn up the brakes to my liking.  If I’m throwing more than 3/4 oz and throwing shorter I might turn up the spool tension to save my thumb a little.  For both reels I’ve been using them in the ‘normal’ bass lure range of 3/8-1/2 oz most of the time, and the ‘average’ casting range up to 25 yards or so."

 

Mag brakes require a controlled power stroke when dialed in for distance casting, or you'll blow up instantly. The oppositional forces are built up slower during startup than friction brakes and are in play throughout the greater part of mid-ascent through the apex, then decrease gradually through the descent. This is where some feel that standard SV air brakes are choked off. On the other hand, friction brakes are on fast then behave as if they're off faster, depending on their design, which allows for a whip cast. If we don't agree on this, then we won't agree on this particular matter, and that's OK. No big deal, truly.

[casts_by_fly]

20 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

OK, but that isn't what you wrote last month. In that case 75 feet isn't a bomb cast, but let's put that aside because we clearly see things differently, and nearly in reverse.

 

You wrote:

"what is the SV BOOST experience in plain words to you?  I know what the marketing blurb is, but what lures, weights, presentations does it come into play for you?  I might not be taking advantage of it.  For me, I run reels loose now, negligible spool tension, and turn up the brakes to my liking.  If I’m throwing more than 3/4 oz and throwing shorter I might turn up the spool tension to save my thumb a little.  For both reels I’ve been using them in the ‘normal’ bass lure range of 3/8-1/2 oz most of the time, and the ‘average’ casting range up to 25 yards or so."

 

Mag brakes require a controlled power stroke when dialed in for distance casting, or you'll blow up instantly. The oppositional forces are built up slower during startup than friction brakes and are in play throughout the greater part of mid-ascent through the apex, then decrease gradually through the descent. This is that part where some feel that standard SV air brakes are choked off. On the other hand, friction brakes are on fast then behave as they're off faster, depending on their design, which allows for a whip cast. If we don't agree on this, then we won't agree on this particular matter, and that's OK. No big deal, truly.

 

No, 25 yards is an average cast and what I'll be doing much of the time.  That's not to say that I don't fish them longer.  A bomb cast is a two hand full out overhead cast pushing out 40 yards or so.  I'd never consider 25 yards a bomb cast and I'd never cast that distance overhead anyway.  That's a sidearm or roll cast.

 

Maybe I'm missing something here or not articulating well enough.  I understand how centrifugal brakes work- the faster the spool spins the more force pushing the brakes outward.  I still see the diawa brakes handling the sudden spool speeds better than the shimano brakes (and the abu infini and IVCB systems).  Maybe I'm not pushing the same distance or light enough lures to see it.  

 

So as to have the same vocabulary, what are you talking about for distance casting (distance, rod type, and lure) when talking about setting up for distance casting?  I have no problems sending a 3/8 DT-6 to 40 yards on a 7' MH/MF rod.  Red eye shads go further on the same setup (1/2 oz) but of course they would.  That's about the max I will cast and the lures I commonly cast that far.  A buzzbait I can cast 35-40 and do at times, but try to limit it to less.

[ska4fun]

2 hours ago, casts_by_fly said:

 

No, 25 yards is an average cast and what I'll be doing much of the time.  That's not to say that I don't fish them longer.  A bomb cast is a two hand full out overhead cast pushing out 40 yards or so.  I'd never consider 25 yards a bomb cast and I'd never cast that distance overhead anyway.  That's a sidearm or roll cast.

 

Maybe I'm missing something here or not articulating well enough.  I understand how centrifugal brakes work- the faster the spool spins the more force pushing the brakes outward.  I still see the diawa brakes handling the sudden spool speeds better than the shimano brakes (and the abu infini and IVCB systems).  Maybe I'm not pushing the same distance or light enough lures to see it.  

 

So as to have the same vocabulary, what are you talking about for distance casting (distance, rod type, and lure) when talking about setting up for distance casting?  I have no problems sending a 3/8 DT-6 to 40 yards on a 7' MH/MF rod.  Red eye shads go further on the same setup (1/2 oz) but of course they would.  That's about the max I will cast and the lures I commonly cast that far.  A buzzbait I can cast 35-40 and do at times, but try to limit it to less.

 

And you are right about daiwa handling sudden speeds changes. Thanks to the magnetic nature of magforce braking systems. Actually with magforce Z/V and its derivatives, daiwa blend the befenfits of centrifugal braking (better highspin braking) and magnetic one (continuous control for all the  cast). The mobile inductor cup gives a non-linear centrifugal-like behavior for the magforce Z/V. 

 

IVCB-II brakes, with ceramic blocks and polished braking plate almost mimicry a mag brake. It's the most advanced centrifugal braking system I ever used. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by ska4fun
Add more info for IVCB

[casts_by_fly]

2 hours ago, ska4fun said:

 

And you are right about daiwa handling sudden speeds changes. Thanks to the magnetic nature of magforce braking systems. Actually with magforce Z/V and its derivatives, daiwa blend the befenfits of centrifugal braking (better highspin braking) and magnetic one (continuous control for all the  cast). The mobile inductor cup gives a non-linear centrifugal-like behavior for the magforce Z/V. 

 

IVCB-II brakes, with ceramic blocks and polished braking plate almost mimicry a mag brake. It's the most advanced centrifugal braking system I ever used. 

the ivcb-6 in the current revo stx might be my favorite system on the market. It’s very very good. Shame they aren’t taking it forward. The ivcb-4 isn’t as good to me. 

[ska4fun]

35 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

the ivcb-6 in the current revo stx might be my favorite system on the market. It’s very very good. Shame they aren’t taking it forward. The ivcb-4 isn’t as good to me. 

I was refering to the IVCB-VI, the best centrifugal brake I ever used. Revo MGX2.

[casts_by_fly]

24 minutes ago, ska4fun said:

I was refering to the IVCB-VI, the best centrifugal brake I ever used. Revo MGX2.

i have the regular mgx2 (not the extreme) which is the ivcb-iv with four blocks inside.  I don’t prefer that one. The ivcb-6 in the current STX is far better. In the 4 you can’t chose to lock down any blocks. I have to keep the brakes on max at all times to not backlash anything I’m casting. I have to add more thumb or spool tension to keep it in control. The STX I don’t thumb, I don’t add spool tension, and I don’t backlash.

[Phil77]

I have a Met20 on the yak for senko's/flukes. I can absolutely lob both using a wrist flick or just my elbows. If you go happy Gilmore style and put your back or shoulders into it you will blow it up. I keep mine with two blocks on and the dial around 3 or 4. My steez sv tw is the same, if you try to lob it it will blow up but if you just use your wrists it will lob any lure a good distance. Set all four brakes on the spool to the on position and start with the dial at max and cast just using your elbows, once you get the hang of it work your way down on the dial and the spool blocks. The SVS has a steep learning curve compared to the older VBS but it can be learned/tamed.

[diehardbassfishing]

22 hours ago, ska4fun said:

Don't be sorry. You are plainly wrong, but in a very authoritative way. Spool tension control rotation, when the spool is disengaged. Aluminum is a paramagnetic metal, and under rotation and influence of the magnets, develops a counter EMF, in opposition to the one on them. Lenz Law.

 

OK - Now I see the wording issue here. We both know how the two spool control systems work. We just see and explain the actions differently.

 

I look at it from the spool's perspective. Spool tension directly affects the amount of friction that a spool feels. THAT THEN affects spool rotation speed, which will have an affect any type of centrifugal spool control system.

 

 

Karl

 

[Deleted account]

You guys remind me of the guys arguing about which of their bikes climbs hills better, When the conversation invariably comes to me, preferably 1/2 way up the climb, I just answer "whichever I'm sitting on at the time", then proceed to explain, only to find out I'm talking to myself...

[ska4fun]

1 hour ago, diehardbassfishing said:

 

OK - Now I see the wording issue here. We both know how the two spool control systems work. We just see and explain the actions differently.

 

I look at it from the spool's perspective. Spool tension directly affects the amount of friction that a spool feels. THAT THEN affects spool rotation speed, which will have an affect any type of centrifugal spool control system.

 

 

Karl

 

 

Yep...

[JustJames]

Man fishing is hard ???

[casts_by_fly]

On 9/17/2022 at 10:29 AM, Cjmm said:

Hey everyone. I’ve always read information on here but never posted or commented. Anyway I cannot figure out this dang metanium 2020. It backlashes constantly. Light lures, heavy lures, brakes on 4 or brakes on 2. Heavy bombing to lobbing. It’s the JDM version. Now I have a Daiwa zillion that casts a mile and rarely ever backlashes and that’s even with bombing it. I saw someone said if the spool isn’t engaged correctly that it can cause backlash but I’m pretty sure mines correct because it tightens when I tighten the spool tension and it’ll loosen when I loosen the knob. Has anyone had this issue with the new metanium? Also I have 40 lb sufix 832 braid to a PLine 12 or 15 lb flouro. Thanks. 

 

Circling back to the original question.  My Met 20 arrived earlier today so of course I had to spool it up and take it out in the yard.  I'll fish it this weekend for a better picture, but I'm going to say that if you're constantly backlashing with it then either there is something wrong with the reel or something wrong with the user.  I put it on my 6'10" H/F 1/4-3/4 head turner since that's where its going to live.  This is normally my swim jig/chatterbait/spinnerbait rod and it had a swim jig already tied on so that went onto it.  I did my standard setup (zero tension or movement in the spool, internal brakes half on/off, external dial in the middle) and made a nice easy sidearm throw like normal (25 yards) and it behaved as expected.  I did a soft overhead lob and same result.  I then backed off and started winging them at 35-40 yards, casting as hard as I can into the rod.  No backlash other than when I left my thumb off the spool for it to land and I got a dozen over rotations.  I'll give it a better work out this weekend, but it behaves just like the chronarch MGL which is exactly what I'd expect.  

 

------

Added edit a little later:

 

I'm going to refine my statement above just a little.  My meeting ended early and I was curious what it takes to backlash this reel so I went back out to the yard.  There is a very fine line of adjustment in the brakes between no issue and blown up.  With a normal light sidearm flick/rollcast the difference from 4/3/2 on the dial is basically don't worry about it/thumb at the ready/you're picking line out.  The braking force curve is pretty steep on this one.  Overhead lobs (not bombs) were a touch worse (more backlashing) for the same distance/effort in the cast as the roll cast.  Supporting PHishLI's point above about centrifugal brakes, bombing with a high initial speed actually tamed things a little better than lobbing for the same distance.  The quicker startup on the spool engaged the brakes quicker and slowed things down, though the net result was the same length of cast with a bit more manual effort (but no backlash).

 

Now keep in mind that this was just testing and trying to blow it up.   In a real fishing setting I'd probably set it on 3.5-4 and just fish.  If I started to blow up because of wind or something else, then dial it up and if I thought I wasn't getting the distance I needed I'd dial it back until it starts to backlash.

 

to solve this problem, I'd say set all 4 brakes to be 'on', i.e. free swinging, set your brakes to 6, and set your spool tension to be a slow drop with a single revolution when the lure hits the ground.  That's a lot of restriction, but if you can cast it like that and blow it up, then there is something wrong with the reel.  If not, then start backing off spool tension, then start working down brakes.

Edited September 22, 2022 by casts_by_fly
added more details.

[GetFishorDieTryin]

My JDM met is a little finicky.  Normally I like to run my reels loose as possible, but I have to use either 3 or 4 brakes on with moderate external brakes or 2 brakes on with substantial external brakes anywhere from 4-5.  Sometimes the spool wont seat right and no matter how the brakes are set it will nest up.  If the spool isnt in correct the spool tension won't really work correctly that's how you can tell if there is an issue. 

[new2BC4bass]

On 9/19/2022 at 7:04 AM, Cjmm said:

Are you saying with the zillion it’s better to have a higher brake setting / more loose spool rather than lower brake setting and tighter spool tension? 

I thought this was the proper way to set up Magforce Z reels, i.e. loose spool/more brakes if needed.  That's how I run mine.  Very, very seldom do I need to tighten spool tension a bit.

 

I found it required more work (for me) setting up Shimano's new braking system.  Never a problem with the old system.  Easy, peazy.

 

[Cbump]

On 9/17/2022 at 10:29 PM, WRB said:

Not every reel comes out of the box ready to fish, they are mass produced and assembled, then tested by the user.

My advice is have the reel professionally tuned and set up to perform as it should. 

Dan Isaac is a top Shimano reel technition who knows these reel far better then anyone on this site. Simple to eliminate any tuning tuning issues.

Tom

I know this is an old thread but I just got this reel. If I buy a $300 plus reel and then have to immediately have It professionally set up and tuned, that’s a problem to me. 

[FishTank]

1 hour ago, Cbump said:

I know this is an old thread but I just got this reel. If I buy a $300 plus reel and then have to immediately have It professionally set up and tuned, that’s a problem to me. 

 

Most of the reels I have purchased have not been 100% out of the box. I do the basics when I get a new one. I oil and lube the spots needed or in some cases remove the excessive grease from insides. Most Daiwas are dry to the bone. Shimano it's a toss up. Some Lew's reels have been drenched in grease. I clean them and get them to my liking.  I have also had a few that have performed better after being fished hard for a few months, like they needed to be broken in. 

[T2DM]

1 hour ago, Cbump said:

I know this is an old thread but I just got this reel. If I buy a $300 plus reel and then have to immediately have It professionally set up and tuned, that’s a problem to me. 

It may not be the reel if it's not making any kind of weird noise while casting. Plus, it's likely a totally different braking system compared to what you're used to.

 

Try:

Turn on all the brake blocks.

Wipe the brake pipe clean.

Turn the external brake dial to max.

Eliminate the spool side to side play (apply more pressure if needed)

Start with 3/8oz or 1/2oz non bulky lure, like a lipless crankbait.

Give it a go then slowly dial down the external brake after a few casts to get some distance.

 

I hope this helps. Good luck.

[ShyBass]

4 hours ago, Cbump said:

If I buy a $300 plus reel and then have to immediately have It professionally set up and tuned, that’s a problem to me. 

You shouldn't need to. I own two JDM models and haven't had any problems thus far. I set them both to 2 or 3 on the internal brakes and 4-6 on the external dial. It can be temperamental/sensitive, but I wouldn't say the metanium requires more thumbing than any other shimano I've owned once dialed in. Whether bombing or making short pitches.