Distance Away from Channel

[RDB]

45 minutes ago, WRB said:

Deer are not predators

I said deer and many other game animals and you chose to cherry pick to attempt to make a point.  But thanks for cleaning up that deer aren’t predators.  I won’t share how long I have hunted.

[WRB]

9 minutes ago, RDB said:

I said deer and many other game animals and you chose to cherry pick to attempt to make a point.  But thanks for cleaning up that deer aren’t predators.  I won’t share how long I have hunted.

You missed the point of this topic.

I didn’t start hunting before age 15 and stopped about 5 years ago.

Tom

 

[RDB]

1 minute ago, WRB said:

You missed the point of this topic.

I didn’t start hunting before age 15 and stopped about 5 years ago.

Tom

 

I’m missing the point of this comment as well.  My comment about not sharing how long I have hunted (or fished) was a tongue in cheek reference to you always pointing out your 70 years of unimpeachable fishing wisdom when challenged.

[WRB]

Sometimes my black & white tunnel engineer’s view point get in my way of seeing humor, peace.

Tom 

[Catt]

Sign post?

 

Ya mean breaks/breaklines?

 

Recent radio telemetry study done on Toledo Bend by Texas Parks & Wildlife Head Biologist Todd Driscoll. One of the bass tracked is an 8#+ that is located  on a single stump on a huge nondescript flat that has no breaks/breaklines "sign post" or deepwater within 100 yards.

 

John Hope spent 22 years tracking bass with radio telemetry. 

 

“If there was an average a fish travels in a given day, week or month it would be 250-350 yards for most fish,” John said. He went on to explain, “If you put a cow in a pasture in east Texas it will probably wander in a 50 yard circle in any given day and eat all the grass it wants. Take that same cow and drop it in west Texas (more cactus and rocks than grass) and it may have to travel a mile to get the same amount of grass. The same could be said for a fish that lives in a hydrilla bed on Toledo Bend, vs one that roams the rock ledges of a lake in Missouri.” John’s point was that range depends to a large degree on environment, or more specifically the availability of food. 

[T-Billy]

On 9/6/2022 at 9:48 PM, WRB said:

Do you have a boat with a sonar unit?

Summer warm water period your lake develops a thermocline. Warmer surface water being lighter weight sits on top of cooler deeper water creating a layer called a thermocline. Bass don’t like to go deeper then the thermocline layer when it has developed.

Basically you can eliminate water deeper then a thermocline.

For example the layer could be at 25’ no reason to fish or look deeper water.

River channels and long under water points that drop into the channel are only important above the thermocline.

If a channel swing break at 25’ to 30’ is close to shallower water with a dock bass tend to located there. 

How far will a bass travel is related to the bait fish nearby, Bass stay close to their food source.

Tom

 

While this holds true for alot of fish. It doesn't apply to all. Especially big ones. I have a friend who regularly catches big smallies all summer long below the thermocline. I've also talked to musky guys who catch big brown bass deep in summer while trolling for essox. Like most things in fishing, staying above the thermocline is a guideline that will likely produce the best numbers, but it's not absolute.

[RDB]

3 hours ago, Catt said:

Sign post?

 

Ya mean breaks/breaklines?

 

Recent radio telemetry study done on Toledo Bend by Texas Parks & Wildlife Head Biologist Todd Driscoll. One of the bass tracked is an 8#+ that is located  on a single stump on a huge nondescript flat that has no breaks/breaklines "sign post" or deepwater within 100 yards.

 

John Hope spent 22 years tracking bass with radio telemetry. 

 

“If there was an average a fish travels in a given day, week or month it would be 250-350 yards for most fish,” John said. He went on to explain, “If you put a cow in a pasture in east Texas it will probably wander in a 50 yard circle in any given day and eat all the grass it wants. Take that same cow and drop it in west Texas (more cactus and rocks than grass) and it may have to travel a mile to get the same amount of grass. The same could be said for a fish that lives in a hydrilla bed on Toledo Bend, vs one that roams the rock ledges of a lake in Missouri.” John’s point was that range depends to a large degree on environment, or more specifically the availability of food. 

No I don’t mean breaklines, I mean signposts.  Signposts are basically guides.  It could be a stump, a rock pile, a ridge, a point, a channel, a weed line, a contour, etc., etc.  Scrapes and rubs are examples of signposts for deer.  If I told you to turn left at the 7-Eleven, that would be a signpost.  A thermocline is not really a sign post, just like a bird sitting on a power line is not a signpost.  As an example, as bass move from winter spots to prepare for the spawn, they will typically make that journey (whatever distance) via signposts, often staging in certain areas along the way like secondary points or channel swings close to spawning flats.  This is especially true with big bass.  That is one of the reasons why we look for spots on spots.  Big bass on a ridge or off a point will often choose spots that offer additional concealment and ease of movement.  That’s why we look for things like channel swings off a point or a rock pile on the steep side.  Typical bass movement is not random.  This doesn’t mean they always use the same routes.  Just that bass typically move in a connect the dot fashion.  Bass are patternable, just like humans and most other creatures.  That doesn’t mean every bass behaves the same, just like humans, but that doesn’t change the fact that patterns exist.  The question is can we decipher the pattern.

 

Since everyone seems to want to use random studies to explain away non controversial bass behavior, let’s talk about telemetry studies that are more applicable.  There have been numerous tracking studies on tournament released bass.  In many cases, the bass is released far from where they were caught.  In some cases, the bass eventually returns to the location they were caught, but some never return.  It makes total sense.  If I blindfolded you and dropped you off at your work, you wouldn’t have a difficult time finding your way home.  And chances are you would use your typical route via signposts.  If I dropped you off on a farm in the next state, it’s going to be a challenge.

 

Behavior is typically not random.

 

Edit: Some breaklines can be signposts but not all.  A mud line or shadow is not a signpost.

[Catt]

Breakline: A breakline can have more than one meaning. It can be another word for a drop-off/ledge, or a point of any quick change in depth. It can also be used to describe the edge of a vegetation line. For example, a "weed break" is the area of the weed bed where the weeds meet up with open water; or, where one type of weed meets up with another. The last example happens when bottom composition changes, as different weeds prefer different types of bottom composition. In rocky impoundments, a breakline can also describe a line where rock meets mud, pea gravel, etc. In other words, the most correct definition for a breakline is "Any distinct line that is made by cover or structure which leads to an abrupt change in bottom depth, composition, or cover transition".

 

Breaks are stopping points along breaklines.

 

Basic structure 101 by Elwood "Buck" Perry 

[RDB]

 

50 minutes ago, Catt said:

Breakline: A breakline can have more than one meaning. It can be another word for a drop-off/ledge, or a point of any quick change in depth. It can also be used to describe the edge of a vegetation line. For example, a "weed break" is the area of the weed bed where the weeds meet up with open water; or, where one type of weed meets up with another. The last example happens when bottom composition changes, as different weeds prefer different types of bottom composition. In rocky impoundments, a breakline can also describe a line where rock meets mud, pea gravel, etc. In other words, the most correct definition for a breakline is "Any distinct line that is made by cover or structure which leads to an abrupt change in bottom depth, composition, or cover transition".

 

Breaks are stopping points along breaklines.

 

Basic structure 101 by Elwood "Buck" Perry 

Let’s not get into it again.  I am very familiar with what breaklines are and I was not referring to breaklines,  You are the one who equated the two and got off on a different topic…seems to be a trend.  Breaklines can be signposts but not all breaklines are signposts…there is a difference.  This is not my first rodeo but you can have this one…thanks for the education.
 

50 minutes ago, Catt said:

Breaks are stopping points along breaklines.

And that break is a great example of a type signpost.  Signposts are an overall term for these types of things.  Instead of arguing, take some time to read the post…then we can have an honest discussion.

50 minutes ago, Catt said:

Breakline: A breakline can have more than one meaning. It can be another word for a drop-off/ledge, or a point of any quick change in depth. It can also be used to describe the edge of a vegetation line.

Yes…and it can be a shadow line, mud line, thermocline, hard bottom to soft bottom, a change in vegetation type, the edge where no current meets current, etc.  It’s simple…the term is VERY descriptive of what it is.

[RDB]

13 minutes ago, RDB said:

a point of any quick change in depth

A point is a breakline…a quick change in depth is not a requirement.

[Choporoz]

My impression (at least in shad lakes) is that much of the year, bass movement appears to me to be dictated by food.  (I'm thinking movement measured in hundreds of yard....not localized movement....if that makes sense) 

   That doesn't mean random, but it also might mean a bass' location or travel path is somewhat independent of breaks, channels, landmarks, signposts, etc.  Unless, I guess, you extrapolate that prey is closely related to 'fixed places', but that seems a stretch.

[RDB]

40 minutes ago, Choporoz said:

My impression (at least in shad lakes) is that much of the year, bass movement appears to me to be dictated by food.  (I'm thinking movement measured in hundreds of yard....not localized movement....if that makes sense) 

   That doesn't mean random, but it also might mean a bass' location or travel path is somewhat independent of breaks, channels, landmarks, signposts, etc.  Unless, I guess, you extrapolate that prey is closely related to 'fixed places', but that seems a stretch.

I agree…signposts are just guides, just like breaklines can be guides.  A bass doesn’t have to be right on it for it to serve it’s purpose.  If I’m lost in the woods, I can use the sun as a signpost to travel.  There is a great story in the Bible about some wisemen who used a signpost to travel.  For example, a bass may be suspended 20 feet above a channel or 30 feet off a tree but they typically are still relating to something.  You typically don’t see bass suspended on a do nothing flat in deep water in the middle of the lake with no cover/structure for hundreds of yards.  Just because we don’t decipher the reason for movements or positioning doesn’t mean there isn’t a method to their madness.  Signposts are more useful in identifying movement to different locations.  A bass may roam a flat in what seems like a random fashion but chances are most (especially with big ones), are accessing that flat in a similar manner using some type of signpost.  I keep using deer as an example because it is easy to visualize because they are on land. Rubs are signposts and a rub line (a breakline) can be very useful in determining deer movement and possible ambush locations for hunters.  In this case, they likely travel the breakline and stop at the signpost.  Same with a fence corner, hardwood to scrub brush, and many more examples.  The fence is a breakline and the fence corner could be a signpost.

[RDB]

41 minutes ago, Choporoz said:

My impression (at least in shad lakes) is that much of the year, bass movement appears to me to be dictated by food.

Agree completely…but that doesn’t mean that they move to that food in a random manner.  As we get into the fall and shad migrate into the creeks, many bass will follow.  However, the vast majority of the bass are not going to just aimlessly wander back to the creeks.  They will follow some sort of path that makes them feel secure and affords ambush opportunities.  That doesn’t mean the entire migration needs to afford those elements.  Just that it’s not random, often repeated year after year, and will typically include signposts for navigation and pit stops.

[WRB]

Here is a quote from the late Bill Murphy from page 196 in his book In Pursuit of Giant Bass worth remembering.

”Bass are truly amazing creatures, and they’re much more complicated and sensitive then we like to believe”. “ Every time I read an article about someone who thinks they have bass all figured out, I just shake my head and snicker because the more you dig into this sport the farther you seem to be from getting to the bottom of it all”.

Tom

[Catt]

1 hour ago, RDB said:

Instead of arguing, take some time to read the post…then we can have an honest discussion.

 

Take some time to read Buck Perry he's pretty good on the subject.

 

Everything you're describing is a "break" located on a breakline. You just chose to change the name from what Buck called it.

[RDB]

8 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

Take some time to read Buck Perry he's pretty good on the subject.

 

Everything you're describing is a "break" located on a breakline. You just chose to change the name from what Buck called it.

 

9 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

Take some time to read Buck Perry he's pretty good on the subject.

 

Everything you're describing is a "break" located on a breakline. You just chose to change the name from what Buck called it.

You just like to argue for no reason.  THEY ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME THING.  A break in a breakline can be an example of a signpost but so can an isolated rock pile and many other things, a stump on an empty flat like you used in your earlier example, and on and on.  I don’t know how to explain my point any better.  You want to argue terminology and not consider what I am referring to.  Instead, you continue to double down.  I gave plenty of examples of signposts that were not associated with a breakline.  If you think I am pulling this out of my azz no angling history, you’re nuts.  Just because everyone doesn’t share their supposed history and claimed accomplishments doesn’t mean that there aren’t other accomplished anglers on this forum.  Some just choose humility and are comfortable enough that they don’t need measuring contests.

[roadwarrior]

This horse has been beaten to death...

Goodnight Irene.