Spotted Bass, good or bad?

[roadwarrior]

1 hour ago, Woody B said:

   What size Small Mouth is considered a trophy?   

 

That varies by region.  In most of the country, maybe 5 lbs. In Tennessee 7 lbs, but for those of us chasing "The Big One" it's 12 lbs.

 

 

                                    

[fin]

Record spot in Georgia is 8 lb 2 oz. Smallmouth is 7 lb 2 oz.

 

I don't think I've ever caught a spot over 3 lbs. Most around here are 1.5 - 2 lbs., and I've caught lots of those. There are no smallmouth in my neck of the woods.

[Ravox]

11 hours ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

And I would love to have more South FL Bass here.....lol 

 

Bet there are lots of places left down there with pure strain FLGM.    Florida is big Bass country from everything I've heard or known.   My mentor could have paid to fish anywhere, yet he kept going back to guided trips on the Big O, and another lake that was smaller, heavily vegetated where he really loved going to.   Said they fished huge shiners on bobbers amongst dense lily pads on basically salt water tackle.    He'd usually get a 9-10lb fish a trip.   

 

South Florida is mecca for fisherman in general, I mean from Stuart to the Keys is as good of saltwater fishing as is found anywhere in the world.   Stuart is the Sailfish capital of the world.   Then a dude on this forum is fishing the everglades for monster Bass like a madman, and he's being heavily rewarded.  You're blessed as an angler in South Florida for sure

That is true Florida is a fishing paradise indeed.... but I would love to have some spotted here because I think they are beautiful fish

[bulldog1935]

For endemic Guadalupe spotted bass, 15 inches is a lunker,

But on a fly rod 200-fish day, you don't really care. 

In high flows like this, they're stacked in deep plunge pools and eddies like cordwood.  You troll a Teeny sinking line in the current seams to probe for them. 

In the fall bite, same fish will be scattered in the riffles. 

[soflabasser]

Alabama spotted bass and spotted bass are 2 different species of black bass, they are not the same species, even though some think they are. Alabama spotted bass are not native to Georgia, spotted bass are. I have caught hybrid redeye bass, so I have personally seen how Alabama bass can be a problem for rare black bass species. There are many people with much more experience than me catching these hybrid redeye bass, and most of these people agree that Alabama bass threaten the long term survival of many black bass species. 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

3 minutes ago, soflabasser said:

Alabama spotted bass and spotted bass are 2 different species of black bass, they are not the same species, even though some think they are. Alabama spotted bass are not native to Georgia, spotted bass are. I have caught hybrid redeye bass, so I have personally seem how Alabama bass can be a problem for rare black bass species. There are many people with much more experience than me catching these hybrid redeye bass, and most of these people agree that Alabama bass threaten the long term survival of many black bass species. 

So let me get this straight, you're fine with Kentucky Spotted Bass, but Alabama Bass are killing your Redeye population off?  A Kentucky Spotted Bass won't hybridize with a Redeye Bass, but an Alabama Bass will?   What are your thoughts on bodies of water that once had aggressive northern only populations, that then got infused with FLGM strains, and vice versa?    Losing large amounts of lakes that produced monster pure strain FLGMs due to introduction of other sub species seems far more damaging to the sport.

 

I wish somebody would come along and explain with biology, genetics, and fish behavior how a Kentucky Spot and an Alabama Bass differ outside of the Alabama getting bigger.   Admittedly I don't have any answers, I'm only armed with seeing the effect on a 200-300acre lake I'm responsible for stocking with Alabama Bass while it already had a 20-30 year old thriving Northern LGM population.    Since introducing them 20-25 years ago, the lake remains both a big LGM lake, and an Alabama Bass lake.   Some nights/days I catch LGMs 10-1, then like yesterday I found schooling Spots, and caught them 10-1.   I bested my lake PB 3 weeks ago for LGM after fishing the lake for over 30yrs.   A fish biologist is the lake treasurer, we've had conversations about this as I was scared of what I might have done.     Like me, he sees line and reel evidence every single time he goes fishing that disproves this new science of the Alabama Bass being the boogeyman.  I'm trying to get him to get a Shock study done on the lake, but when you are happy with the fishery as it is, the motivation isn't really there.  

 

[WRB]

1 hour ago, soflabasser said:

Alabama spotted bass and spotted bass are 2 different species of black bass, they are not the same species, even though some think they are. Alabama spotted bass are not native to Georgia, spotted bass are. I have caught hybrid redeye bass, so I have personally seen how Alabama bass can be a problem for rare black bass species. There are many people with much more experience than me catching these hybrid redeye bass, and most of these people agree that Alabama bass threaten the long term survival of many black bass species. 

You referring to Northern/Kentucky Spotted Bass as “Spotted Bass”. Alabama Spotted Bass are Southern Spotted Bass.

Guadalupe Bass from west Texas are a separate Black Bass species, not a Spotted Bass.

Kentucky Spots don’t grow very big and very aggressive fish for that reason anglers get annoyed with dink size Spots chewing up the soft plastics considering them a pest.

Tom

PS, Northern Spot is micropterus punctuatas.

Southern Spot is micropterus henshalli

Guadalupe Bass is micropteruc treculii

There are 9 Black Bass species.

 

[Chris Catignani]

I know here is Tennessee, TWRA has some concerns about Alabama bass. The thinking is that they compete and hybridize with smallmouth and reduce the population.

Quote

As many states in the southeast are realizing, the introduction of Alabama Bass outside its native range can be devastating. Recent introductions in North Carolina and Georiga have altered bass populations and significantly reduced their numbers through competition and hybridization. In the case of Georgia’s Chatuge and Blue Ridge Lakes, the introduction of Alabama Bass has shattered the Smallmouth Bass fishery. Likewise, North Carolina’s Lake Norman has seen dramatic declines in Largemouth Bass populations.

Quote from here...

[TnRiver46]

7 minutes ago, Chris Catignani said:

I know here is Tennessee, TWRA has some concerns 

They stay concerned 

[Chris Catignani]

One thing that puzzles me some, is why Agencies get all up in arms about a species of fish occupying water...

Then on the flip side....cross Northern Large Mouth bass with Floridia strain bass in order to get a version of a LMB that grows faster and bigger. This is what's in Chickamauga. (Its too cold here for pure strain Floridia bass...this is why they are crossed)

 

4 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

They stay concerned 

...thus no size limit!

[Bankc]

I'm not a fan of spotted bass.  Their presence has led to a ton of interbreeding, as maybe 1 in 5 bass that I catch can be easily identified one way or the other.  And unfortunately, it's rare to catch any bass over 3lbs, regardless of what kind it is.  And something has virtually wiped out the smallmouth population around here.  I don't know if they're responsible.  It could be the white bass population, which is also thriving.  

 

But mostly, I just hate how they nibble and tear my soft plastics.  You'll feel a big pull, go to set the hook, and reel back half a worm.

 

But I don't normally throw a fit about it.  I've got a long list of complaints about our local lakes, and the presence of spotted bass has got to be near the bottom.  

[TnRiver46]

22 minutes ago, Chris Catignani said:

One thing that puzzles me some, is why Agencies get all up in arms about a species of fish occupying water...

Then on the flip side....cross Northern Large Mouth bass with Floridia strain bass in order to get a version of a LMB that grows faster and bigger. This is what's in Chickamauga. (Its too cold here for pure strain Floridia bass...this is why they are crossed)

 

...thus no size limit!

They will always do whatever brings in the most cash, the fish will always be just fine and they know it. “Threats” magically bring in 10-20 million dollars 

 

the river is like 400 million years old, it just laughs at all concerns 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

24 minutes ago, Chris Catignani said:

One thing that puzzles me some, is why Agencies get all up in arms about a species of fish occupying water...

Then on the flip side....cross Northern Large Mouth bass with Floridia strain bass in order to get a version of a LMB that grows faster and bigger. This is what's in Chickamauga. (Its too cold here for pure strain Floridia bass...this is why there crossed)

 

EXACTLY, Bass anglers & state DNRs have been playing "God" for decades and decades.  WRB posts about his state's history of stocking various nonnative species, and then the various stages of results illuminate this quite clearly.  In regard to the F1 Bass, the hybrid vigor does in fact make the grow faster, and much more aggressive, but to my knowledge I've never heard anywhere that they can outweigh a pure Florida LGM.   Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can weigh in on that aspect. 

 

WRB posts have been extremely interesting since I joined because he seems to have witnessed the birth, the boom, and now for lack of better words, the bust of these fisheries that many of us grew up dreaming of fishing one day.    Nothing about those world records or mega Bass that were being caught is "natural", but I have no problem with it, and only wished I could have been there to fish it.   

 

I'm a big believer in Natural Selection, and many other views attributed to Darwin.    I'm into Bengal cats, and genetics in general, very fascinating stuff.    What took an untold number of years of the Black Bass species to form 9 subspecies based on evolution(location), true natural selection(reproduction), and survival of the fittest (the wild card of evolution, a smarter Bass might live on to reproduce regardless of the fact the most aggressive or largest Bass reproduce the vast majority of the time)......was undone decades and decades ago by mankind's heavy manipulation of selective breeding, hybridizing, and transplanting these Black Bass sub species.   

 

To all of a sudden at this point in the game make the Alabama Bass the boogeyman is again quite hard for me to grasp after mankind's hand has been on the scale for decades and decades. 

 

I've never been ticked off at unhooking a Bass, and I've caught 5 of 9 of the sub species.   Not a single one is a trash fish, all should be respected and prized imho.   

[TnRiver46]

2 minutes ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

EXACTLY, Bass anglers & state DNRs have been playing "God" for decades and decades.  WRB posts about his state's history of stocking various nonnative species, and then the various stages of results illuminate this quite clearly.  In regard to the F1 Bass, the hybrid vigor does in fact make the grow faster, and much more aggressive, but to my knowledge I've never heard anywhere that they can outweigh a pure Florida LGM.   Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can weigh in on that aspect. 

 

WRB posts have been extremely interesting since I joined because he seems to have witnessed the birth, the boom, and now for lack of better words, the bust of these fisheries that many of us grew up dreaming of fishing one day.    Nothing about those world records or mega Bass that were being caught is "natural", but I have no problem with it, and only wished I could have been there to fish it.   

 

I'm a big believer in Natural Selection, and many other views attributed to Darwin.    I'm into Bengal cats, and genetics in general, very fascinating stuff.    What took an untold number of years of the Black Bass species to form 9 subspecies based on evolution(location), true natural selection(reproduction), and survival of the fittest (the wild card of evolution, a smarter Bass might live on to reproduce regardless of the fact the most aggressive or largest Bass reproduce the vast majority of the time)......was undone decades and decades ago by mankind's heavy manipulation of selective breeding, hybridizing, and transplanting these Black Bass sub species.   

 

To all of a sudden at this point in the game make the Alabama Bass the boogeyman is again quite hard for me to grasp after mankind's hand has been on the scale for decades and decades. 

 

I've never been ticked off at unhooking a Bass, and I've caught 5 of 9 of the sub species.   Not a single one is a trash fish, all should be respected and prized imho.   

Just follow the money

[AlabamaSpothunter]

Just now, TnRiver46 said:

Just follow the money

1000%.    If you follow the Mountain Lion sighting in some of these eastern states where their DNRs refuse to acknowledge an easily variable account of a Lion sighting, and then look into what the DNR has to gain by refusing such clear evidence, you realize how corrupt these state government organizations are....big shocker.

 

These DNRs won't admit a single Lion sighting because then they are generally required to use resources to protect, establish, and sustain a population.      It's all about the money, it really is. 

 

Ultimately like the fish biologist on my local lake says, the angler is the one with his hand on the pulse of the fishery, not a scientist, not a bureaucrat, but those actually fishing.    Nobody cares more about these fish than us, certainly not a state government agency. 

[TnRiver46]

4 minutes ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

1000%.    If you follow the Mountain Lion sighting in some of these eastern states where their DNRs refuse to acknowledge an easily variable account of a Lion sighting, and then look into what the DNR has to gain by refusing such clear evidence, you realize how corrupt these state government organizations are....big shocker.

 

These DNRs won't admit a single Lion sighting because then they are generally required to use resources to protect, establish, and sustain a population.      It's all about the money, it really is. 

 

Ultimately like the fish biologist on my local lake says, the angler is the one with his hand on the pulse of the fishery, not a scientist, not a bureaucrat, but those actually fishing.    Nobody cares more about these fish than us, certainly not a state government agency. 

Yeah they denied mountain lions in TN until about a dozen people had trail cam pics 

[Chris Catignani]

The grass roots solution to the problem

[TnRiver46]

2 minutes ago, Chris Catignani said:

The grass roots solution to the problem

That’s how I roll!!!!

 

people all over the globe starving, in America we whine about too many delicious bass 

[Chris Catignani]

1 minute ago, TnRiver46 said:

That’s how I roll!!!!

The Kentuckies on the Cumberland hate that buzz bait so bad...you catch one and end up netting two or three.

[soflabasser]

2 hours ago, WRB said:

There are 9 Black Bass species.

There are more than 9 black bass species. Fortunately I have caught most of them, and have researched them all since I enjoy catching different species of bass, besides the 3 most common ones everyone catches. Did you know there are introduced populations of redeye bass in certain parts of California? I strongly suggest you fish for them, they are beautiful fish.

3 hours ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

So let me get this straight, you're fine with Kentucky Spotted Bass, but Alabama Bass are killing your Redeye population off?  A Kentucky Spotted Bass won't hybridize with a Redeye Bass, but an Alabama Bass will?

Have you fished in Georgia before? If you have you would know Georgia has the most black bass species of any state and that Alabama spotted bass hybridize with many rare black bass species. I suggest everyone who loves to fish for bass to research the different species of black bass, where they are native, where they have been introduced, and the harm introduced Alabama bass, smallmouth bass, and other introduced black bass species can cause to native species.

22 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

In Texas, Smallmouth are the invasive species, because they interbreed with our endemic spotted bass. 

Our native bass retreat into the aquifer to survive drought, and spelunkers have fished for them. 

TPWD has a hatchery and stocking program trying to overwhelm feral smallmouth genes with endemic Guadalupe bass fingerlings. 

Pretty sure this girl is all Guadalupe by her blue sheen (she got this size eating baby bats in a bat nursery cave)

A-strain endemic Guadalupe bass isolated from smallmouth by aquifer recharge (the creek disappears into the ground to re-emerge in the coastal plain)

There are only two remaining A-strains, they're extinct in the Blanco River except for state stocking.

this copper-sheen kid is a smallie hybrid

When KT Diaries did an episode on our endemic bass, I took him fishing. 

 

@soflabasser spotted bass will interbreed with smallmouth and, of course, other spotted bass species, but do not interbreed with largemouth. 

Those Guadalupe bass are beautiful fish, thank you for sharing these photos. Introduced smallmouth bass are a big threat to the native Guadalupe bass, and I hope Texas succeeds in increasing the population of Guadalupe bass.

[WRB]

California has;

Northern strain LMB

Florida strain LMB

Smallmouth bass

Northern (Kentucky) Spotted bass

Southern (Alabama) Spotted bass

Red Eye bass

We don’t have

Shoal bass

Swuanee Bass 

Gaudalupe bass

Intergrades between FLMB and NLMB aren’t a separate species nor are hybrids.

Tom

[AlabamaSpothunter]

15 minutes ago, WRB said:

California has;

Northern strain LMB

Florida strain LMB

Smallmouth bass

Northern (Kentucky) Spotted bass

Southern (Alabama) Spotted bass

Red Eye bass

We don’t have

Shoal bass

Swanee Bass 

Gaudalupe bass

Intergrades between FLMB and NLMB aren’t a separate species nor are hybrids.

Tom

Do you or does anyone else know if F1s are sterile like almost every other early generation hybrid male.   For example in Bengal cats, F1s are 99% of the time sterile.

 

Then what happens when a northern or FLGM fertilizes a F1 female's eggs.....there is likely a good chance many of those males will be sterile.   

 

I need to research these F1s more I guess   

[bulldog1935]

if hybrids are sterile, there is no issue, e.g., leopmis sp. sunfish hybrids occur naturally. 

Note the body of a green sunfish female and the head and fin markings of a male long-ear. 

(blue in its dorsal fin, especially in the back)

The problem is when the genes are diluted throughout the population and entire watershed - or even the entire range of an endemic species. 

If the genes are contained by barriers, it's not an issue. 

State wildlife departments turned our rivers and reservoirs into their aquariums in the 1970s, and we're all paying the price now.  Their mistakes without study of long-term genetic effects on widespread fish populations has raised caution in the younger generation now managing our fisheries. 

 

In the Rockies, the push is to save native Cutthroat trout from rainbows, which are only native to Pacific-coast drainage.  E.g., in McKittrick Canyon, Guadalupe Mountains NP, a wild rainbow population there overtook native Rio Grande Cutthroat when an excess load of rainbows was dumped there in 1920.  The current trend is identify stretches of river that are isolated by waterfalls and natural barriers, kill everything with piscicides, and stock native trout that belong there. 

 

A species can be perfect for its habitat, e.g., endemic Guadalupe bass retreating into aquifer caves to survive drought.  The problem is when they lose that ability, and become threatened as a species over their entire range, such as what happened to our designated State Fish during my lifetime. 

 

If I OP'ed a thread saying that smallmouth bass are bad, it would be incorrect, and generate the kind of polarization that exists on this thread. 

Smallmouth (and stocked trout) are ok in the coldwater tailrace below Canyon Dam - this is the southern extent of endemic bass range, and the cold water is too cold for several native species to spawn, including endemic bass and white bass.  There's also no way for smallmouth genes to move upriver past the dam. ....(spawning trout on the right)

If I made it clear that smallmouth stocked in Texas hill country during the 1970s, including above Canyon Dam, was destructive, that is totally correct.  Imagine an entire watershed where the native fish is extinct (the Blanco).  Now there are only two isolated A-strains of the species.  Again, the state approach is to overwhelm the feral genes by stocking fingerlings from A-strain hatchery fish. But when that stops, the species becomes extinct, just like in the Blanco. 

[WRB]

38 minutes ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

Do you or does anyone else know if F1s are sterile like almost every other early generation hybrid male.   For example in Bengal cats, F1s are 99% of the time sterile.

 

Then what happens when a northern or FLGM fertilizes a F1 female's eggs.....there is likely a good chance many of those males will be sterile.   

 

I need to research these F1s more I guess   

NLMB + FLMB is an intergrade not a hybrid and can spawn together resulting in F1 initially. F1 + FLMB or NLMB or another F1  results continues to change the original vigor of the intergrade bass. This mixing has been ongoing in California since 1959 without introducing any pure FLMB since. For this reason the vigor of our FLMB intergrade is weaker and growth has slowed.

Tom

 

[soflabasser]

Here is a list of black bass species that can be found in Georgia. Alabama spotted bass are non native and are considered invasive in Georgia since they hybridize with native black bass species;

 

1. Florida largemouth bass and intergrades (occur naturally in Northern Florida and Georgia). Florida largemouth bass are most common in Peninsular Florida where they are native.

2. Northern largemouth bass

3. Redeye bass

4. Altamaha bass (Altamaha Bass can only be found in Georgia)

5. Bartram's bass

6. Chattahoochee bass

7. Tallapoosa bass

8. Shoal bass

9. Suwannee bass

10. Smallmouth bass

11. Spotted bass

12. Alabama spotted bass

 

Alabama has 2 black bass species that can only be found in Alabama;

 

13. Cahaba bass

14. Warrior bass

 

Florida and Alabama have Choctaw bass;

 

15. Choctaw bass

 

Texas has Guadalupe bass;

 

16. Guadalupe bass

 

Mexico has Cuatrociennegas bass. Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas have Neosho smallmouth bass. With time other varieties of black bass might become official species. This is what happened to ''redeye bass'' which now are split into several different black bass species.

 

I rather catch a pure Bartram's bass of any size in its native habitat than catch invasive Alabama spotted bass. I enjoy catching these little rare black bass species as much as I enjoy catching big largemouth bass. With that said, I enjoy catching all species of black bass.