So what the heck is "infinity drive?"

[newapti5]

I have been reading some information from Shimano, from TT, and from other forums. The conclusion I can draw is:  "infinity drive" is not a X-ship replacement mechanism, at least not on baitcasters. The dual pinion gear bearings, AKA X-ship, are still there, but the pinion gear is shorter. In addition, the spool shaft seems to be tapered now, so when casting, there is no contact between the shaft and pinion gear inside; but when engaged, the tapered spool shaft will be in contact with the pinion gear inside, providing extra support for the pinion gear.  

 

So in short, "infinity drive" on bc reels seems to be a multiple supported shorter pinion gear, instead of the traditional dual supported longer pinion gear, AKA X-ship.  Is that why Shimano calls it "an upgrade of traditional X-ship?"

 

 

 

[Tatulatard]

Sounds like the spool shaft fits into the pinion gear to connect the two together is a way that is more connected than just relying on a spool pin.  Should eliminate any spool chatter when reeling quickly with no load like slack line.  Daiwas are notorious for this.  I'm sure it's a better connection too for some applications but a bass reel?  Just seems like trickling down of this tech from salt reels to their bass reels because they can.  I have the spool from a old quantum early low profile I got in the 90s that has a tapered square portion on the spool the pinion gear grabs onto rather than a

spool pin.  Same concept probably.

[Deleted account]

Looks like a different way to disengage the pinion gear, I'll stick with a lever drag on a jigging reel, there is very little casting involved, mostly just holding on for dear life hoping you don't get yanked in the drink.

[bulldog1935]

ok, I looked it over. 

 

They figured out they don't need a 2nd pinion bearing, because the spool spindle is always supporting the pinion gear from the inside during cranking. 

Kind of a Doh, not profound to figure out it self-aligns better without a second pinion bearing. 

 

Floating spools like this need two support points to keep the pinion aligned. 

 

It's kinda like saying Doyo was right. 

[newapti5]

1 hour ago, Tatulatard said:

I have the spool from a old quantum early low profile I got in the 90s that has a tapered square portion on the spool the pinion gear grabs onto rather than a

spool pin.  Same concept probably

 

Yeah that's what I was trying to say: If my understanding of infinity drive is correct, it's not something new.  It may increase the manufacturing cost since it requires tighter tolerance, but it's not something new. 

 

52 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

They figured out they don't need a 2nd pinion bearing,

 

That was my initial thought, but the new 22 Bantam schematics, as well as 21 Conquest schematics, shows the two pinion bearings are still there.  So X-ship is still there, they just don't include it in their feature list anymore. 

 

 

[JustJames]

You made me wonder even though I’m not in market for Shimano anymore. 
I watched this guy compare old and new bantam, the new bantam have infinity drive. The guy compare main and pinion gear which is almost the same. The two bearings support pinion gear still there and both have bearing spool shaft (new bantam with spring). Finally the guy swapped new gear set onto old bantam and it fits and works. Go figure.

I guess ppl with new 2022 bantam can show how pinion gear seat onto spool shaft and those spool shaft bearing with spring might do the trick of fitting into pinion?

Otherwise it might just be a new name Shimano give to reels with connected spool shaft support bearing.

 

 

[newapti5]

3 minutes ago, Bass_Fishing_SoCal said:

You made me wonder even though I’m not in market for Shimano anymore. 
I watched this guy compare old and new bantam, the new bantam have infinity drive. The guy compare main and pinion gear which is almost the same. The two bearings support pinion gear still there and both have bearing spool shaft. Finally the guy swapped new gear set onto old bantam and it fits and works. Go figure.

I guess ppl with new 2022 bantam can show how pinion gear seat onto spool shaft and those spool shaft bearing with spring might do the trick of fitting into pinion?
 

 

Yeah, I am still not sure whether or not my understanding of infinity drive is correct. Maybe there's more to it Shimano didn't tell us about, or maybe it'll stay a mystery. 

[JustJames]

5 minutes ago, newapti5 said:

 

Yeah, I am still not sure whether or not my understanding of infinity drive is correct. Maybe there's more to it Shimano didn't tell us about, or maybe it'll stay a mystery. 

Same as Daiwa with dual bearing support on pinion gear which exists since original alphas 103. Now Daiwa call it hyper double support with Alphas SV TW.

[garroyo130]

Head scratcher on this one. It seems like on spinning reels the biggest difference is the addition of a plastic bushing on the pinion retaining nut to help keep alignment of the pinion but on baitcasting, who knows ...

[JustJames]

Yeah it is kind of started from new Stella FK, infinity revolution of everything ???. The only infinity I’m interested in is “Infinity loop” or the simple word “slow oscillation”. It is hard to find in bass size spinning reel these days.

[Woody B]

17 hours ago, Tatulatard said:

Should eliminate any spool chatter when reeling quickly with no load like slack line.  Daiwas are notorious for this.

 

I've only heard/felt the spool chatter on "magic" reels that leave the tension knob just tight enough to remove side play in the spool.   I noticed it on my Shimano's and Diawa's when I finally started adjusting the spool tension this way.  I "think" they're fixing a problem that really isn't a problem.   

 

 

Am I correct in what they're trying to accomplish?

[garroyo130]

3 minutes ago, Woody B said:

 

I've only heard/felt the spool chatter on "magic" reels that leave the tension knob just tight enough to remove side play in the spool.   I noticed it on my Shimano's and Diawa's when I finally started adjusting the spool tension this way.  I "think" they're fixing a problem that really isn't a problem.   

 

 

Am I correct in what they're trying to accomplish?

 

I feel like theyre just trying to save money on a bearing ...

[T2DM]

I'm the one who started that thread over at TT and from what I've learned the picture 
of the Ocea jigger infinity drive is a little misleading compared to the new Bantam since 
they're not the same. Hopefully a reliable answer comes out soon.

 

 Here's what I've noticed so far:

 

18 Bantam 

 

22 Bantam

 

 

 

Here's what I think about the X-ship IMHO.

 

The purpose of the two bearings supporting the pinion gear is to completely
isolate it so it can't make contact or create friction with the (long and skinnier) 
portion of the spool shaft when the thumb bar is engaged or during the cast. 
 
The pinion gear slides away only little bit just enough for it to detached itself from spool shaft pin, all at the same time relies on those two bearings to hold 
its position.

 

The only area of the pinion gear that makes contact with the spool is when it needs to grab the pin or during retrieve, even at this position the pinion gear is completely free from the spool shaft.

 

So yes X-ship will always require two bearings, you'll also notice that the spool shaft has no bumps and I think the only purpose of the spool shaft design on the Bantam or similar Shimano reels is to reach the tension cap.

 

[newapti5]

1 hour ago, T2DM said:

I'm the one who started that thread over at TT and from what I've learned the picture 
of the Ocea jigger infinity drive is a little misleading compared to the new Bantam since 
they're not the same. Hopefully a reliable answer comes out soon.

 

 Here's what I've noticed so far:

 

18 Bantam 

 

22 Bantam

 

 

 

Here's what I think about the X-ship IMHO.

 

The purpose of the two bearings supporting the pinion gear is to completely
isolate it so it can't make contact or create friction with the (long and skinnier) 
portion of the spool shaft when the thumb bar is engaged or during the cast. 
 
The pinion gear slides away only little bit just enough for it to detached itself from 
the main gear/spool shaft pin, all at the same time relies on those two bearings to hold 
its position.

 

The only area of the pinion gear that makes contact with the spool is when it needs to grab the pin or
during retrieve, even at this position the pinion gear is completely free from the spool shaft.

 

So yes X-ship will always require two bearings, you'll also notice that the spool shaft has no bumps and I think the only purpose of the spool shaft design on the Bantam or similar Shimano reels is to reach the tension cap.

 

 

Yes, I agree with you about the X-ship. With the infinity drive, Shimano claims that the spool shaft is supporting the pinion gear as well.  That means the spool shaft has to be in contact with the pinion gear inside while retrieving, and has to be no contact with the pinion gear inside while casting.  From there, I figured that spool shaft has to be tapered.  Don't know if that's true, but I can't think of other ways for Shimano to achieve what they claim. 

[newapti5]

Don't know if this is right, but here's my understanding of how "infinity drive" could reduce friction and increase winding power. 

 

As shown below, when under load, especially heavy load, pinion gears with traditional X-ship support may bend a little, causing heavy pressure on certain contact area, which increase the friction. 

 

 

With infinity drive, there's some extra support in the middle, which is from the spool shaft. This could reduce the curve of pinion gears, so the heavy load could be distributed more evenly. Thus, the friction will be reduced as well.  

 

[ska4fun]

21 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

ok, I looked it over. 

 

They figured out they don't need a 2nd pinion bearing, because the spool spindle is always supporting the pinion gear from the inside during cranking. 

Kind of a Doh, not profound to figure out it self-aligns better without a second pinion bearing. 

 

Floating spools like this need two support points to keep the pinion aligned. 

 

It's kinda like saying Doyo was right. 

 

It so Shimano to make a boastful name to these kind of thing.

4 hours ago, garroyo130 said:

 

I feel like theyre just trying to save money on a bearing ...

Shimano trying to save money and boast about it as innovation? Never! LOL! It's just so Shimanoish.

21 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

ok, I looked it over. 

 

They figured out they don't need a 2nd pinion bearing, because the spool spindle is always supporting the pinion gear from the inside during cranking. 

Kind of a Doh, not profound to figure out it self-aligns better without a second pinion bearing. 

 

Floating spools like this need two support points to keep the pinion aligned. 

 

It's kinda like saying Doyo was right. 

Doyo owning Shimano again? Nothing new in the front.

8 hours ago, Bass_Fishing_SoCal said:

Yeah it is kind of started from new Stella FK, infinity revolution of everything ???. The only infinity I’m interested in is “Infinity loop” or the simple word “slow oscillation”. It is hard to find in bass size spinning reel these days.

Ryobi Zauber.

[T2DM]

4 hours ago, newapti5 said:

Don't know if this is right, but here's my understanding of how "infinity drive" could reduce friction and increase winding power. 

 

As shown below, when under load, especially heavy load, pinion gears with traditional X-ship support may bend a little, causing heavy pressure on certain contact area, which increase the friction. 

 

 

With infinity drive, there's some extra support in the middle, which is from the spool shaft. This could reduce the curve of pinion gears, so the heavy load could be distributed more evenly. Thus, the friction will be reduced as well.  

 

I appreciate the illustrations but based on the new shape of the area of the shaft where the spool pin is located (I'm not sure what it is called, and I wish I knew) and from what I've read on their websites, Infinity drive in the new Bantam is a new way the pinion gear hugs the larger diameter of the spool shaft where the pin in located, the pinion when engaged with the  spool have a better or solid connection and doesn't rely on the spool side X-ship bearing for full support, that bearing is now only there to keep the pinion in place when the thumb bar is engaged.

 

This is from Shimano Japan:

 

 

"It is newly equipped with an Infinity drive, a new structure that supports the spool shaft from the inside of the pinion gear instead of the bearing on the spool side with a large rotational resistance. The rotational resistance of the gear part is greatly reduced, and high strength is achieved while realizing a lighter and more direct winding than before. It follows the 21 Calcutta Conquest as a bait casting reel and is the first low-profile Bantam to be installed. The Infiniti Drive brings even more comfort and strength to the highly rigid core solid-bodied Bantam. This exquisite combination takes Strong Versa Tiles to a new level".

[newapti5]

1 hour ago, T2DM said:

Infinity drive in the new Bantam is a new way the pinion gear hugs the larger diameter of the spool shaft where the pin in located

 

It seems that way from the photo you shared, but how is this able to reduce noticeable amount of friction and increase winding power?  That new support location is pretty much where the X-ship bearing is. 

 

Anyway, I give up. I guess I'll take Shimano's word for it. 

 

 

[T2DM]

I feel exactly the same way about all this dude, it is so confusing it's giving me a headache, I love geeking out on things but this one is becoming pretty deep. The only way that I can confirm that this feature is there/working is this, I own both the 18 and 22, I feel the difference between the two when I use them side by side. Maybe a better explanation will come out soon from others.

[jbsoonerfan]

Oh wow

[newapti5]

Found this the other day. It may shed some light on new Bantam's Infinity Drive. It's more than a new design of pinion gear and spool shaft; there're other things as well. I am not sure what "two special greased bearings" he's referring to, the two supporting the pinion gear, or the two supporting the spool. Hopefully not the latter, as I've already flushed mine.  (P.S.  turn on the CC if possible. Gee, I thought my accent was thick...)

 

 

[QED]

Per Shimano, Infinity drive means this:

"The Infinity Drive structure is a more advanced version of the conventional X-SHIP structure that created exceptionally light winding. The main shaft, which had previously been supported by the pinion gear, is now supported by a new and unique low-friction bushing that significantly decreases frictional resistance. In addition, the main shaft has undergone a proprietary surface treatment and special processing to drastically reduce rotational torque, constructing a reel that can actively wind even under heavy loads."

 

From my perspective, this is mostly marketing drivel, but the Infinity Drive reels I have are only a bit smoother than their predecessors so there's that...

[newapti5]

23 minutes ago, QED said:

Per Shimano, Infinity drive means this:

"The Infinity Drive structure is a more advanced version of the conventional X-SHIP structure that created exceptionally light winding. The main shaft, which had previously been supported by the pinion gear, is now supported by a new and unique low-friction bushing that significantly decreases frictional resistance. In addition, the main shaft has undergone a proprietary surface treatment and special processing to drastically reduce rotational torque, constructing a reel that can actively wind even under heavy loads."

 

From my perspective, this is mostly marketing drivel, but the Infinity Drive reels I have are only a bit smoother than their predecessors so there's that...

 

I saw this brief introduction as well, but I think this is to explain the Infinity Drive mechanism with spinning reels. For baitcasters, it seem to a case-by-case situation. I agree that it's not something revolutionary, but just curious how it works.