Why is the new Zillion smoother than the new Alphas?

[newapti5]

Don't get me wrong, the new Alphas SV TW 800 is a smooth reel, but the new Zillion's smoothness is on another level. Nevertheless, those "Hyper" stuff with the new Zillion, the new Alphas has them, too. So what is it?  Possible causes:

1. The Alphas's frame is magnesium, and Zillion's is aluminum. 

2. Zillion has aluminum sideplate, and Alphas doesn't.

3. Zillion's tolerance is just plain better. 

What do you guys think? 

 

[bulldog1935]

This puppy is stunning smooth.  @Tail Slap got his a few weeks ago and says the same. 

(He's buying more.)

After the lighter-weight handle swap (esp. knobs), I can't tell it from my Steez, and it cost half. 

Absolutely nothing clunky about my magnesium Steez after fishing a year and change. 

(the whole point for this reel was to keep my Steez out of salt BFS and full-time on my freshwater bass rod that was sharing it with a spool swap). 

I guess Alphas also has free-floating spool. 

This was made in Japan, where parts matching is the norm. 

The guys building these reels will pick through parts to find the best pairing that improves the smoothness as they go.  The sticker is their bench that gets pinged if the reel is returned. 

You can say the same thing about Shimano spinning reels.  Stradic is an amazing buy, but put it next to a Vanquish, and the difference is surprising.  Starting and stopping the Stradic actually feels like work next to the Vanquish. 

[newapti5]

16 minutes ago, Bass_Fishing_SoCal said:

Both reels are aluminum frame and aluminum side plate

 

I used to think so, but I am getting contradicting information from Daiwa's website: 

 

https://www.daiwa.com/scandinavia/contents/reels/21_alphas_sv_tw/index.html

"the reel features an magnesium frame for maximum rigidity and precision performance of the internal components."

 

https://daiwafishing.com.au/products/21-alphas-sv-tw

"A Hyper Armed Housing incorporating full aluminium body and gear sideplate construction."

 

I don't think Daiwa has two versions of the new Alphas. But anyway, I personally tend to think the Zillion's tolerance is just better. 

 

[GetFishorDieTryin]

Brass to AL maybe?

[Tail Slap]

Go on any other forum where the new jpn zillions are the topic and overwhelmingly you read how tight the tolerences are and how freaky smooth they are.  Fact is, Daiwa hit this one out of the park.  They got it all right just as @bulldog1935pointed out in detail.  He is correct I am picking up at least two more.  Probably 2 HDs and will buy a SV boost spool for one as I like the brass gears and larger handle but want the sv spool.

 

The Silver Wolf is amazingly tight tolerance and the brake control wheel is very tactile. Similar to how a well a top tier tactical scopes turrets are.  It's firm clicks with no play. No way even with gloves you could accidentally bump the setting.  There is no human noticeable tolerance in the handle shaft.  None.  These really do feel the time was taken to match fit parts for best tolerence.  Without it you woukd certainly find examples with tolerence stacking.

 

You can even pickup zpi or bearing from hedgehog for the worm gear.  Add two to the handle.  If you want all bearings.  That puts it at 14+1.  

 

Simply put you have to look really hard to find things not to like in terms of design build quality performance.  The 34mm spool is the cherry on top.  You can literally tune the cast on this for any possible setup.  Further you have parts compatibility between all versions. Jpn Zillion G, Zillion HD, Zillion Silver Wolf, USDM Zillion Tw.  Then finally there is the price point. Name one reel in this build quality that even comes close to the prices we are able to get these from the JPM.

[JustJames]

2 hours ago, newapti5 said:

 

I used to think so, but I am getting contradicting information from Daiwa's website: 

 

https://www.daiwa.com/scandinavia/contents/reels/21_alphas_sv_tw/index.html

"the reel features an magnesium frame for maximum rigidity and precision performance of the internal components."

 

https://daiwafishing.com.au/products/21-alphas-sv-tw

"A Hyper Armed Housing incorporating full aluminium body and gear sideplate construction."

 

I don't think Daiwa has two versions of the new Alphas. But anyway, I personally tend to think the Zillion's tolerance is just better. 

 

Yes that Daiwa Scandinavia website, if you look well on the bottom, you would see features it listed as Aluminum (hyper arm housing)
Anyway to me though, old Daiwa  Alphas SV 105 is smoother than both, my SS SV with Aluminum gear, huge magnesium frame is as smooth as Zillion SV TW and don’t have rattle sound from T-wings. 

[FishTank]

9 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

This puppy is stunning smooth.  @Tail Slap got his a few weeks ago and says the same. 

(He's buying more.)

After the lighter-weight handle swap (esp. knobs), I can't tell it from my Steez, and it cost half. 

Absolutely nothing clunky about my magnesium Steez after fishing a year and change. 

(the whole point for this reel was to keep my Steez out of salt BFS and full-time on my freshwater bass rod that was sharing it with a spool swap). 

I guess Alphas also has free-floating spool. 

This was made in Japan, where parts matching is the norm. 

The guys building these reels will pick through parts to find the best pairing that improves the smoothness as they go.  The sticker is their bench that gets pinged if the reel is returned. 

You can say the same thing about Shimano spinning reels.  Stradic is an amazing buy, but put it next to a Vanquish, and the difference is surprising.  Starting and stopping the Stradic actually feels like work next to the Vanquish. 

I got my Silver Wolf a few weeks ago and it's pretty amazing.  I had a few issues out of the box though..... it wasn't smooth,  almost grinding and geary.  I was going to send it back to Digitaka but decided to take it apart instead.  I found one bad spool bearing. The bearings were also dry. The AR bearing was soaked in grease and to top it off, there was a split ring stuck in some grease inside the frame. There were no signs that it had been used. I cleaned it, soaked the bearings and re-lubed it. It's perfect now. I just need to move on from the braid I put on it. It's been a disaster. 

 

 

[bulldog1935]

37 minutes ago, FishTank said:

... I just need to move on from the braid I put on it. It's been a disaster. 

 

 

Jun Sonada at JapanTackle is the smartest baitcaster guy I know of.  He recommends only hard-coating braid on baitcaster to limit line dig.  He's right on many of the X-braids.  The softer FEP* coatings work better on spinning tackle, while the harder coatings cast better on baitcaster.  One line he recommends specifically is Yamatoyo Resin Sheller, but I don't like that coating anywhere near Duel X-wire - I've had the Yamatoyo coating peel - otherwise, great cost-effective line.  For my new reel, I'm trying the new-in-'22 Varivas, in PE#0.6 - I'll keep you posted. 

 

* keep it here to not totally derail the thread @FishTank the coatings are a thermoplastic derivative of teflon, so they're slicker than baby scat.  Depending on the exact fomulation, they can be hard or soft - YGK Bornrush is about the softest and excels on spinning distance. 

[FishTank]

10 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

Jun Sonada at JapanTackle is the smartest baitcaster guy I know of.  He recommends only hard-coating braid on baitcaster to limit line dig.  He's right on many of the X-braids.  The softer FEP coatings work better on spinning tackle, while the harder coatings cast better on baitcaster.  One line he recommends specifically is Yamatoyo Resin Sheller, but I don't like that coating anywhere near Duel X-wire - I've had the Yamatoyo coating peel - otherwise, great cost-effective line.  For my new reel, I'm trying the new-in-'22 Varivas, in PE#0.6 - I'll keep you posted. 

I've been using Varivas Super Trout Advance PE 0.8.  It's fantastic line if I take the time to manage it after each cast but I think it's almost too slick and thin.  I thought with some use it would rough up a little but no such luck.  It has stayed true to its form and shown no signs of wear. 

[AmmoGuy]

I'm repeating myself a little, but since it's being discussed.....

 

I have 2 HD's and a USDM now. 

I'm pretty happy with USDM. It retrieves really smoothly, and it casts relatively smoothly. It's a very nice reel. 

 

However, one of my HD's doesn't retrieve all that smoothly. I don't think it's as bad as @FishTank's Wolf was, but I also don't have any extra parts floating around inside, lol. It just produces a little gear noise that I wasn't expecting from a Zillion. To be clear, I'm not talking Tatula type gear noise. I'm talking about the type of gear noise that a picky reel nerd notices.

My other HD retrieves noticeably smoother. 

 

Neither of my HD's cast very smoothly. I've tried cleaning and re-lubing the bearings, but they still buzz and vibrate during a cast. It makes them feel kind of cheesy. Others have reported smooth casting HD's, so I have to assume I got a couple that were assembled with a less than stellar batch of bearings? I'm probably going to spend the $ and put new bearings in two brand new $300 reels, because on a FFS reel, there's not much else that would cause this noise. 

 

I say all that to say, that I wouldn't read too much into a small sample size comparison. If you're being picky, even "nice" Daiwas of the same make and model can vary some in smoothness.  

[king fisher]

9 hours ago, Tail Slap said:

Go on any other forum where the new jpn zillions are the topic and overwhelmingly you read how tight the tolerences are and how freaky smooth they are.  Fact is, Daiwa hit this one out of the park.  They got it all right just as @bulldog1935pointed out in detail.  He is correct I am picking up at least two more.  Probably 2 HDs and will buy a SV boost spool for one as I like the brass gears and larger handle but want the sv spool.

 

The Silver Wolf is amazingly tight tolerance and the brake control wheel is very tactile. Similar to how a well a top tier tactical scopes turrets are.  It's firm clicks with no play. No way even with gloves you could accidentally bump the setting.  There is no human noticeable tolerance in the handle shaft.  None.  These really do feel the time was taken to match fit parts for best tolerence.  Without it you woukd certainly find examples with tolerence stacking.

 

You can even pickup zpi or bearing from hedgehog for the worm gear.  Add two to the handle.  If you want all bearings.  That puts it at 14+1.  

 

Simply put you have to look really hard to find things not to like in terms of design build quality performance.  The 34mm spool is the cherry on top.  You can literally tune the cast on this for any possible setup.  Further you have parts compatibility between all versions. Jpn Zillion G, Zillion HD, Zillion Silver Wolf, USDM Zillion Tw.  Then finally there is the price point. Name one reel in this build quality that even comes close to the prices we are able to get these from the JPM.

Are you the Bait Monkey, or is he just sitting on your lap while you type?  He will definitely be climbing all over my back by the end of the day.

[Tatulatard]

9 hours ago, Tail Slap said:

No way even with gloves you could accidentally bump the setting.

Actually bumping the dial is a somewhat common complaint but it only seems to be with left hand reel users casting while holding onto the reel instead if the rod.  For right hand reelers this is a non issue.

[newapti5]

8 hours ago, Bass_Fishing_SoCal said:

Yes that Daiwa Scandinavia website, if you look well on the bottom, you would see features it listed as Aluminum (hyper arm housing)
Anyway to me though, old Daiwa  Alphas SV 105 is smoother than both, my SS SV with Aluminum gear, huge magnesium frame is as smooth as Zillion SV TW and don’t have rattle sound from T-wings. 

 

Yes, my Alphas SV aka SV105 is crazy smooth, before they invented those Hyper label, that's why I think tolerance and craftsmanship play a pivotal part in Zillion's smoothness.

[AmmoGuy]

2 hours ago, FishTank said:

I got my Silver Wolf a few weeks ago and it's pretty amazing.  I had a few issues out of the box though..... it wasn't smooth,  almost grinding and geary.  I was going to send it back to Digitaka but decided to take it apart instead.  I found one bad spool bearing. The bearings were also dry. The AR bearing was soaked in grease and to top it off, there was a split ring stuck in some grease inside the frame. There were no signs that it had been used. I cleaned it, soaked the bearings and re-lubed it. It's perfect now. I just need to move on from the braid I put on it. It's been a disaster. 

 

 

 

SMALL detail, but does the Wolf have the little retaining o-ring on the spool shaft like the 1000G?

[FishTank]

Yes. I believe so. It wasn't something I looked at when I took it apart. I will look for sure when I get a chance but here is a blow up of the schematic. 

 

32 minutes ago, AmmoGuy said:

 

SMALL detail, but does the Wolf have the little retaining o-ring on the spool shaft like the 1000G?

 

[Tatulatard]

32 minutes ago, newapti5 said:

 

Yes, my Alphas SV aka SV105 is crazy smooth, before they invented those Hyper label, that's why I think tolerance and craftsmanship play a pivotal part in Zillion's smoothness.

Those 7.2:1 bass alphas gears are just butter.  Mandatory upgrade to all alphas and pixy reels.  

[AmmoGuy]

13 minutes ago, FishTank said:

Yes. I believe so. It wasn't something I looked at when I took it apart. I will look for sure when I get a chance but here is a blow up of the schematic. 

 

 

 

It would be #23 on this 1000G schematic. Doesn't look like the Wolf has it. 

Interesting. The HD doesn't have it either. 

[JustJames]

1 hour ago, newapti5 said:

 

Yes, my Alphas SV aka SV105 is crazy smooth, before they invented those Hyper label, that's why I think tolerance and craftsmanship play a pivotal part in Zillion's smoothness.

Yes you may set Zillion platform as higher class, better tolerance (but not craftsmanship) than Alphas since the price set always higher. To me, I separated both platform as power house (zillion) and Finesse (Alphas). The way I fish I always prefer small finesse reel. 

I have own many Daiwa and use them along side Shimano, until these two Zillion and especially Alphas made me decide to abandon Shimano all at once. I’m not sure how other compare smoothness in the reels, but to me these two reels when retrieve I feel like nothing on the line and that what I call smoothness.

[newapti5]

5 hours ago, FishTank said:

Yes. I believe so. It wasn't something I looked at when I took it apart. I will look for sure when I get a chance but here is a blow up of the schematic. 

 

 

 

I think it has similar purpose as Shimano's "Silent Tune," no? I like small details like this, as well as that little piece of "grease blocker" on top of the spool bearing. I wish all my reels have that.

[AmmoGuy]

1 hour ago, newapti5 said:

 

I think it has similar purpose as Shimano's "Silent Tune," no? I like small details like this, as well as that little piece of "grease blocker" on top of the spool bearing. I wish all my reels have that.

 

It's parallels "silent tune", but it's not actively putting pressure on the bearings like "silent tune" is supposed to. I have to believe the o-ring is an attempt to damp vibrations in the spool during a cast though (same purpose as silent tune).  

 

I will say that my 1000G is quieter casting than my HD's. So who knows?

 

I like details too. If it is actually effective, it's a shame that the HD's and Silver Wolfs don't incorporate it. 

 

Another small detail.... The HD's do not use a spring washer behind the knobs like the G does. I think the spring washer makes the handle/knob assembly feel "nicer". 

[newapti5]

1 hour ago, AmmoGuy said:

 

It's parallels "silent tune", but it's not actively putting pressure on the bearings like "silent tune" is supposed to. I have to believe the o-ring is an attempt to damp vibrations in the spool during a cast though (same purpose as silent tune).  

 

I will say that my 1000G is quieter casting than my HD's. So who knows?

 

I like details too. If it is actually effective, it's a shame that the HD's and Silver Wolfs don't incorporate it. 

 

Another small detail.... The HD's do not use a spring washer behind the knobs like the G does. I think the spring washer makes the handle/knob assembly feel "nicer". 

 

Ah yes, that little but smart detail. It makes my work much easier. I used to have to try several times to find washers with the right thickness.

[Tatulatard]

10 hours ago, AmmoGuy said:

I'm repeating myself a little, but since it's being discussed.....

 

I have 2 HD's and a USDM now. 

I'm pretty happy with USDM. It retrieves really smoothly, and it casts relatively smoothly. It's a very nice reel. 

 

However, one of my HD's doesn't retrieve all that smoothly. I don't think it's as bad as @FishTank's Wolf was, but I also don't have any extra parts floating around inside, lol. It just produces a little gear noise that I wasn't expecting from a Zillion. To be clear, I'm not talking Tatula type gear noise. I'm talking about the type of gear noise that a picky reel nerd notices.

My other HD retrieves noticeably smoother. 

 

Neither of my HD's cast very smoothly. I've tried cleaning and re-lubing the bearings, but they still buzz and vibrate during a cast. It makes them feel kind of cheesy. Others have reported smooth casting HD's, so I have to assume I got a couple that were assembled with a less than stellar batch of bearings? I'm probably going to spend the $ and put new bearings in two brand new $300 reels, because on a FFS reel, there's not much else that would cause this noise. 

 

I say all that to say, that I wouldn't read too much into a small sample size comparison. If you're being picky, even "nice" Daiwas of the same make and model can vary some in smoothness.  

Keep this up and you'll end up chasing after old megabass reels in your pursuit of the darkside.

 

[AmmoGuy]

1 hour ago, Tatulatard said:

Keep this up and you'll end up chasing after old megabass reels in your pursuit of the darkside.

 

 

[FishTank]

10 hours ago, AmmoGuy said:

 

It would be #23 on this 1000G schematic. Doesn't look like the Wolf has it. 

Interesting. The HD doesn't have it either. 

Here are the two spools. The Zillion looks like it has a plastic ring and the Silver Wolf a metal one.

 

 

[AmmoGuy]

53 minutes ago, FishTank said:

Here are the two spools. The Zillion looks like it has a plastic ring and the Silver Wolf a metal one.

 

 

This little o-ring is what you’d be looking for.  Looks like it may be there on the second picture?