Rod Quality. What is the Separator?

[gunsinger]

I’m not looking to rekindle any old debates about why a $200 rod is better than a $100 rod, but I would like to understand the key differentiators.  Putting aside use case, what makes one medium/heavy/fast better (or worse) that the next. For example, I recently had to replace the rod tip on two rods; one a baitcaster and the other a spinning reel.  Both were relatively inexpensive rods (well under $100). Both had damage to the ceramic inserts (likely from attempts to poke and prod to dislodge hung baits).  Are the inserts better quality or more durable on a more expensive rod?  Are the blanks better?  Do they cast farther or smoother?  What about the guides?  
 

Speaking of guides, “Are micro guides better?”

 

TIA

JR

[bulldog1935]

Finish can be a big factor, but you should really be looking at the blank itself. 

Higher grade blanks use less resin and more carbon, normally have both linear graphite fibers, and layers of helical wrapped cloth.  "Nano resin" is the buzzword for graphite cloth with the impregnated resin that gives you the lightest-rod for equivalent power. 

 

Microguides work and help keep the weight down, but work best with braid.  That said, my best braid rods have "middle-size" titanium-frame guides that handle both mono and braid, including leader knots,  better than microguides handle mono or leader knots. 

[casts_by_fly]

Blanks, guides, and to a lesser extent seats/grips determine price. And marketing/warranty.  The blank is the backbone of a rod build and where you should really pay for quality.  It’s hard to read through marketing bs at times, but you have to put the picture together between the manufacturers claims, other peoples reviews, etc. Always start from the best blank you can. 
 

guides can range in price, but you’re mostly paying for lighter weight. A basic ceramic guide and a silicon carbide guide will both be just fine for bass fishing and neither will have a difference in performance. A titanium frame with a thinner ceramic ring will perform better than a big clunky ceramic ring in a stainless frame. It’s about weight at that point.

 

Great cork is more expensive than cheap cork or foam. Few are using great cork though so pick based on preference.

 

the rest of cost is warranty, marketing, and quality control. A rod with ugly wraps and poor finish will fish just fine, but I don’t like to look at it.  

[Tennessee Boy]

On their website gloomas says that their $600 NRX uses proprietary technology that allows them to make a rod that is 15% lighter with the same strength.   It doesn’t say what they are comparing it to.   So for $600 you can replace a 4 ounce rod with one thats 3.4 ounces.  That’s a 0.6 ounce weight savings.   Some people on the forum have said it helps reduce wrist and elbow fatigue.  Personally, I’ve never had a problem fishing all day with a 4 oz rod.  It’s nice to know that if 4 ounces gets to be too much for me, I can loose 0.6 ounces for only $600.  I’ll probably take off my 3.5 ounce watch and my 0.25 ounce wedding band before I go with the lighter rod though.

[T-Billy]

1 minute ago, Tennessee Boy said:

On their website gloomas says that their $600 NRX uses proprietary technology that allows them to make a rod that is 15% lighter with the same strength.   It doesn’t say what they are comparing it to.   So for $600 you can replace a 4 ounce rod with one thats 3.4 ounces.  That’s a 0.6 ounce weight savings.   Some people on the forum have said it helps reduce wrist and elbow fatigue.  Personally, I’ve never had a problem fishing all day with a 4 oz rod but it’s nice to know that if 4 ounces get to be too much for me, I can loose 0.6 ounces for only $600.  I’ll probably take off my 3.5 ounce watch and my 0.25 ounce wedding band before I go with the lighter rod though.

There's definitely a point of diminishing returns for our hard earned dollar.

[bulldog1935]

but, if that 15% is all in the upper half of the rod - e.g., a smaller diameter - and it still gives the same fast rod taper, it makes for a tremendous difference in the feel of the rod weight. 

 

[Tennessee Boy]

It's been a while since I picked up an NRX and I'm sure they've made improvements.  Next time I see one in a store I'll pick it up and if I feel a "tremendous" difference in weight,  I'll buy it.

 

I've always found it interesting that the companies that brag the most about how amazingly light their rods are never publish the actual weights of the rods on their web sites.

[ironbjorn]

1 hour ago, Tennessee Boy said:

On their website gloomas says that their $600 NRX uses proprietary technology that allows them to make a rod that is 15% lighter with the same strength.   It doesn’t say what they are comparing it to.   So for $600 you can replace a 4 ounce rod with one thats 3.4 ounces.  That’s a 0.6 ounce weight savings.   Some people on the forum have said it helps reduce wrist and elbow fatigue.  Personally, I’ve never had a problem fishing all day with a 4 oz rod.  It’s nice to know that if 4 ounces gets to be too much for me, I can loose 0.6 ounces for only $600.  I’ll probably take off my 3.5 ounce watch and my 0.25 ounce wedding band before I go with the lighter rod though.

Hardly ever see any professional with a fleet of these essentially collector's items rods. On the internet discussions though you'll see it everywhere. Guys get worn out by what amounts to a sip of water so they need to spend thousands to rid themselves of this truly heavy burden. You'll also see a whole lot of "how to not lose lures" stuff. The guys who want to catch bass know you're going to beat your gear up $10-$20k in rods isn't easy to replace, and they also know you're going to lose lures if you're fishing where bass live. Bass culture is going insane. You need $1000 outfits and you need to stare at a screen to catch fish. It's ridiculous. It's mindless.

 

[Tennessee Boy]

Let me make another important point about expensive gear.   There are people that like it because it's the best.  It doesn't matter if it provides any true practical advantages.   They are connoisseurs of fishing tackle who want to use the very best.  That's how they enjoy the sport and that's all that matters.   I carry three nice scales on my boat to weigh my fish.  They are more accurate than the cheap scales you carry but not by very much.  I like to weight my fish accurately and I think accurate scales are cool.  I can't make a practical argument for why I need $250 worth of scales on my boat.  I'm a geek that likes to measure things.  We all enjoy the sport differently and we all spend our money differently.  

 

So maybe the best answer I could give for the OPs question is this.  There is very little appreciable difference between the most expensive rods and middle of the road rods, but you might enjoy the high end rods anyway.

[dodgeguy]

There is a wide variation in quality in the 200$ and under rod catagory. You can buy a boat patriot with a ten year warranty and titanium sic guides or a st Croix with cheap aluminum oxide guides. you can buy a Dobyns with alconite guides and a lifetime warranty. Bps also makes the jm signature series with alconite guides. It's a great rod for 159.99 with a ten year warranty. There are plenty of decent rods at this price point that you don't have to settle for cheap guides. Dobyns are some of the best balanced rods out there.The Classic was won on BPS Carbonlite rods and reels. They are 200$ for a combo.

[Columbia Craw]

Materials, components, design, package and quality control. That’s it.

[QED]

2 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

It's been a while since I picked up an NRX and I'm sure they've made improvements.  Next time I see one in a store I'll pick it up and if I feel a "tremendous" difference in weight,  I'll buy it.

 

I've always found it interesting that the companies that brag the most about how amazingly light their rods are never publish the actual weights of the rods on their web sites.

 

JDM sites are better about stating rod weight, though with a little bit of research one can find weight info on most US market high end rods.

 

Regarding what constitutes a "tremendous" difference in weight, I consider a 1/2 oz or so easily noticeable and 1 oz tremendously noticeable.  For example, I have a St Croix Legend Xtreme (which is a great rod) that, at about 4.6 oz, is over an oz heavier than my comparable Phenix K2 and Shimano PA rods.  I have a JDM Poison Glorious on the way which is just under 3 oz so that's where I vote with my dollars.  BTW, all of the above have fine blanks and components, so that is a given.

[bulldog1935]

All the recurring references to The Professionals on BR never take into account the professionals don't buy their tackle, but it's provided by their sponsors (in crates).

They use what they're paid to sell.  All the people who mimic their tackle bought it hook, line and sinker. 

The exhaustion factor is more horse hockey.  What you gain with a fast light-feeling rod is more feel through the rod.  By definition, mass = damping - the lower the mass, the more you feel. 

 

You also don't have to pay a fortune to get a Toray graphite rod. 

This $130 rod happens to be the least expensive rod I fish (I don't fish dozens of rods - at least not at the same time).  But I will always have one of these, because I literally feel every blade of grass through this ML rod. 

 

@gunslinger Thanks for your intelligent question in a reservoir of extrapolating and polarizing answers.  I also recognized you never asked about $900 rods. 

[Catt]

Rod Quality. What is the Separator?

 

[Chris Catignani]

6 hours ago, gunsinger said:

 Are the inserts better quality or more durable on a more expensive rod?

Typically no ...in most cases it a little better quality rod blank.

[Woody B]

A $100 rod is too expensive.

[Catt]

Rod Quality. What is the Separator?

 

I am! ?

 

Someone mentioned a saving 0.6 oz for $600. Kistler Helium is that light for $250 less.  And yes I've thrown em both & will take the Kistler hands down.

 

Someone else mentioned reel seats being a less important component. After the blank the reel seat is #2 in my book. I want that reel completely locked down & no rod does it better than my $150 Diawia Tatula.

 

[Bankbeater]

The only issues I have had with the micro guides on my spinning rod is that I have to keep picking the vegetation and algae out of them.

[Tail Slap]

6 minutes ago, Bankbeater said:

The only issues I have had with the micro guides on my spinning rod is that I have to keep picking the vegetation and algae out of them.

Agreed. 

 

It's a bit more of a pain as it catches far more.  I like the med micros on my ALX rods as a good balance.

[Tennessee Boy]

Yes it usually comes down to rod sensitivity.   Believing that a rod helps you detect bites will probably help your confidence.   I used to be a firm believer.   A series of blind test and an understanding of physics made me realize otherwise.   Rod sensitivity has been debated at length on this forum.  I don’t think many people have changed their mind.

[MontclairDave]

14 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

I’ll probably take off my 3.5 ounce watch and my 0.25 ounce wedding band before I go with the lighter rod though.

Brilliant! It’s like road bikes, for those who share that other Shimano obsession: you know that dropping 5 lbs of weight off your gut (or wherever) is a hell of a lot cheaper than spending an extra $5k on a high-end carbon frame. And that heavy dive watch doubles as a great punching weight ?

[Chris Catignani]

1 hour ago, Tennessee Boy said:

Yes it usually comes down to rod sensitivity.   ...  Rod sensitivity has been debated at length on this forum.  I don’t think many people have changed their mind.

What puzzles me the most is that some manufactures will use the most ludicrous material for a handle. The handle is the last key component to transmit a vibration to the hand. An old school aluminum reel seat is better than some (not all) of the stuff I see today.

[MickD]

It all depends on your definition of "quality."  Is it sensitivity (ability to feel subtle strikes)?   Is it ability to take abuse in the back of a pickup truck?  Is it appearance?  Is it lightest weight?  Is it casting distance?  Is it portability?  Is it balance?  Is it long term wear durability, not considering abuse?  Is it specific technique ability?  Is it versatility?  Is it the brand name and reputation?  Is it cork vs EVA vs carbon fiber grips?  

 

We all likely have our combination of attributes that defines quality.

 

Two things are important to this discussion, IMO.  First, you usually get more "quality" the more you pay, although as mentioned before, there comes a point where the added buck doesn't have the same level of improvement as  the previous buck spent.  Second, the  more you can quantify (objectively) the performance attributes of a rod you like the more  likely you will be able to duplicate it in the future.  Learn to do your own CCS, have an accurate scale, learn to measure the TNF (True Natural Frequency).  Keep records of all these data for future use.  

 

Micro guides have the problem of little clearance for knots.  In their favor many argue they cast farther.  Since they are lighter out where it counts, their use vs larger (heavier) guides will speed up the recovery speed of the rod, which should translate into better sensitivity and longer casts, although the line one uses may have a bigger effect on both.  Of course the overall weight of the rod will be less with any lighter components.  

[MAN]

The blanks on the cheaper rods are produced very fast and with very little QC/attention given. Also the cheaper rods utilize local guides and components (generic). And just like the blanks there is very little QC in those as well. I built a series of rods one time that had indestructible solid carbon blanks, and used local guides equivalent to Fuji to help offset the blank cost. Well of course the aluminum oxide inserts could not handle the loads that fisherman were putting on them because cheaper manufacturing process and would dislodge. Causing a whole series of rods to suffer. There were many lessons learned there.      

[bulldog1935]

actually, bikes and rods aren't the same at all (except maybe the N+1 marketing). 

A good distance bike for grownups is comfortable, reliable, and practical. 

MOST cyclists don't need racer's edge, only Racers do. 

Not too many people are going to rebuild their 1975 rod four times, but with a bicycle, you may get a better result than buying new. 

 

Fishermen, on the other hand, can better take advantage of subtle improvements in rod technology.