It's fricking HOT!

[gim]

4 hours ago, Darth-Baiter said:

having said that, I am going to explore having AC installed.

 

I'm young enough where every house or apartment I've lived in always had air conditioning.  Nowadays, its just expected.  I think you would have a very hard time selling a house without air conditioning.  I just bought a house a month ago and I know for a fact that I would not even consider buying a house without it.

 

Air conditioning is primarily an American thing though.  If you go to other countries, even modernized ones, most of the homes do not have air conditioning.

 

I'm considering an upgrade to a high efficiency Carrier unit in the fall because my current unit is about 15 years old and on its last leg.

[throttleplate]

Living many years in las vegas in the dry heat the houses i rented had swamp coolers which worked great. Except they didnt when the monsoon season came and brought humidity and then the swamp cooler is useless.

[TnRiver46]

Up on a roof now. Really hot 

[roadwarrior]

100* here and it's not "dry heat".

[Koz]

[volzfan59]

2 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

I split some firewood on lunch break down at the lake house, gotta sweat while I’m still able. 
 

@volzfan59, late September is typically the hottest time of year in Knoxville, I’m sure you’ve sat inside neyland for a game or two vs the gators 

Lord yes I have! 

[jbsoonerfan]

Whew, gonna be a hot one in Lawton tonight.

[steve carpenter]

106 degrees here in central Texas the next 3 days and no rain. 

[Bird]

We're not having a shortage of rain but the humidity feels like Georgia here, wow.

[soflabasser]

I knew this Summer was going to be hotter than usual since this past Winter was colder than usual. Make sure to stay properly hydrated, eat nutritious meals, and fish in low light hours. Try not to fish during the middle of the day, since the UV index is highest during this time.

[LrgmouthShad]

51 minutes ago, soflabasser said:

Try not to fish during the middle of the day, since the UV index is highest during this time.

Sunscreen + gallon jug of water, ain’t been burned or dehydrated yet 

[gim]

2 hours ago, soflabasser said:

I knew this Summer was going to be hotter than usual

That’s what we had last summer. It was literally the hottest summer on record here and was the worst drought since 1988. We could use some rain here again, but our drought situation has improved tenfold from last year.

[12poundbass]

Bad year to start a lawn from scratch. The electric company loves me though because our well runs so much. 

[TnRiver46]

3 hours ago, LrgmouthShad said:

Sunscreen + gallon jug of water, ain’t been burned or dehydrated yet 

That’s what the outdoor clothing industry doesn’t want getting out……….. it’s really not that complicated 

[slonezp]

On 6/22/2022 at 1:16 PM, gimruis said:

 

I'm young enough where every house or apartment I've lived in always had air conditioning.  Nowadays, its just expected.  I think you would have a very hard time selling a house without air conditioning.  I just bought a house a month ago and I know for a fact that I would not even consider buying a house without it.

 

Air conditioning is primarily an American thing though.  If you go to other countries, even modernized ones, most of the homes do not have air conditioning.

 

I'm considering an upgrade to a high efficiency Carrier unit in the fall because my current unit is about 15 years old and on its last leg.

The EPA standards have changed and beginning Jan 1st, the minimum SEER and EER ratings have been raised. If you can gut a unit now, get it. Prices will increase once the new regs get into place. Manufacturer's have ceased production of 13 and 14 SEER units because they don't want to get stuck with them

On 6/18/2022 at 7:55 PM, slonezp said:

Bring it on. Temperature extremes put money in my pocket. I'm on commission. I met my guarantee earlier this week. It's all gravy money for the next 2 weeks.

May of this year was my busiest month since I took over the store 2 years ago. June sales beat May by $75K. If the first week of July is indicitive of the rest of the month, I'll beat June's sales by $50K Show me the money!!!

[soflabasser]

4 hours ago, LrgmouthShad said:

Sunscreen + gallon jug of water, ain’t been burned or dehydrated yet 

Suncreen is not enough, you need to wear clothes that protects you from the sun, especially if you have light skin. I have fished in +90 degree weather with +80% humidity more times than most people have fished in their entire lives, and caught nice fish during these times, but it is not worth it in the long run. With that said you are free to fish in the middle of the day during the Summer if you like, just make sure to protect your skin from the sun.

3 hours ago, gimruis said:

That’s what we had last summer. It was literally the hottest summer on record here and was the worst drought since 1988. We could use some rain here again, but our drought situation has improved tenfold from last year.

I remember you mentioning this last year. I hope it rains soon where you live so the drought goes away.

[12poundbass]

7 hours ago, slonezp said:

The EPA standards have changed and beginning Jan 1st, the minimum SEER and EER ratings have been raised. If you can gut a unit now, get it. Prices will increase once the new regs get into place. Manufacturer's have ceased production of 13 and 14 SEER units because they don't want to get stuck with them

It’s going to 16 SEER correct and changing refrigerant? 
 

In a nutshell how does increasing the SEER make them more efficient? I get the efficiency on the heat side, but I never dabbled in the cooling side. 
 

Does it just creat colder air, thus cooling quicker which uses less electricity? 

[roadwarrior]

Hear Index 113-115 here today and it's already HOT!

 

 

 

                                           

[bowhunter63]

109 in here at work. Plus they reinstated the mask mandate  Gonna be a long july 

[slonezp]

4 hours ago, 12poundbass said:

It’s going to 16 SEER correct and changing refrigerant? 
 

In a nutshell how does increasing the SEER make them more efficient? I get the efficiency on the heat side, but I never dabbled in the cooling side. 
 

Does it just creat colder air, thus cooling quicker which uses less electricity? 

A/C units in the north will have a minimum 14 SEER requirement, units in the south will have a 15 SEER requirement, and heat pumps a 16 SEER requirement. 

 

As far as changing refrigerant, Puron also known as R410A will begin its phase out in 2023. The issue with the proposed low GWP refrigerants that are being tossed around is flamability levels. They are currently using flamable refrigerants in applications that require less than 12oz as the total charge. R32 is being used in window shakers and R290(propane) and R600(butane) are being used in small commercial refrigeration units. Your A/C unit in your backyard might hold between 5-10lbs of refrigerant. Were you to use something like R290, you've basically got a potential bomb in your back yard.  A wire shorts out on a copper or aluminum line...KABOOM!

 

Municipalities are working on changing building codes to accomodate flamable refrigerants

 

In 2019, congress drew up the AIM act. It was voted down. Is was rammed thru in a covid bill in Dec. 2020 and on Jan. 1st 2021, refrigerant prices quadrupled. CFC's are no longer available (think R12 which was phased out in 1995). HCFC's (think R22 which is still probably in half the A/C units around the country) costs have skyrocketed. When I started in the industry, the wholesale price for R22 was $30 for a 30lb jug. The same jug currently sells wholesale for anywhere from $1400-2000 depending on your location. HFC's (think R410A) begin the equipment phase out in 2023 and will probably be final in 15 years or so.

 

It is proposed in 2029 that 80+ efficiency gas furnaces will no longer be available and all furnaces manufactured will be 90+ efficiency.

 

As far as equipment efficiency, it has nothing to do with the air temperature. First, let me clarify, SEER and EER ratings are based on design conditions in a controlled environment. They mean little in the real world. It's just something the manufacturers have to to to appease the government regulations. What makes the units more "efficient" is that they use less energy. EC motors and inverter motors are being used in place of standard motors. An EC motor uses a module taht converts single phase power into 3 phase power. 3 phase motors consume less electricity. Inverter motors, which are being used in a lot of minisplit heat pumps as well as your fancy appliances are DC motors. There is a power inverter in the control board that converts your ac to dc power like your phone charger does. They are also using 2 stage compressors which is basically giving you a low and high output. Meaning, if you run the a/c when it's 80* outside you might only need 70% of the cooling capability and if it's 100* outside you would need 100% cooling capability. If you can run the compressor at 70% capacity 80% of the days it is used, that's where the energy saving comes into play. As far as the end user, any enegry savings will be negated the first time you have to replace one of these motors as they currently cost 3-4 times what standard efficiency motors run.

 

None of the above applies to commercial or industrial a/c, refrigeration, or gas appliances.

 

The easiest way to save energy with your a/c and furnace is to keep them clean. Wash the outdoor coil one a year. If you don't know how or don't want to, have a service company come out and do it. Change your air filters regularly, and take a peek at the indoor blower motor once a year. If you're mechanically inclined, slide the blower out and brush/vacuum the blower wheel and motor faces. 

 

[12poundbass]

2 hours ago, slonezp said:

A/C units in the north will have a minimum 14 SEER requirement, units in the south will have a 15 SEER requirement, and heat pumps a 16 SEER requirement. 

 

As far as changing refrigerant, Puron also known as R410A will begin its phase out in 2023. The issue with the proposed low GWP refrigerants that are being tossed around is flamability levels. They are currently using flamable refrigerants in applications that require less than 12oz as the total charge. R32 is being used in window shakers and R290(propane) and R600(butane) are being used in small commercial refrigeration units. Your A/C unit in your backyard might hold between 5-10lbs of refrigerant. Were you to use something like R290, you've basically got a potential bomb in your back yard.  A wire shorts out on a copper or aluminum line...KABOOM!

 

Municipalities are working on changing building codes to accomodate flamable refrigerants

 

In 2019, congress drew up the AIM act. It was voted down. Is was rammed thru in a covid bill in Dec. 2020 and on Jan. 1st 2021, refrigerant prices quadrupled. CFC's are no longer available (think R12 which was phased out in 1995). HCFC's (think R22 which is still probably in half the A/C units around the country) costs have skyrocketed. When I started in the industry, the wholesale price for R22 was $30 for a 30lb jug. The same jug currently sells wholesale for anywhere from $1400-2000 depending on your location. HFC's (think R410A) begin the equipment phase out in 2023 and will probably be final in 15 years or so.

 

It is proposed in 2029 that 80+ efficiency gas furnaces will no longer be available and all furnaces manufactured will be 90+ efficiency.

 

As far as equipment efficiency, it has nothing to do with the air temperature. First, let me clarify, SEER and EER ratings are based on design conditions in a controlled environment. They mean little in the real world. It's just something the manufacturers have to to to appease the government regulations. What makes the units more "efficient" is that they use less energy. EC motors and inverter motors are being used in place of standard motors. An EC motor uses a module taht converts single phase power into 3 phase power. 3 phase motors consume less electricity. Inverter motors, which are being used in a lot of minisplit heat pumps as well as your fancy appliances are DC motors. There is a power inverter in the control board that converts your ac to dc power like your phone charger does. They are also using 2 stage compressors which is basically giving you a low and high output. Meaning, if you run the a/c when it's 80* outside you might only need 70% of the cooling capability and if it's 100* outside you would need 100% cooling capability. If you can run the compressor at 70% capacity 80% of the days it is used, that's where the energy saving comes into play. As far as the end user, any enegry savings will be negated the first time you have to replace one of these motors as they currently cost 3-4 times what standard efficiency motors run.

 

None of the above applies to commercial or industrial a/c, refrigeration, or gas appliances.

 

The easiest way to save energy with your a/c and furnace is to keep them clean. Wash the outdoor coil one a year. If you don't know how or don't want to, have a service company come out and do it. Change your air filters regularly, and take a peek at the indoor blower motor once a year. If you're mechanically inclined, slide the blower out and brush/vacuum the blower wheel and motor faces. 

 

Nice write up. I had read that R410a was going to be phased out. If I remember right I think 410a was introduced and R22 was phased out when I was doing HVAC around ‘05-06? 
 

I’m shocked that 80% efficient furnaces are still made and sold and there’s a market for it.  
 

Preventative maintenance on furnaces are pretty simple and is about 90% of the work I did back in the day. 

[gim]

3 hours ago, slonezp said:

HCFC's (think R22 which is still probably in half the A/C units around the country) costs have skyrocketed.

I just moved a little over a month ago and the current AC unit here is very old and runs off R22 refrigerant.  I had a tech come out and look at it in May and he said I would need about 5 pounds of R22 to refill it @ $1200 bucks/pound.  Well heck, I might as well just buy a new unit for that price!  He said it should last through this summer but I'm seriously considering completely replacing it this fall along with my 15 year old furnace.  They will give me about a $4000 discount if I do both at the same time and they can replace both in one day.  Apparently Carrier is the brand they prefer.

 

3 hours ago, slonezp said:

The easiest way to save energy with your a/c and furnace is to keep them clean. Wash the outdoor coil one a year. If you don't know how or don't want to, have a service company come out and do it. Change your air filters regularly, and take a peek at the indoor blower motor once a year. If you're mechanically inclined, slide the blower out and brush/vacuum the blower wheel and motor faces. 

This is absolutely true.  Debris, dust, and critters clog these units and make them run harder and less efficient.  Change the filters and keeping them clean will go a long ways.  If you have a lot of cottonseed floating around every summer, clean that crap out of your outside AC unit.

[slonezp]

27 minutes ago, 12poundbass said:

Nice write up. I had read that R410a was going to be phased out. If I remember right I think 410a was introduced and R22 was phased out when I was doing HVAC around ‘05-06? 
 

I’m shocked that 80% efficient furnaces are still made and sold and there’s a market for it.  
 

Preventative maintenance on furnaces are pretty simple and is about 90% of the work I did back in the day. 

R22 equipment was about a 15 year phase out. The refrigerant is still available and R22 replacement compressors are still available. The equipmet itself is not. R22 is no longer being produced in the US and it is no longer being imported. It continues to be the refrigerant of choice everywhere else in the world besides Europe...but I won't go there as it would break forum rules.

 

As far ar the 80% furnaces, there is still a big market for them. The installation costs are prohibitive in many instances because of having to run pvc for the intake and exhaust. Much cheaper to install an 80% unit that tear down walls to run new pipe. 

 

Another problem is installing them in uncoditioned spaces. condensate is a byproduct of the 90+ units. There have been many instances where these units are installed in attics or abve ceilings that are unconditioned. Space falls below 32* and the condensate freezes. Unit shuts off on a safety and now you have no heat. 

The condensate is also acidic. it shouldn't be dumped into the drain without being treated but the majority of the time it just gets dumped.

[slonezp]

40 minutes ago, gimruis said:

I just moved a little over a month ago and the current AC unit here is very old and runs off R22 refrigerant.  I had a tech come out and look at it in May and he said I would need about 5 pounds of R22 to refill it @ $1200 bucks/pound.  Well heck, I might as well just buy a new unit for that price!  He said it should last through this summer but I'm seriously considering completely replacing it this fall along with my 15 year old furnace.  They will give me about a $4000 discount if I do both at the same time and they can replace both in one day.  Apparently Carrier is the brand they prefer.

 

This is absolutely true.  Debris, dust, and critters clog these units and make them run harder and less efficient.  Change the filters and keeping them clean will go a long ways.  If you have a lot of cottonseed floating around every summer, clean that crap out of your outside AC unit.

$1200 to fill up 5lbs sounds more realistic than $1200 a pound. I think the going rate for residential is between $200-300 a pound. Another tactic many company's use is that R22 is illegal and the equipment has to be replaced. That is 100% false.

 

If and when you replace your unit, the installation is as important, if not more important, than the brand of equipment itself. Find a reputable contractor. Have them perform a heat load calculation to determine proper sizing of the equipment. 

 

Don't know what unit you have now but, lets say you have a 100K btu atmospheric furnace which is 50%-60% efficient. It should not be replaced with a 100K btu 80+ or 90+ unit. Basic math tell us that a 100K btu furnace that is 60% efficient, means 60K btu is heating your house and 40K is going out the flue. With an 80% furnace, you have 80K heating the house and 20K going up the flue, and with a 90% you have 90K heating the house and 10K going up the flue. 

Let's say your original furnace was sized properly. Using a 100K btu 80+ or 90+ would now have your furnace oversized. This causes short cycling and premature failure.

Let's say you've had high efficiency windows installed and higher R value insulation installed. The heat load calc will be different than single pane windows and R11 insulation. 

Same math works for the a/c unit.

 

Science tells us that heat moves to cool. During the winter, the heat inside your home wants to exit the house. During the summer, the heat from the outdoors wants to enter your house. Better windows and insulation changes that factor and needs to be figured into the load calc to make sure the unit is sized correctly. Anything different and an oversized or undersiized unit will cause you problems. On top of that, going back to SEER and EER ratings, all that goes out the window because your home is not a controlled environment and the equipment rarely works under design conditions. If your installing contractor doesn't want to run a load calc, find someone different. Don't be suprised if installing additional ductwork is recommended. When subdivisions go up, the hvac installation generally goes to the lowest bidder. They are the lowest bidder for a reason.   

 

I've been in the industry for 25 years albeit on the commercial and industrial end. I spent 15 years primarily working on commercial refrigeration. Got hurt 10 years ago and I currently manage a hvac/r supply house. I may not be smart but I'm not as dumb as @12poundbass looks     

[gim]

5 minutes ago, slonezp said:

$1200 to fill up 5lbs sounds more realistic than $1200 a pound. I think the going rate for residential is between $200-300 a pound.

Maybe that was it.  I swear he said it was 1200 bucks/pound though and I needed 4-5 pounds of it.  Either way I will do a little research on this.  I'm looking at September when it isn't so hot out anymore.