Why do I spend $$ on “nice” reels??

[AmmoGuy]

1 hour ago, WRB said:

Japanese mind set is a higher level Quality and pride of workmanship learned by dominating the auto business.

Tom

 

No arguments from me on that one. 

There is a reason the rest of the world takes so many best practices from the TPS. 

5 minutes ago, Choporoz said:

So was the machining the problem?  Or was the allowable tolerance the problem?  Hard to find fault with a process with results in 'acceptable range'

 

They didn't find fault with the process, the process found faults in the Engineering and GD&T. 

[PhishLI]

12 minutes ago, Choporoz said:

So was the machining the problem?  Or was the allowable tolerance the problem?  Hard to find fault with a process with results in 'acceptable range'

It's clear that the acceptable range was spec'd incorrectly. Maybe by bean counters. Close tolerance parts are more expensive when quoted out. Somebody stateside made the call, and they were wrong.

 

I came out of a place where the ethos was that tolerances were never used. The owner wanted everything dead nutz to print. I heard him busting chops with another owner once who proudly told him "I'm holding tenths of a thou all day long" on his new machine. My boss turned and said "I'm holding molecules all day long". They both laughed. He was very serious about sticking to the print all day every day, and his rejection rate was non existent. The problem with coming up under someone like him is that I'm deemed difficult to work with by some, or even crazy, but I'm merely competent, and they barely are. Whatever. Nobody will miss me when I'm gone, and the world will keep turning, or grinding.

[Choporoz]

Nowadays, I doubt that 'dead-on-balls-accurate' would fly as a standard for most anything outside of nuclear or space work, if there, even.  Near perfect will always be too expensive.  Gotta give me some limits

 

I guess that's part of one of the points in this thread....there's an expectation that part of the increased cost went to working within narrower margins

[Catt]

1 hour ago, PhishLI said:

While the parts were in tolerance, many were cut at the end of their allowable tolerance.

 

As long as the part was within allowable tolerance there shouldn't be an issue. If there is an issue it's because the engineering is wrong.

[PhishLI]

6 minutes ago, Catt said:

If there is an issue it's because the engineering is wrong.

Not necessarily. Revisions occur all the time.

[QED]

A glib but apropos response to the original query is because one can appreciate and afford them.  High end mass production bass spinning and casting reels now imply on the order of a $700ish price - at least that's what I had to pay.  For specialty or tuned stuff, the sky is the limit.

[dodgeguy]

1 hour ago, PhishLI said:

A little affirmation of your point. I'm going back over 30 years, so if I mush up a specific detail of this report please forgive me.

 

 The chief engineer of an R&D team I was on, who was at one time a wunderkind mechanical engineer at NASA, brought us an article to read. He loved quoting the journals. As I remember it, both Dodge and Mitsubishi were building the same transmission here and in Japan. Failure rates of the Dodge transmissions were a problem. Under inspection it was easy to see why. While the parts were in tolerance, many were cut at the end of their allowable tolerance. This condition was rampant. The lash issues accumulated to such a degree they caused failures quickly. The Mitsubishi built transmission's parts were spot on and did not use up their allowable tolerances.

 

Where did you get this ? Dodge never used a Mitsubishi transmission in the 44 years I've been a Chrysler master tech. We only used their engines in certain vehicles.We have used transmissions from Asin who builds them  for Toyota in certain Jeeps and they are awesome. We also use them in big trucks.

[PhishLI]

I'll quote myself

12 minutes ago, dodgeguy said:

I'm going back over 30 years, so if I mush up a specific detail of this report please forgive me.

It was '88. Lots of loose cars, fast women, and spinning backfists to the dome since then. I was there when the article was read. I recall the important points being made about it. The details that mattered were discussed more than once,

 

13 minutes ago, dodgeguy said:

Dodge never used a Mitsubishi transmission in the 44 years I've been a Chrysler master tech.

I didn't say that.

15 minutes ago, dodgeguy said:

As I remember it, both Dodge and Mitsubishi were building the same transmission here and in Japan.

Insert two different brands if that's better, but it was definitely an American brand and a Japanese brand producing the same trans.

[AmmoGuy]

26 minutes ago, dodgeguy said:

Where did you get this ? Dodge never used a Mitsubishi transmission in the 44 years I've been a Chrysler master tech. We only used their engines in certain vehicles.We have used transmissions from Asin who builds them  for Toyota in certain Jeeps and they are awesome. We also use them in big trucks.

 

5 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

I'll quote myself

It was '88. Lots of loose cars, fast women, and spinning backfists to the dome since then. I was there when the article was read. I recall the important points being made about it. The details that mattered were discussed more than once,

 

I didn't say that.

Insert two different brands if that's better, but it was definitely an American brand and a Japanese brand producing the same trans.

 

I'm pretty sure the D50/Ram 50 was a Mitsubishi drivetrain. If not entirely built by Mitsubishi. 

[Catt]

36 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

Not necessarily. Revisions occur all the time.

 

Revisions are issued because the original was not correct.

[QED]

7 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

Revisions are issued because the original was not correct.

 

Or it could be the usual product development cycle/learning curve following the classical s-curve where product improvements/refinements/cost-reductions get incorporated over time.

[Catt]

5 minutes ago, QED said:

 

Or it could be the usual product development cycle/learning curve following the classical s-curve where product improvements/refinements/cost-reductions get incorporated over time.

 

If the part built within tolerance & it causes issues then the "tolerance" Engineering is wrong.

[PhishLI]

3 minutes ago, Catt said:

Revisions are issued because the original was not correct.

Not necessarily. Engineers typically want things exactly how they should be. They often get overruled by corporate bean counters and forced into spec'ing things for lower cost. Lower cost is often directly tied to more open tolerances. I've witnessed this with my own eyes more than once. It often comes back to bite the bean counters and honchos. There could be a slight mid run revision that looks identical, but isn't actually, or its just saved for the Gen 2 model if there is one.

 

Most products go through multiple generations through their life cycle. Earlier stages of evolution could be viewed as flawed engineering using your approach. I don't agree if that's the case. Few things are born perfect.

[Boomstick]

More money generally means a smoother and lighter reel, and depending on which reel (usually spool) sometimes better braking.

 

Buy what you can afford and don't look back. If you use it and enjoy fishing with it, it's money well spent. I'm sure you're happy fishing with Tatulas and Curados

 

On the flipside, if you can't afford it and end up with SLX's and Fuegos, then it gets you out fishing and does the job too.

19 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

Revisions are issued because the original was not correct.

Sometimes they can find a way to make the reel for less money, or the original method was becoming too expensive. Other times they have improved newer technology and can make the reel lighter, or smaller and since the competition is doing it, they need to up their game to compete. And of course sometimes the originals do have flaws.

[Catt]

 I am a FFA Certified Manufacturing Engineer specializing in Supplier Quaility & Technical Processs and Engineer Design Orginizations in/on problem resolution(s).

 

Believe want ya want ?

[GReb]

As a bean counter, you engineers always killing our margins ?

[PhishLI]

19 minutes ago, Catt said:

I am a FFA Certified Manufacturing Engineer

Then please engineer a reel for @AmmoGuy.?

[QED]

1 minute ago, PhishLI said:

Then please engineer a reel for @AmmoGuy.?

 

Or just get a Daiwa Steez CT SV 70 XH and be done with it.  ?

[J Francho]

I was an ISO 9001 External Auditor. I recognize any of the QMS concepts brought up, but the rest is gibberish, lol. These days m an Agile coach.  Never dealt with manufacturing. Thread got interesting for sure. 

[JustJames]

After reading all these, I think I’ll stay with golfing even more. Lol

[garroyo130]

1 minute ago, J Francho said:

Thread got interesting for sure. 

 

Yeah its becoming a distance contest ... 

[AmmoGuy]

1 hour ago, Boomstick said:

More money generally means a smoother and lighter reel, and depending on which reel (usually spool) sometimes better braking.

 

Buy what you can afford and don't look back. If you use it and enjoy fishing with it, it's money well spent. I'm sure you're happy fishing with Tatulas and Curados

 

The legitimacy of the emphasized portion is precisely what this thread is questioning. 

 

When it comes to cost, Fishing is far and away the least expensive hobby I participate in. I can afford high end reels, I've just held out on whether they were truly necessary. I like finding a "gem" that offers the consistent, predictable performance I want, at a good value. I've about run out of faith that I'll find that in a reel, ha.  I'm close to filling the boat up with Black Max's and calling it good. ?

[WRB]

We can’t compare apples to oranges or aerospace to the commercial marketplace. Aerospace cost is only a factor to remain competitive within your industry. Commercial cost is everything where margins make or break your product.

I was a director of engineering for decades in the aerospace business and avoided commercial products for good reason.

Aerospace products are highly engineered at the time they start and intensely tested to meet performance goals. The development stage is where design and tolerances get proven. Precision parts need close tolerances to perform. Good engineering study tolerance stack ups, including temperature affects that can greatly impact measurements.

We are discussing fishing reels that have incorporated some aerospace materials and components like APEC bearings.

The issue is fishing reels are a commercial product without the intense inspection validation cost. Fishing reels are not intensely tested to established procedures, the users are the test facility. 

Difference in cost is the cost of materials used, not necessarily the cost of engineering and production now automated with precision CNC machines and optical measuring.

Bottom line comes down to the skill of assembly. You receive a high end reel over lubricated or with a damaged bearing or screw that is not a design or engineering problem, it’s a human error.

Good reel technicians can fix and tune reels with defective parts but not defective design.

Tom 

[PhishLI]

11 minutes ago, garroyo130 said:

Yeah its becoming a distance contest ... 

...and quite entertaining on pain killers.

[QED]

3 minutes ago, AmmoGuy said:

 

The legitimacy of the emphasized portion is the precisely what this thread is questioning.

 

As I noted earlier, just get a Daiwa Steez CT SV 70 XH and be done.  You'll definitely notice the difference.