Why do I spend $$ on “nice” reels??

[SC53]

I have experienced the same “quality “ issues as Ammo in the same model/size reels.

Both Daiwa and shimano. 

Some are smooth and quiet while others are not as. 
 

[NHBull]

2 hours ago, AmmoGuy said:

 

I think you missed the (intended) point of the discussion entirely. 

Fully agree,,, I started reading halfway through the thread….apologies 

[GReb]

I’ve definitely seen at the sub $200 level quality control is hit and miss. I’ve had multiple of the same reel that aged completely different. All received the same maintenance and yet one or two were much smoother and a couple were a meat grinder. I’ve seen it in Daiwa and Shimano including the micro module gears (which I believe to be bs). 
 

One way to get around this is to buy a bunch of reels in the off season, use them for the season, and sell at the end of it. Rinse and repeat. Depending on how you buy and sell you may not even lose money in doing so. 

[PhishLI]

29 minutes ago, AmmoGuy said:

I wonder what about their design has lent itself to the predictable performance you've experienced? 

Quantum PT reels have metal frames and double bearing supported crankshafts and pinions, and a reliable, consistent friction brake. They offer these features starting with the $100 Accurist PT. They're all good reels. Sneaky good. Some are exceptional performers. They offer these features starting with the $100 Accurist PT.

 

I have 6 PT reels. They get fished a lot. None have fallen off a cliff regarding their initial gear meshing feel, and all of them have cranked in 5+ pound fish. This is where a reel that's bound to have gear meshing "feel" issues eventually will get pushed over the edge quickly. 

 

Pick up a Vapor PT from the auction site from simmons for low$ and test the waters for yourself before buying a wally world clamshell special.

[AmmoGuy]

7 minutes ago, GReb said:

I’ve definitely seen at the sub $200 level quality control is hit and miss. I’ve had multiple of the same reel that aged completely different. All received the same maintenance and yet one or two were much smoother and a couple were a meat grinder. I’ve seen it in Daiwa and Shimano including the micro module gears (which I believe to be bs). 
 

 

This aligns with my experience. Only I'd move the number to more like sub $275. 

 

And I get it. 85-90% of customers will never care, or know the difference. That's how almost all gear centric hobbies are. 

[J Francho]

Do you think that worker shortages may be playing a part?

[AmmoGuy]

1 minute ago, PhishLI said:

PT reels have metal frames and double bearing supported crankshafts and pinions, and a reliable, consistent friction brake. They offer these features starting with the $100 Accurist PT. They're all good reels. Sneaky good. Some are exceptional performers. They offer these features starting with the $100 Accurist PT.

 

I have 6 PT reels. They get fished a lot. None have fallen off a cliff regarding their initial gear meshing feel, and all of them have cranked in 5+ pound fish. This is where a reel that's bound to have gear meshing "feel" issues eventually will get pushed over the edge quickly. 

 

Pick up a Vapor PT from the auction site from simmons for low$ and test the waters for yourself before buying a wally world clamshell special.

[Yuddzy]

5 minutes ago, GReb said:

I’ve definitely seen at the sub $200 level quality control is hit and miss. I’ve had multiple of the same reel that aged completely different. All received the same maintenance and yet one or two were much smoother and a couple were a meat grinder. I’ve seen it in Daiwa and Shimano including the micro module gears (which I believe to be bs). 
 

One way to get around this is to buy a bunch of reels in the off season, use them for the season, and sell at the end of it. Rinse and repeat. Depending on how you buy and sell you may not even lose money in doing so. 

What exactly results in some reels having more noise than others within the exact same model? Gears cut not quite right? Spacing not quite correct? I've always wondered what little thing goes askew in the manufacturing process that causes this noticeable difference in noise. 

[AmmoGuy]

7 minutes ago, Yuddzy said:

What exactly results in some reels having more noise than others within the exact same model? Gears cut not quite right? Spacing not quite correct? I've always wondered what little thing goes askew in the manufacturing process that causes this noticeable difference in noise. 

 

Now we're getting to the big brain questions. 

[WRB]

Think about skill sets. We are not all the same and vary greatly in skill sets. If you have 10 assemblers assembling reels using the same parts 1 of those assemblies is going to highly skilled and knows exactly how the reel should be put together every time. 2 or 3 of those assemblers are just going though the motions and will not recognize a defective part and simple put the parts together. The end result the skilled assembler reels are also correct, the other are hit and mis.

Skill is knowing what you are doing. For example indexing spark plugs when installing into your engine. A skilled assembler knows how to index spark plugs, most don’t.

Same engine, same spark plug very different performance.

Tom

[ska4fun]

1 hour ago, PhishLI said:

Quantum PT reels have metal frames and double bearing supported crankshafts and pinions, and a reliable, consistent friction brake. They offer these features starting with the $100 Accurist PT. They're all good reels. Sneaky good. Some are exceptional performers. They offer these features starting with the $100 Accurist PT.

 

I have 6 PT reels. They get fished a lot. None have fallen off a cliff regarding their initial gear meshing feel, and all of them have cranked in 5+ pound fish. This is where a reel that's bound to have gear meshing "feel" issues eventually will get pushed over the edge quickly. 

 

Pick up a Vapor PT from the auction site from simmons for low$ and test the waters for yourself before buying a wally world clamshell special.

 

Quantum PT reels are worth every penny. Some 10 years ago Quantum received some backlash when changed their reels OEM maker for chinese ones, until it chose Banax, wich elevated the PT series quality.

[AmmoGuy]

1 minute ago, WRB said:

Think about skill sets. We are not all the same and vary greatly in skill sets. If you have 10 assemblers assembling reels using the same parts 1 of those assemblies is going to highly skilled and knows exactly how the reel should be put together every time. 2 or 3 of those assemblers are just going though the motions and will recognize a defective part and simple put the parts together. The end result the skilled assembler reels are also correct, the other are hit and mis.

Skill is knowing what you are doing. For example indexing spark plugs when installing into your engine. A skilled assembler knows how to index spark plugs, most other don’t.

Same engine, same spark plug very different performance.

Tom

 

I do not believe the "skill" of assemblers plays a meaningful part in the variability of currently available "mid-tier" reels. Or at least in the type of variability we are discussing here. I also don't think we are discussing "defective" parts. I think we are talking about variances that are within allowable tolerances, or deficiencies in mechanical designs. 

 

If "smoothness" in the mechanical design of reel requires gears to be cut, matched, or inspected to a level of precision that is not achievable at the desired price point of the reel, then it isn't a good design.... UNLESS, "smoothness" is not a metric that has been established by the voice of the customer. Which, like I said earlier is probably the case. 85-90% of the general reel buying public doesn't care.   

The need of an assembler to "inspect" quality into a product is indictive of a poor QMS. As F. Dodge said, "You cannot inspect quality into a product". That is IE'ing 101. 

[PhishLI]

Any process where hot metal is made into a shape, like a precision casting, it's going to twist to some degree when it cools. Machining critical surfaces where multiple parts operate together solves that issue for the most part. The problem here is that a casting needs to be held in place in a fixture under pressure during the machining process. Because of the inherit incongruity of all castings, the pressure of securing it untwists the part during the machining process, but that twist is once again reflected once it's unclamped. There are clever and sometimes expensive ways to reduce this phenomenon of "springing" after machining, but it's difficult to eliminate completely, especially in budget price point gear.

 

Because of this issue, you can start with two seemingly identical frames, then two identical sets of pinions, gears, etc, that are measured by a wizard on a shadow graph, and shown to be identical regarding size, shape, and tolerances, but once assembled and used one reel remains smooth, but one doesn't due to slight misalignment issues found in the frame.

 

This is just one example of many that could cause issues where reels coming off the same line might not "feel" the same in use.

[ska4fun]

2 hours ago, WRB said:

Good topic because imo noisy reels caused by gears on the retrieve take away your focus and lure feel. 

Paying any price and receiving a reel that you feel drive train feedback vibrations is extremely annoying and good reason to be disappointed.

I am a line feeler and smooth reels are essential to my fishing experience.

I haven’t experienced smooth quite drive trains to be a price factor, weight is. Weight drives manufactures to use gear technology that uses aluminum in lieu of self lubricating brass. Aluminum will never be a smooth as brass everything being equal 

Frame materials are also sacrificed for saving weight, composites aren’t as rigid as metal but 40% lighter then aluminum. Keeping the drive train aligned using the thinnest lightest frame and side plates drives up cost with higher cost precision components. 

If budget is a driver use aluminum framed reels with brass gears. If budget isn’t a concern then light weight precision reels made by good craftsmen from a Japan should be considered.

Tom 

 

Actually Daiwa and Doyo gearing aluminum alloys are on par with brass gearing smoothness.

[AmmoGuy]

5 minutes ago, ska4fun said:

 

Actually Daiwa and Doyo gearing aluminum alloys are on par with brass gearing smoothness.

 

Eh, that's hard to believe. I mean, I know the marketing says that, but if less weight & cost was not a factor, I doubt you'd see anything but brass gears in reels. 

[garroyo130]

11 minutes ago, AmmoGuy said:

I do not believe the "skill" of assemblers plays a meaningful part in the variability of currently available "mid-tier" reels. Or at least in the type of variability we are discussing here.

 

I don't think it plays as big a part in baitcasters, but how spinning reels are shimmed can make all the difference in the world in terms of smoothness. 

[WRB]

7 minutes ago, ska4fun said:

 

Actually Daiwa and Doyo gearing aluminum alloys are on par with brass gearing smoothness.

Aluminum is a softer alloy with any anti gulling prosperities.

Aluminum can be hard anodic coated, aluminum ion vapor or titanium oxide treated to harden the surface. The issue is wear, leaded brass self lubricates for years without wear, doesn’t rely on surface hardening processes.

Tom 

[PhishLI]

20 minutes ago, AmmoGuy said:

I do not believe the "skill" of assemblers plays a meaningful part in the variability of currently available "mid-tier" reels. Or at least in the type of variability we are discussing here. I also don't think we are discussing "defective" parts. I think we are talking about variances that are within allowable tolerances, or deficiencies in mechanical designs. 

You're probably right here. I designed assembly lines for astronomically expensive products. None of it was or could be automated. Line workers needed to be conscientious and present, but QC of all associated parts was handled upstream. There was no reason for assemblers to be QCing anything.

[AmmoGuy]

10 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

You're probably right here. I designed assembly lines for astronomically expensive products. None of it was or could be automated. Line workers needed to be conscientious and present, but QC of all associated parts was handled upstream. There was no reason for assemblers to be QCing anything.

Right. 
The expectation that assemblers or line workers should/can inspect quality into a high volume production line is a poor practice. It is a no-no in most modern QMS’s. 
 

Anywho. I doubt anyone wants the thread to turn into a discussion on TQM and Deming. ?

[WRB]

Not getting into weeds on PPM QC defects happen from operator error not monitoring tool wear etc. The O.E.M. Is responsible for production QC, with commercial products the end user does final inspection.

Fresh water fishing reels are not a PPM product however Japanese mind set is a higher level Quality and pride of workmanship learned by dominating the auto business.

Tom

[GReb]

1 hour ago, Yuddzy said:

What exactly results in some reels having more noise than others within the exact same model? Gears cut not quite right? Spacing not quite correct? I've always wondered what little thing goes askew in the manufacturing process that causes this noticeable difference in noise. 

This is just a guess but I’d assume they have multiple manufacturers supplying parts and some are better than others. So the same model reel may have different guts. 

[12poundbass]

Holy smokes! It’s hot as h e l l here in Michigan, but after reading this thread I’m beginning to think it’s winter in the rest of the country! ?

[AmmoGuy]

Funny. I actually randomly stumbled across this video. 

 

[PhishLI]

26 minutes ago, WRB said:

Fresh water fishing reels are not a PPM product however Japanese mind set is a higher level Quality and pride of workmanship learned by dominating the auto business.

A little affirmation of your point. I'm going back over 30 years, so if I mush up a specific detail of this report please forgive me.

 

 The chief engineer of an R&D team I was on, who was at one time a wunderkind mechanical engineer at NASA, brought us an article to read. He loved quoting the journals. As I remember it, both Dodge and Mitsubishi were building the same transmission here and in Japan. Failure rates of the Dodge transmissions were a problem. Under inspection it was easy to see why. While the parts were in tolerance, many were cut at the end of their allowable tolerance. This condition was rampant. The lash issues accumulated to such a degree they caused failures quickly. The Mitsubishi built transmission's parts were spot on and did not use up their allowable tolerances.

 

[Choporoz]

15 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

A little affirmation of your point. I'm going back over 30 years, so if I mush up a specific detail of this report please forgive me.

 

 The chief engineer of an R&D team I was on, who was at one time a wunderkind mechanical engineer at NASA, brought us an article to read. He loved quoting the journals. As I remember it, both Dodge and Mitsubishi were building the same transmission here and in Japan. Failure rates of the Dodge transmissions were a problem. Under inspection it was easy to see why. While the parts were in tolerance, many were cut at the end of their allowable tolerance. This condition was rampant. The lash issues accumulated to such a degree they caused failures quickly. The Mitsubishi built transmission's parts were spot on and did not use up their allowable tolerances.

 

So was the machining the problem?  Or was the allowable tolerance the problem?  Hard to find fault with a process with results in 'acceptable range'