Leader too thin for FG knot?

[wanderful]

I've recently changed over to a new braid and FC setup using matching diameters, but my FG knots fail when I try to cinch it. I had zero issues on my old setup, and I'm wondering if the diameter difference had something to do with it.

New setup, matching diameters: 30# Seaguar Smackdown (.011) w/ 15# Seaguar FC Premier (.011)

Old setup, thinner braid: 20# Daiwa J-braid (.009) w/ 10# Seaguar Red (.010)

 

My old setup was barely mismatched, but is it possible that having a thinner braid helps to dig into the FC more effeciently? Could it be something else, like material type? Am I just a terrible knot-tyer, and I need to improve?

 

I've since swapped over to an alberto knot, but it hangs on my top guide when landing a fish which is kind of annoying.

[Big Rick]

I use an FG on 15 lb braid and 7 lb leader, so I don't think it's diameter that's causing your failure. I will say that I learned the hard way not to use too many loops. 16-18 is plenty. The strength and holding power of the FG is at the very beginning of the knot. So, pay extra attention to keeping the tension uniform as you build the knot. 

I've used Smackdown with an FG and it does require a perfect knot since Smackdown is so smooth and slick. But, it can be done. 

[MickD]

I do think that the thinner the leader the more likely the FG will fail.  It was developed for salt with really heavy leaders of fairly large diameter.  I cut some FG knots apart a couple years ago and found that the leader was being plastically deformed by the cinching of the knot, with grooves being formed in the leader by the braid.  It is reasonable to expect that thinner leaders don't allow the kind of deformation that I saw.

 

I'm sure some will argure  that they do it all the time and no problem, and I expect it is true.  But something about how they are doing it or what materials they are using is making it work for them.  But big picture, I believe that the thinner the leader the more likely the failure.  I am not arguing that all will fail.

 

It is my opinion that using FG's with leaders below about 15 pound test is a crap shoot.  One might ask why an FG is required by the thinner leaders anyway since many other knots will go through size 4 micros just fine anyway.  

 

[softwateronly]

2 hours ago, Big Rick said:

I use an FG on 15 lb braid and 7 lb leader, so I don't think it's diameter that's causing your failure. I will say that I learned the hard way not to use too many loops. 16-18 is plenty. The strength and holding power of the FG is at the very beginning of the knot. So, pay extra attention to keeping the tension uniform as you build the knot. 

I've used Smackdown with an FG and it does require a perfect knot since Smackdown is so smooth and slick. But, it can be done. 

 

This was my problem.  I do 3 groups of six, tightening/tugging the leader at each interval, to allow the entire knot to cinch properly at the end.  This has solved my issue.

 

scott

[wanderful]

3 hours ago, Big Rick said:

I use an FG on 15 lb braid and 7 lb leader, so I don't think it's diameter that's causing your failure. I will say that I learned the hard way not to use too many loops. 16-18 is plenty. The strength and holding power of the FG is at the very beginning of the knot. So, pay extra attention to keeping the tension uniform as you build the knot. 

I've used Smackdown with an FG and it does require a perfect knot since Smackdown is so smooth and slick. But, it can be done. 

Great advice, thank you! I will work on my tension, and try a fewer number of loops.

[wanderful]

2 hours ago, MickD said:

I do think that the thinner the leader the more likely the FG will fail.  It was developed for salt with really heavy leaders of fairly large diameter.  I cut some FG knots apart a couple years ago and found that the leader was being plastically deformed by the cinching of the knot, with grooves being formed in the leader by the braid.  It is reasonable to expect that thinner leaders don't allow the kind of deformation that I saw.

 

I'm sure some will argure  that they do it all the time and no problem, and I expect it is true.  But something about how they are doing it or what materials they are using is making it work for them.  But big picture, I believe that the thinner the leader the more likely the failure.  I am not arguing that all will fail.

 

It is my opinion that using FG's with leaders below about 15 pound test is a crap shoot.  One might ask why an FG is required by the thinner leaders anyway since many other knots will go through size 4 micros just fine anyway.  

 

Your last paragraph is a great question. I've only ever used FG, alberto, and double uni - FG is the only knot that smoothly comes through the guides for me. It could be user error, but my alberto and double uni both get snagged on the top guide edge when I'm landing a fish. I can force them through, but I love the FG's ability to smoothly run past the edge of my guide.

 

What knot would you recommend most for thinner diameters like what I'm running?

[Phelptwan]

First loop is the most important on the FG.  If that one isn't tight, the rest won't cinch down well.  The rule of thumb is the leader diameter should be thicker than the main line diameter.  If you don't know/can't measure most manufacturer's list them on the box or somewhere on their website.  

[MickD]

1 hour ago, wanderful said:

What knot would you recommend most for thinner diameters like what I'm running?

Alberto with the braid tag tied into two half hitches pulled tight.  Be sure to trim the leader tag very close.

[MickD]

11 hours ago, softwateronly said:

I will say that I learned the hard way not to use too many loops. 16-18 is plenty. The strength and holding power of the FG is at the very beginning of the knot.

I think this is a very good point.  Many times we think more is better, but in the case of the FG, there is an optimum number of weaves, and going beyond that is, I believe, deterimental rather than helping to make a strong knot.  I'm wondering whether 16 is too many.  

[newapti5]

The thinnest leader I used is 8lb fluoro, with 15lb braid, and I can still tie a secure FG knot, although it might need more time and attention.  As mentioned above, the first two knots after all the loops and right before you pull, are the key. If those two knots are not tight enough, the braid line won't cinch into the fluoro when you pull;  if too tight, the top section of the loops will have trouble cinching in, too. 

 

If tied rightly, all the braid will cinch in and change color a bit, but sometimes you'll notice on the top section of the FG knot, those loops are still sort of loose, didn't change color.  That's either because of too many loops, or because those two knots before you pull are too tight.  

[newapti5]

7 hours ago, MickD said:

I think this is a very good point.  Many times we think more is better, but in the case of the FG, there is an optimum number of weaves, and going beyond that is, I believe, deterimental rather than helping to make a strong knot.  I'm wondering whether 16 is too many.  

 

I would argue that 20 loops is fine. I usually use 20 loops, and for slick braids like Seaguar Smackdown and Ardent Gliss, I'd use 25 loops or more, depending on how slick it is.  As long as the first two knots after all the loops and before the pull, are not too tight (but tight enough for the braid to cinch in), all those loops will cinch in tightly and nicely. 

[Team9nine]

SaltStrong is one of the few that has tested this FG wrap-strength relationship, and based on their test data, 20 wraps seems to be the best baseline starting point whether using 4-strand or 8-strand braid. Only doing 14 wraps produced consistently weaker knots, and doing 30 wraps was a mixed bag of some slight gains, but some slight losses also. I personally shoot for 20-26 depending on line combo.
 

[MN Fisher]

1 hour ago, newapti5 said:

The thinnest leader I used is 8lb fluoro, with 15lb braid, and I can still tie a secure FG knot, although it might need more time and attention.

Ya - going lighter with either/both means you need to take a little more care.

 

My RZT-1000/Fury 702sf rig for general finesse work - 10#832 to 6# InvizX...haven't had the FG slip/fail yet. I run 22 turns (11 pairs), just a couple half-hitches to lock...no Rizzuto finish.

[MickD]

Good for you guys with data!  I just might go back to the FG knowing now what you have taught me.

[Lead Head]

Sounds like you switched brands of braid, if so, this could be your problem. Some braids are smoother than others. Some also have a wax-like coating. If you use your fingernails and scrape, or rough up the last few inches of braid that will be in your knot it will help it catch and lock in. After the braid has been fished for a while and is broken in you may not need to do this anymore. 

 

This may or may not be your problem, but it definitely made a difference for me when I was using FG knots.

[txchaser]

With slick braid sometimes I need to tug-tug-tug instead of steady pull. Once it starts to bite it will lock down and I can finish the steady pull. 

Sometimes wetting will actually help the dig get started. 

It's specific to the combo of lines. 

 

Try your new braid with your old leader and VV. I think your new braid is slicker, and if I recall correctly the FC Premier is going to have a harder exterior than red label. So you have some slick on slick, but it should be just fine once you get it to bite. 

 

[Revival]

Your line diameter changing shouldn’t matter like some has said.

 

I have gotten extremely confident in tying a FG with Rizzuto finish.

 

I feel like I have a solid “system” that makes it easy and no teeth required.

[Bankc]

Try cinching it as you do your weaves.  That's what I do, and without it, I've noticed sometimes the knot doesn't get tight when trying to cinch it all down at the end.  I'll give it a good tug once every four weaves.  Not a full cinch, just a good tug.  And I keep the knot sandwiched between two fingers in my left hand so it doesn't unravel.  Also, sometimes with lighter lines, it helps to do several overhand knots at the end, and flipping the orientation (direction) of each knot.  Sometimes I'll do six of these.  

 

I've used leaders as light a 4lbs (FC for crappie fishing) and not had an issue with the FG knot holding.  Also, the point about doing more weaves is a good one.  Thinner line requires more weaves than thicker line.