Mod-fast VS Fast/Xtra fast w/braid?

[JMac603]

Hey all. New here so forgive me if this topic has been beaten to death already. 

 

I'm newer (4-5 years) to bass specific angling and really paying attention to rod actions and specific presentations. I've noticed (and would like to know if this is true because I'm a newby, true in general, or if it's just me) that mod-fast rods with braid to a leader pair VERY nicely for catch rate VS fast/xtra fast rods with braid to leader. I found TFO rods a couple of years ago and really enjoy their Professional series. I wanted to try moving into a better quality rod and found St. Croix's Avid X series at a local shop. I fish tubes a lot so throwing a tube on either rod with braid to leader was my litmus test. I lose quite a few fish on the St. Croix (xtra fast) and land the overwhelming majority with my TFO (mod-fast). I don't do much buying online and am pretty fortunate to have a local shop that carries these two companies (though it seems they stopped with TFO now). I've yet to try throwing straight mono on the St. Croix to see if I need more "give" in the setup to land them. Am I cooking with heat here or just stirring a cold pot?

 

Jon

[J Francho]

You didn't describe what power you are matching with what baits.  YOu might be over powering the fish.  I use AC Avid 6-3 MLXF and 6-3 MXF for tubes and do not have an issue with losing fish.  I probably err a little on the heavy side for weights of the baits, and the rod rating.  I also use straight fluoro.  Much simpler than braid to a leader for a beginner.

[JMac603]

5 minutes ago, J Francho said:

You didn't describe what power you are matching with what baits.  YOu might be over powering the fish.  I use AC Avid 6-3 MLXF and 6-3 MXF for tubes and do not have an issue with losing fish.  I probably err a little on the heavy side for weights of the baits, and the rod rating.  I also use straight fluoro.  Much simpler than braid to a leader for a beginner.

Ahh yes...both are Medium power. The TFO is 7' and the Avid X is 6' 8". 

[Deleted account]

When fishing with braid, the rod is going to be asked to take on more of the job of shock absorption, and it's related angler error correction, so yes, slower and less powerful rods are called for for the same presentations than with monofilament lines. This of course refers to the actual action and power of the rod, and not what the manufacturer labels it.

[LionHeart]

Not sure what you mean by having more give to land them but reckon you are missing fish.  If you aren't getting the hook properly set, try to adjust your hook setting technique.  Switching to braid may also help because it removes the massive line stretch from the equation.  

 

If you are losing fish at the boat or on the retrieve, again focus on keeping slack out of the line during this time.  A rod with a more bendy tip section makes this easier to accomplish but doesn't do all the work for you.

 

Personally, I like to use braid to leader with every rod I have because it keeps things fairly predictable.  The give is in my rod only as opposed to using mono/flour where the give is also in my line and increases based on the amount of line I have in the water.  What I mean to say is the hook setting authority is determined by my technique and the rod, while if using mono/flour, it is also determined by the line stretch which varies by the length of line.  

 

I feel like that could have been said better, but I hope you get what I meant.  Mod fast with braid is an excellent choice for just about everything but treble hook lures.

[dodgeguy]

If you are losing fish at the boat get a net.extra fast is basically for soft plastics. I use Dobyns Sierra Series fast for everything else. They run softer and more forgiving. St.croix is generally stiffer. I still have yet to figure out why St.croix went to substandard guides on the Avid x. IMHO they should be at least Fuji alconite.  Also get rid of the leader. Unless your in gin clear water with no weeds you don't need it and if you are I would use mono or flouro.

[JMac603]

5 hours ago, LionHeart said:

Not sure what you mean by having more give to land them but reckon you are missing fish.  If you aren't getting the hook properly set, try to adjust your hook setting technique.  Switching to braid may also help because it removes the massive line stretch from the equation.  

 

If you are losing fish at the boat or on the retrieve, again focus on keeping slack out of the line during this time.  A rod with a more bendy tip section makes this easier to accomplish but doesn't do all the work for you.

 

Personally, I like to use braid to leader with every rod I have because it keeps things fairly predictable.  The give is in my rod only as opposed to using mono/flour where the give is also in my line and increases based on the amount of line I have in the water.  What I mean to say is the hook setting authority is determined by my technique and the rod, while if using mono/flour, it is also determined by the line stretch which varies by the length of line.  

 

I feel like that could have been said better, but I hope you get what I meant.  Mod fast with braid is an excellent choice for just about everything but treble hook lures.

I get ya. I land the vast majority of them on the TFO mod-fast rod so I think my hook set is fine as I'm not setting any less with the xtra fast St. Croix. It's just that when they fight or jump they seem to shake it easier with the St. Croix. 

 

4 hours ago, dodgeguy said:

If you are losing fish at the boat get a net.extra fast is basically for soft plastics. I use Dobyns Sierra Series fast for everything else. They run softer and more forgiving. St.croix is generally stiffer. I still have yet to figure out why St.croix went to substandard guides on the Avid x. IMHO they should be at least Fuji alconite.  Also get rid of the leader. Unless your in gin clear water with no weeds you don't need it and if you are I would use mono or flouro.

I really don't know what a quality guide is versus a substandard. I have an Avid X in a casting rod I run with mono for most moving baits and have had few issues. The spinning rod with braid to leader (my tube rod) is where I'm losing them. What should I watch for on the guides?

[dodgeguy]

Reaserch guides. You'll find out Fuji is the bench mark. Aluminum oxide are the softest Sometimes braid grooves them. Alconite or zirconium is my h better and no problem with braid. Sic is next. Fuji makes torsite also which is the absolute top. 

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

I haven’t found the need to alter rod choice when using braid. Just modify the hookset a little. No need to jack them every time in every circumstance. Probably no need for the leader 90% of the time either. 

[OkobojiEagle]

10 minutes ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

I haven’t found the need to alter rod choice when using braid. Just modify the hookset a little. No need to jack them every time in every circumstance. Probably no need for the leader 90% of the time either. 

And the choir sang "AMEN"...

 

oe

[Boomstick]

You can get away with a more moderate rod using braid, but often it's a matter if a balance between power and action as well plus all manufacturers ratings of power and action is a little bit different. I have rarely had to change rods to changing from mono or fluoro to braid, but I tend to use the lowest rod power I can get away with generally where others always go a step up, at which point using braid might be overpowering the fish pretty quickly.

The Avid X line does tend to run a little on the heavier side, especially once you get into medium and higher powers. I haven't had any issues with my Avid X ML/XF spinning rod with braid, but some of the mediums are closer to medium heavys and I see how that could start to overpower fish with braid pretty fast.

[Catt]

23 hours ago, OkobojiEagle said:

And the choir sang "AMEN"...

 

oe

 

Yes Amen ?

 

Personally I prefer X-Fast, you have realise what's in your hands.

[Jrob78]

I would try mono or copoly on your St. Croix and see if the added stretch helps balance out the x-fast rod a little bit.

 

I also agree that using leaders in your situation is probably unnecessary and just adds additional knots that can fail.

[txchaser]

8 hours ago, Boomstick said:

The Avid X line does tend to run a little on the heavier side, especially once you get into medium and higher powers. I haven't had any issues with my Avid X ML/XF spinning rod with braid, but some of the mediums are closer to medium heavys and I see how that could start to overpower fish with braid pretty fast.

I bought an Avid-X MH spinning rod, and it's a broomstick to me. Feels like a H/F.

Anyway try using a much longer leader, such that when your fish is at the boat the connection knot is always in the reel. I'd bet it won't make a huge difference, but it's 100% worth a try. 

[JMac603]

5 hours ago, Jrob78 said:

I would try mono or copoly on your St. Croix and see if the added stretch helps balance out the x-fast rod a little bit.

 

I also agree that using leaders in your situation is probably unnecessary and just adds additional knots that can fail.

 

I'll be trying straight mono on the spinning setup to see how that does me. Curious to know if I just don't know how to hookset and work a fish with such a fast rod. It's ALL tip.

[Jrob78]

6 hours ago, JMac603 said:

 

I'll be trying straight mono on the spinning setup to see how that does me. Curious to know if I just don't know how to hookset and work a fish with such a fast rod. It's ALL tip.

I would assume you're doing something different with your hookset on the faster rod. Maybe you're easing up a little because it feels like you hit resistance faster, where with the slower rod you have more give and feel comfortable laying into it more. I don't know, just a thought. 

 

If you're using the same type of baits/rigs and everything else is the same besides the rods, I couldn't imagine the rod itself is causing you to lose fish, it's something you're doing different. I think the mono might solve your problem. Good luck

[JMac603]

On 6/9/2022 at 11:00 AM, Jrob78 said:

I would assume you're doing something different with your hookset on the faster rod. Maybe you're easing up a little because it feels like you hit resistance faster, where with the slower rod you have more give and feel comfortable laying into it more. I don't know, just a thought. 

 

If you're using the same type of baits/rigs and everything else is the same besides the rods, I couldn't imagine the rod itself is causing you to lose fish, it's something you're doing different. I think the mono might solve your problem. Good luck

I put straight .009 ultragreen on and landed all I felt. Too early to say for sure but I think you're right that I'm letting up during the hook set. I'm not someone who swings for the fences as I truly prefer fine wire hooks and finesse presentations. With what I was used to (braid and the TFO) a tug and reeling down on em sticks em good. I'm sure it's me now based on the replies. I enjoy the feel of the Avid X though it's not their best rod, its my best rod

[Deephaven]

The 6'8" MXF SC is a killer rod.  Pay attention to where in the retrieve you lose the fish as that will let you know how to correct it.  I have 4 of those blanks and run braid on them all and have no problems keeping fish buttoned on them.

[JMac603]

3 hours ago, Deephaven said:

The 6'8" MXF SC is a killer rod.  Pay attention to where in the retrieve you lose the fish as that will let you know how to correct it.  I have 4 of those blanks and run braid on them all and have no problems keeping fish buttoned on them.

Lose them almost immediately. They're "on", start reeling, then they come off when they realize they're hooked and really start the fight. I've never had such a fast tip rod. 

[dodgeguy]

31 minutes ago, JMac603 said:

Lose them almost immediately. They're "on", start reeling, then they come off when they realize they're hooked and really start the fight. I've never had such a fast tip rod. 

Maybe the hook wasn't in their mouth. You said you were using tubes ? Is this with an exposed hook ? You're conclusion of getting a better hooksets with mono makes no sense. More than likely the baits not totally in their mouth. 

[JMac603]

1 hour ago, dodgeguy said:

Maybe the hook wasn't in their mouth. You said you were using tubes ? Is this with an exposed hook ? You're conclusion of getting a better hooksets with mono makes no sense. More than likely the baits not totally in their mouth. 

Open hooks - yes. It would be strange that I land the same bait on a rod I'm familiar with and a HIGH percentage not with a different rod. The only thing - if this is the case - that I could think is if I'm feeling more with the Avid than what I'm used to and trying to set too soon. I tend to overthink/over analyze these things.  

[dodgeguy]

52 minutes ago, JMac603 said:

Open hooks - yes. It would be strange that I land the same bait on a rod I'm familiar with and a HIGH percentage not with a different rod. The only thing - if this is the case - that I could think is if I'm feeling more with the Avid than what I'm used to and trying to set too soon. I tend to overthink/over analyze these things.  

Possible 

[Deephaven]

4 hours ago, dodgeguy said:

Maybe the hook wasn't in their mouth. You said you were using tubes ? Is this with an exposed hook ? You're conclusion of getting a better hooksets with mono makes no sense. More than likely the baits not totally in their mouth. 

Either you are pulling it right out of their mouth or not setting the hook I bet.  

 

Personally I'd try to lay into them a bit more.  Tube hooks are robust enough to take it and it is just a M rod so cross their eyes and start reeling and see if it gets better.