2nd Rod Build (lightweight, finesse, spin)

[RipHair]

Sorry it's been quite a while since I've posted but I finally got around to finishing my second rod and I'm quite happy with how this one turned out.

 

American Tackle AT841-3 Mag Bass Travel Rod Blank

 

Fuji KL AC Gray Alconite 16H - 8H - 5.5M
Fuji KB AC Gray Alconite 4mm
Fuji KT AC Gray Alconite 4mm
Fuji Micro Spinning Top LG - Alconite 4mm / 4.5 (~1.8mm)

 

Fuji SK2 Graphite Hood with Graphite Nut SKSS - Size 17
Fuji SK2 Spinning Body SKSS - Size 17
Fuji Threaded Barrel for SK2 Hoods SKPSN - Size 17

RGK Rear Split-Grip with Rubberized Cork for Fuji SK2 Spinning Reel Seat

Butt Grip for Fuji Split Grip SK2 Reel Seats

 

Wrapped using Size A Fuji Color #14 Gold and Flex Coat Lite.

 

Total weight comes in at 85g or 3oz.

 

I went with an AT831-3 as it's quite light and it's primary purpose is for more finesse with 6-8lb fluoro. I plan on fishing this with mostly weightless senkos, light T-rigs, maybe get into some BFS stuff too.

 

Also, in comparison to the Rainshadow RX6 travel, I really like how this is matte black/dark gray instead of glossy gray. I think it looks a lot better to me.

 

My next build is going a casting setup on a Rainshadow SB841-3. Even though I think they are technically "rated" the same way, the AT831-3 feels way lighter than the SB841-3. For that build I plan on using the RV reverse 1st guide, then 4mm to the tip.

 

Thanks again for everyone's help here teaching me how to build my own rods. I'm super happy with the results and can't wait to fish these.

 

[MikeK]

How did you determine your guide spacing?

[RipHair]

8 minutes ago, MikeK said:

How did you determine your guide spacing?

Used a fixed offset for the first reduction guide, got it from another thread or anglers resource.com. Remainder we're carefully done using static load testing.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

The stripper, reduction guides and choke guide should bullseye when you sight through them. Start at 19-20” from  reel face. 

[RipHair]

51 minutes ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

The stripper, reduction guides and choke guide should bullseye when you sight through them. Start at 19-20” from  reel face. 

I think it was actually this good man himself I got the advice from. And sure enough the first stripper guide is exactly 20" from the reel face. Thanks again!

 

On another topic, I've been having a lot of fun reading through the Looking to build the lightest spinning rod possible thread. Since this bad boy clocks in at exactly 85g/3oz and the rod starting weight is 2.2oz, not sure how I managed to keep it that light. My only guess is either the stuff I stuck on was only 0.8oz or maybe the rod was actually a bit lighter (I don't think I checked it).

 

A few things I learned from the other thread too I wish I could have applied to this build:

 

1. I like the idea of using Permagloss instead of two-part epoxy. Granted I used Flex Coat Lite but I as well hate footballs and I want the absolute minimum to keep those guides on there regardless of appearances or feel.

 

2. I wrapped too much before the ramp. Even though I grinded those feet down, I think I must have had like 4-10 wraps before going up the feet. Next time I will try to get 1-3 wraps only.

 

3. I didn't do my homework and really understand locking and blocking wraps @MickD tried to teach me. I merely just started wrapping behind the guide 5-8 times as you can see without locking (wrapping around the guide itself!). So I basically wasted a bunch of wraps and epoxy (and therefore weight). @MickD I think you mentioned you do the locking but don't bother with blocking? If so, how do you do this? Do you lock-wrap 3 times around the guide then do a few more wraps on the foot then pull through? Or do you pull-through directly after the last locking wrap?

 

4. I'm not sure how much glue to use when gluing the already heavy reel seats and cork. But I'd be curious to use as little as possible as I suspect a lot of the bulk weight comes from there, granted though it's in a spot that doesn't really matter.

 

5. I think I'll probably just go with Titanium + SiC guides here on out that I have had more practice - or at least Ti for the KTs and tip-top.

 

Also question for the CCS crew here: is it too late to do CCS measurements with all this stuff on the rod or does the rod blank really have to have nothing on it?

[RipHair]

I went ahead and took the CCS measurements for this rod:

 

ERN=12.15

AA=73.7

 

Since I haven't fished her yet, I have no idea what this actually means but would be curious to hear about others with similar setups. As mentioned in my previous posts I plan on using this as finesse and weightless 5" senkos wacky, T-rigs, whatever else that is light for bass in clear NE lakes.

[RipHair]

Oh yeah, one more question: since I mentioned I much prefer the matte finish on this AT rod compared to the Rainshadow clear coat finish, is it possible to sand down the Rainshadow to make it matte?

[MickD]

Something is funny about the CCS measurments or the blank itself- 12 is very light power and 73 is moderate action, not what most would call "mag bass."  ??  The CCS numbers are static numbers and the addition of guides and grips/etc will not affect them.

 

You can sand down any blank to make it matte, but it will probably end up a blacker color.  You have to be careful not to go too far with the sanding.  I would leave it alone and build another rod with matte blank.  One can never have too many rods.  Like women's shoes and purses.  Each has its place and reason for being.

 

Regarding gluing seats, this is the exact wrong place to worry about weight.  Most factory rod failures, in my experience, are due to insufficient epoxy between the seat or grip and the blank.  I never skimp and have never had a failure.  The weight here will be very minor and will not affect the power or action or recovery time of the rod.  Weight is important out on the blank, but not much at the butt.

 

My way of locking is to wrap the last 3 wraps aroung the eye of the guide, then do a pull through.  At times I do use wraps on the other side of the junction of the eye and foot, depends on whether I can make them cleanly with no gaps or not.  Depends somewhat on the design of the guide and whether the blocking wraps can be done without gapping.  Hard to explain.  

 

To make a 2.2 ounce blank into a 3 oz rod is certainly surprising.  I think the skeleton seat must be very light.  The guides are probably about .15, cork about .5.  Doesn't leave much room for the seat and wraps/epoxy/ (but that will be minor, probably .15 or less, I think)   I doubt if that light a power blank actually weighs 2.2.  The Rainshadow blank is much more powerful and weighs 2.2 if I remember right. 

 

Welcome to the club!

[Chris Catignani]

On 6/1/2022 at 8:58 AM, RipHair said:

I went with an AT831-3....

I built a rod on the same blank....I used all AT guides and reelseat.

[RipHair]

2 hours ago, MickD said:

Something is funny about the CCS measurments or the blank itself- 12 is very light power and 73 is moderate action, not what most would call "mag bass."  ??  The CCS numbers are static numbers and the addition of guides and grips/etc will not affect them.

 

The way I went about it was I started with the rod being suspended horizontally by it's reel seat. I measured the distance of the tip to the floor to be X, length of the rod is 7' so 7 * 12" = 84" / 3 = 28" so I added 112 pennies to a ziplock attached to the tiptop that made the tip deflect X - 28" from the floor. 112 pennies = ERN 12.15 if I looked it up correctly?

 

To be sure, this rod is light years more "whippy" than either my SB843-3, SB841-3. In our other thread, I had measured SB841-3 to be 19.1-82 so indeed it looks as though this AT841-3 is much more light and certainly more moderate than the SB841-3.

 

2 hours ago, MickD said:

You can sand down any blank to make it matte, but it will probably end up a blacker color.  You have to be careful not to go too far with the sanding.  I would leave it alone and build another rod with matte blank.  One can never have too many rods.  Like women's shoes and purses.  Each has its place and reason for being.

What grit(s) sandpaper would you recommend for doing so? It's too late to sand this rod down as I already got the seat and cork glued but I might try it in the future if I ever get another one of these glossy rods. Also, remember travel rods are quite slim pickings! I think also the MHX blanks have the same kind of non-matte finish as well.

2 hours ago, MickD said:

 

Regarding gluing seats, this is the exact wrong place to worry about weight.  Most factory rod failures, in my experience, are due to insufficient epoxy between the seat or grip and the blank.  I never skimp and have never had a failure.  The weight here will be very minor and will not affect the power or action or recovery time of the rod.  Weight is important out on the blank, but not much at the butt.

 

My way of locking is to wrap the last 3 wraps aroung the eye of the guide, then do a pull through.  At times I do use wraps on the other side of the junction of the eye and foot, depends on whether I can make them cleanly with no gaps or not.  Depends somewhat on the design of the guide and whether the blocking wraps can be done without gapping.  Hard to explain.  

 

To make a 2.2 ounce blank into a 3 oz rod is certainly surprising.  I think the skeleton seat must be very light.  The guides are probably about .15, cork about .5.  Doesn't leave much room for the seat and wraps/epoxy/ (but that will be minor, probably .15 or less, I think)   I doubt if that light a power blank actually weighs 2.2.  The Rainshadow blank is much more powerful and weighs 2.2 if I remember right. 

 

Welcome to the club!

 

1 hour ago, Chris Catignani said:

I built a rod on the same blank....I used all AT guides and reelseat.

Wow, you really made that one look nice! I love the cork work compared to my plain-Jane Fuji cork. I wish I could rig something up to spin my own cork. I take it your thread wraps are CP? Did you use Permagloss or lite build epoxy? It looks very low-profile which is precisely the look I'm going for. What reel seat is that? I wonder if it's lighter than the Fuji splits I've been using. Lastly, how did you get that symbol in between? It almost looks like some Japanese symbol of some sorts.

 

From the reply with @MickD are you able to get CCS measurements on your build to see if they match my measured ERN of 12.15 and AA of 73?

 

[Chris Catignani]

33 minutes ago, RipHair said:

Wow, you really made that one look nice! I love the cork work compared to my plain-Jane Fuji cork. I wish I could rig something up to spin my own cork. I take it your thread wraps are CP? Did you use Permagloss or lite build epoxy? It looks very low-profile which is precisely the look I'm going for. What reel seat is that? I wonder if it's lighter than the Fuji splits I've been using. Lastly, how did you get that symbol in between? It almost looks like some Japanese symbol of some sorts.

It just an old spool of NCP thread...Using FC High Build.

The seat is the Bravo2S G2.

The symbol is the logo for A/T microwave guides.

[MickD]

38 minutes ago, RipHair said:

it looks as though this AT841-3 is much more light and certainly more moderate than the SB841-3.

I think you did the right process and got the right answer.  I expect that the blank did not weigh 2.2 oz.

42 minutes ago, RipHair said:

I had measured SB841-3 to be 19.1-82 so indeed it looks as though this AT841-3 is much more light and certainly more moderate than the SB841-3.

I got 20 ERN and 82 AA on that blank.

[RipHair]

3 minutes ago, MickD said:

I think you did the right process and got the right answer.  I expect that the blank did not weigh 2.2 oz.

Based on the data we have on this rod do you think it'll fish ok for weightless 5" senkos, weighted t-rigs up to 1/8oz weight? A bit worried about hook setting power... Guess maybe why this AT was the cheapest of all travel options.

[MickD]

The SB841-3 is a very nice blank.  I use mine for all kinds of things, from light bonefish jigs to small cranks to finesse.  It does a good job an all.  It happens to be a surprisingly  fast recovery blank having a true natural frequency close to "premium" blanks even though it is RX6.  

Just now, RipHair said:

Based on the data we have on this rod do you think it'll fish ok for weightless 5" senkos, weighted t-rigs up to 1/8oz weight? A bit worried about hook setting power... Guess maybe why this AT was the cheapest of all travel options.

I think your worries are well founded.  The RS would be better.  I think what you have is a decent drop shot or Ned rig rod (talking the AT ERN 12).  A recent drop shot blank from NFC was called "medium" power, and it's ERN is about 12, too.  No way would I call a 12 "medium" power.

 

[Chris Catignani]

1 hour ago, RipHair said:

I wish I could rig something up to spin my own cork.

 

@RipHair I do all my cork by hand...no lathe.

[RipHair]

1 hour ago, Chris Catignani said:

@RipHair I do all my cork by hand...no lathe.

Do you have any posts that reference how you do it? I'd love to give it a try if you don't need any serious equipment (I live in a doggone apartment).

[MickD]

If you have a drill press you can easily and cheaply make a rig to turn it into what amounts to a vertical lathe to safely and accurately turn softer materials like cork and EVA.  If you need details email me.

 

There are many proposals to turn a drill-driver into a makeshift lathe, but that is very crude compared to what a drill press can do.

 

Just noticed the "doggoned apartment" part of the post.  Probably no drill press.

[MikeK]

I have an 841-3 in the blank rack.  Measured weight is 1.87 oz and CCS IP is 355 grams.

[MickD]

Can't find my chart, what ERN is 355? thanks

[MikeK]

Don't know . . . ERN is for fly rods ?

[RipHair]

Took me a while to find this chart but I feel this is by far the best one: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KrbaZnIAOxhyli7O3f3WqUpvYzyzlXCB/view

 

Also, I owe this thread an apology. It would appear my first CCS measurement may have suffered 2 sources of bias: 1) I had originally wedged the butt end of the rod into an open dresser drawer which may have thrown things off because I just got a new measurement under a more controlled setup where I stuck the butt end under a heavy object and ensured the rod again was 0deg (perfectly level). 2) I merely counted pennies (112 to be exact) and it seems as though weights of pennies and rolls of pennies may not be very consistent.

 

I redid the test again twice, each time using a different surface and object and got similar results so I'm fairly confident these are the more accurate CCS representation of this rod:

 

1st Measurement:

AA=77.3

grams: 346

ERN: 13.7

 

2nd Measurement:

AA=77.6

grams: 353

ERN: 13.8

 

Also, the above IP in grams also concurs with @MikeK's results above. Using the linked table it would appear an IP of 355g translates into an ERN of roughly 13.8 as well.

 

Also FWIW, if you use pennies or rolls of pennies, just make sure you actually measure the end result. In my case, I used a ziplock + string and stuck 2 rolls of pennies in and then individual pennies to get to the target deflection point. I then weighed the whole shebang on a scale to get grams - a bit better than counting pennies.

 

Curiously enough, measuring each roll yielded one being 131g and the other 137g. ?‍♂️

 

Now.... with these *new* results, how are we looking @MickD? Still think she can only be relegated to a mere drop shot/ned rig?

 

[RipHair]

SB843-3 (my first build), just re-measured:

 

AA: 75.2

IP: 675g

ERN: 22.7

 

SB841-3 (the next build):

 

AA: 83.1

IP: 609g

ERN: 20.92

 

I think what's interesting to note here compared with the AT831-3 is that even though the AT841-3 is much lighter power-wise, it's AA is less than the much heavier SB841-3.

 

It will be really interesting to take all of these rods out and fish them for a good weekend with different lures. My hunch is the AT841-3 will be great for weightless senkos, maybe T-rigs up to 1/8oz weight, hopefully creatures too, ned rigs, drop shot - overall finesse with spinning reel (will prob be my only spin setup). Hopefully I can skip wacky rigs with it too. Gonna throw 6-8lb tatsu on this spin setup.

 

SB841-3 can hopefully still do weightless senkos, and all of the above but also some buzz-baits, maybe frogs? Odd crankbait maybe? Will be 8-10lb fluoro bait casting on my Scorpion DC 8.1:1.

 

SB843-3 can hopefully still do all the above plus weightless senkos. But will use for heavier stuff like frogs, mepps #5 musky killers for muskies, use it in Okeechobee and heavier cover.

 

One other thought now that I'm on my 3rd build: my original plan was to buy the Orochi XXX F4-610K 4P which has a similar "rating" to the SB843-3 but weighs 145g instead of my 99g complete build. It retails for 25000YEN ~ $200 USD. Anyone know anything about it and how my SB843-3 build might compare? Looking at the pics it looks like the F4-610K 4P uses the Fuji fazlite guides compared to my AC grey alconite. I also used 5mm guides the whole way and the RV first stripper. Here is the build link:

 

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

You have to use Pennies of a certain mint to get the weight right. They vary over the years. You want shiny pennies minted after 1996. 

[MickD]

I have read elsewhere, posted by an expert in CCS, that all pennies post 1986 weigh 2.5 grams.  Of course you don't even need pennies, they are handy, but all you need is to know the weight.  For heavier power rods I have bags of .30 caliber bullets that weigh 300 grams.  Whatever one uses, I suggest writing the weight, verified by actual weighing, on the bags. Small scales are available on Amazon for less than $15.

 

Cell phones with a level app and electronic levels are really handy and accurate for measuring the AA, much better than trying to use the CCS angle chart.  

[Chris Catignani]

11 hours ago, MickD said:

I have read elsewhere, posted by an expert in CCS, that all pennies post 1986 weigh 2.5 grams.  Of course you don't even need pennies, they are handy, but all you need is to know the weight.  For heavier power rods I have bags of .30 caliber bullets that weigh 300 grams.  Whatever one uses, I suggest writing the weight, verified by actual weighing, on the bags. Small scales are available on Amazon for less than $15.

 

Cell phones with a level app and electronic levels are really handy and accurate for measuring the AA, much better than trying to use the CCS angle chart.  

1982 is the year they switch pennies from copper to mostly  zinc...the take away here is what @MickD said. "Verify by actual weighing".