Alberto knot question: knot cuts through leader

[voxborealis]

This may be a dumb question, or maybe just a simple question from a dumb angler! I use braid main line, generally light (10# or 20# braid), connected to a mono leader of lower test strength, e.g 15# mono leader to 20# braid main. I do this so that mono serves as a break-off, so if I get snagged I don't leave potentially a big trail of braid in the water. Plus the mono is usually slightly lower visibility than the braid. Anyway, I connect the leader to main using an Alberto knot, and I think that I have gotten pretty good at tying these. However, a couple of times I have had the line break exactly at the Alberto knot, for example one time on a cast (sent the lure and leader into orbit), another time when a fish was pulling the line and I set the hook and started to reel in. The knots did not "fail" or come unraveled. Instead, the knot was completely intact at the end of the main line, but the mono was broken off right beneath the knot. 

 

I suppose my question, is the braid actually cutting into the mono and causing the break? If so, am I sometimes doing something wrong when tying my Alberto knots (like cinching them too tightly, or messing up the weave)? Is this something that commonly happens with this kind of knot?

[LCG]

Are you wetting the knot before cinching down the knot? 

[MickD]

If you are wetting the knot and tying it well then I suspect fragile FC is the issue.  Change to mono or a leader grade FC.  I use Hitena fly tippet material and have never had what you describe happen.

 

I believe leader grade FC is tougher and it usually is stiffer, so tangles less with some lures like blades.

[fin]

Look at the knot real closely after you tie it, like with a magnifying glass. Sometimes you can see the mono is stressed/curled right below the knot. I think it comes from the way you weave. Like @LCG said, wetting your knot will make that less likely to happen, but if the weave is binding, it can still damage your mono even if wet. It should be real easy to tighten. If it's hard to tighten, you're probably not weaving it just right.

 

The Alberto can be a little finicky - there are several little details in the way you tie it that can have an effect on it. Look at it real close after tying. Problems are always visible, if you look close enough. I sometimes use  200+ reader glasses to check it. If it looks imperfect, just cut and re-tie.

 

You might be wrapping it too tight, or you might be wrapping it too long in length.

 

I don’t think it can be overtightened, but you can stress the mono when you reach its limits. There’s no need to tighten it past the point the loops are closed.

[MickD]

I have had trouble with the Alberto when I don't really tighten it hard.  I now tighten it very tightly, both pulling on the working lines and especially the leader tag end to tightly close its loop.   I've added two half hitches of the braid tag end to prevent unravelling, which occasionally happened even though I was sure  I was tying correctly.  But I use quality FC, and have never had a failure like the OP describes.  

 

It could be our different definitions of what is "tight," but I think recommending not setting the knot very tightly is inviting unravelling.  

[voxborealis]

Thanks for the feedback. To be honest, I don't always wet the not, or at least do not wet it consistently enough, before cinching. And I also don't inspect closely after tying. So pretty sure I have been sometimes stressing the mono leader with some bad knot tying habits. (And also, I just use regular mono line for the leader rather than leader-quality FC). 

[Deleted account]

This knot can fail if it isn't cinched down tight enough, ironically if too many wraps are used, and of course if one insists on using FC. The guy that taught it to the guy that taught it to Alberto clued me in on it.

[fin]

4 hours ago, MickD said:

I think recommending not setting the knot very tightly is inviting unravelling.  

 

You tighten the Alberto twice, once for the tag and once for the main line. If you don't tighten them both, in the right order, or don't tighten them enough, and trim the tag too close, yes, you can be inviting failure, but the danger is more from coming untied than breaking.

 

The point I was trying to make was that it should tighten easily when first pulling the tag end. If it binds up when tightening, you've already got a problem.

[MickD]

but the danger is more from coming untied than breaking.

 

That is the problem I was now and then having, but didn't understand it.  Adding the two tightly set half hitches solves it and doesn't make the knot any bigger.

[Jigfishn10]

5 hours ago, Deleted account said:

This knot can fail if it isn't cinched down tight enough, ironically if too many wraps are used, and of course if one insists on using FC. The guy that taught it to the guy that taught it to Alberto clued me in on it.

Can't tie a knot, tie a lot?  

 

Good to know. Thanks.

[Deleted account]

2 hours ago, fin said:

You tighten the Alberto twice, once for the tag and once for the main line. If you don't tighten them both, in the right order, or don't tighten them enough, and trim the tag too close, yes, you can be inviting failure, but the danger is more from coming untied than breaking.

 

The point I was trying to make was that it should tighten easily when first pulling the tag end. If it binds up when tightening, you've already got a problem.

The best way to obtain a strong knot is to once wrapped and lubed, cinch everything slowly until it is snug with the braid being 1-2 mm above the loop formed by the leader, which should all but be closed by now (you can roll the knot in your fingers as you do this), then grab the main line and leader, and cinch those down quickly, that will essentially lock the knot in it's final position, now you can snug the leader tag and main line tag with a steady pull on each. I trim the leader flush with no tag, and wrap 2 or 3 half hitches in opposing directions with the braid tag, and clip flush, the last half hitch might come undone after a while, but it won't affect anything. 

[fin]

I've never heard the double hitch thing. I'll have to try that.

 

I went through phases of trimming the tag short, but it seems like every time I have one come untied, it's when I've trimmed the tag really short. I quit doing it because it's not really necessary with 10# on a spinning rod, which is what I'm using almost always. If you don't pull that loop all the way closed and you don't notice there's a tiny gap, it can slip a little, and that short tag will kill you.

[MickD]

2 hours ago, Deleted account said:

and wrap 2 or 3 half hitches in opposing directions with the braid tag, and clip flush, the last half hitch might come undone after a while, but it won't affect anything. 

We are on the same page.  I started adding the half hitches after a few mystery failures, unravelling, based on my experience of never being able to untangle a tight knot on my braid line.  I figured if I cannot get one loose, maybe Mother Nature cannot either.  

 

[lynxcat]

I put the tag back through five times to secure the knot at the end. It’s made all the difference. I used to only do it once or twice. 

[fin]

I’ve been experimenting a bit since reading this thread, and one thing that I’ve found that seems helpful is when you’re wrapping in the first direction, wrap it tight, but wrap it long, so your wrap is like an inch long and wrapped tight around the leader. Then when you come back in the other direction, wrap it very loose, and with every revolution, move your thumb and finger up to hold the last loop in place. When you cinch it, it is smooth as silk.

 

I’ve also been doing the double-hitch thing, and although I’m not certain it’s doing anything, it’s simple and it’s definitely not hurting anything.

[00bullitt]

I can tell you when I tie it if it will break or not. If you cinch the braid down and then pull the leader and it slips through AT ALL.....retie. That friction just blew the leader strength right at the connection.

 

I wrap both leader tag ends around one index finger and the braid main line around the other a few times and pull it down slow until tight. I do not wet my Albertos as its not designed to slip AT ALL.

Braid should bite into leader and prevent any slip from occurring.

 

Now, I did see someting here that was interesting that I'm gonna try. I will run my final tag end through the loop twice before cinching and see how that works.

[Maggiesmaster]

I’ve found that the Shin knot is easier to tie than the Alberto, and the loops don’t overlap. I always wet the knot before tightening. Never have tried the two half hitches after the knot, but that sounds like a good idea.